Drambo Mute Switching Issue

Gravitas

@rs2000 said:

@Gravitas said:

@rs2000 said:

@bangzero said:

@Gravitas said:
You can definitely map two cc messages or midi notes to one knob
or button

howso? midi learn replaces existing mappings, right?

Yes.

Then it maybe a fortunate bug.
As mentioned in my earlier comment I do it all the time.

Really?
Can you edit the two mappings on the same knob?

I don’t think so.
Truthfully, I haven’t tried yet.

rs2000

@LeonS said:
I can feel the lag when jamming. Only using the little project, on ipad 9th. I could be wrong because i dont fully understand the project, but if you increase the delay on the Feedback modules, you can notice it and it only goes down to 10ms minimum.

Surely there must be some delay when sending stuff back the wrong way right to left? My understanding is limited admittedly.

Yes. Simply said, feedback paths have to be processed in the next time slot which is 10ms later.

I can definitely feel it tho, 10ms is quite big when doing very fast punch ins. I notice it most when swapping from the simple CC method I outlined above to that method, then its really obvious.

Anyone have a controller they can map CCs and choose toggle or momentary (on the controller itself) and set on and off values independently? Maybe can test the little project I posted above and compare.

I am quite sensitive to latency tho, I play the drums and get annoyed even with 7-10ms of latency. Its funny because 15-20 years ago I probably wouldn't have noticed, my ears and sense of timing have improved over the years (from absolutely rubbish to just rhythmically challenged ;D )

Honestly, if you're that sensitive to timing then a multichannel audio interface and switching audio on the analog side is a better idea for sure. It's not only the delay introduced by feedback but also the delay that's added by the patch, the audio buffer and a tiny amount added by the MIDI communication. What you notice can easily be 20 or 30ms in the end.

You can measure the total latency by putting your headphones close to the MIDI controller, hit the un-mute pad with high velocity and record both the mechanical sound and the headphones audio with a microphone (like an iPhone) and check with a wave editor how far both signals are apart.

LeonS

I'm currently on an iPad 9th, hoping to upgrade to the new M2 Pro when it comes out, saving up currently.

I'm building a GrooveBox in Drambo. Five devices control it:

LaunchControl XL
LaunchKey Mini MK3
LaunchPad Mini MK3
Circuit Tracks
Custom made Triple Crossfader (bought on ebay)

It's all mounted on one small board, it's portable (just - I can sit with it on my lap on the couch), powered by one plug or usb powerbank. When I bring it over to my studio area, I plug in one USB to the hub on the board, and I can pipe 12 channels of audio into it.

I've gone through hundreds of iterations of projects and mappings for all the controllers to make it all as good as possible.

I agree about the latency thing, that's why I've been refining the Groovebox over and over to try and minimize the amount of modules, and do things in the simplest possible way.

It's actually fine to use, you can't notice the latency, and I'm on 256 samples. I'm really hoping to get it down to 128 samples when I get a new iPad. However, I'm on the verge of audio crackles, and I still need to add quite a bit more to finish it. That's why I can't add the 10ms of latency, on it's own it's not too bad, but like you say, on top of all the other latency it's too much.

I've tried so many Grooveboxs/Instruments, they all have their own merits etc. I'm down to a Deluge and an Octatrack (plus synths etc) now, I'm keeping the Deluge but selling the Octatrack. Nothing compares to doing it in Drambo though, being able to have that many controls mapped is the best thing ever, especially with AU's, and all the great iOS apps.

I'll film a video showing it in action soon along with some more details if anyone's interested. I'll post all the necessary files and templates if anyone wants to try it out. It's mostly all colour-coded so it's easy to use. I test it out on my 2 kids (11 and 13) and they give feedback to improve it.

bangzero

@LeonS said:
Surely there must be some delay when sending stuff back the wrong way right to left? My understanding is limited admittedly.

the way feedback is used does not add latency to the on/off events. feedback limits how quickly the logic can respond to multiple events. 10ms feedback means events must be >10ms apart. but individual on/off events are not delayed by the feedback modules.

LeonS

@bangzero said:

@LeonS said:
Surely there must be some delay when sending stuff back the wrong way right to left? My understanding is limited admittedly.

the way feedback is used does not add latency to the on/off events. feedback limits how quickly the logic can respond to multiple events. 10ms feedback means events must be >10ms apart. but individual on/off events are not delayed by the feedback modules.

Bit confused by that... in truth there are a few Drambo modules I haven't dug into yet, and getting a taste of more complex workings is encouraging me to do so, so thank you.

On that one though, if you turn up the 10ms can you feel it taking even longer to respond? You can even turn it up really high, like to 1second and feel the latency get really bad.

Which would seem to suggest to me that it does add the 10ms? Or not? As it's the lowest that control goes?

At any rate, when I swap between the two projects you can really feel the difference. If you've got a controller which maps CC's, try the project I posted and see if you can notice it yourself.

Anyway, sorry for being picky. I appreciate you chiming in with your solution (which is incredibly clever - and I may try and use it for some of the switching in my Groovebox where the tiny bit of latency doesn't matter).

bangzero

@LeonS said:
On that one though, if you turn up the 10ms can you feel it taking even longer to respond? You can even turn it up really high, like to 1second and feel the latency get really bad.

with 1 second feedback on/off events must be >1s apart. you may be hearing the logic fail to catch on/off events faster than the feedback time. if events are slow enough there should be no additional latency.

LeonS

Yes, this makes sense, thanks for the additional info.

I did a simple test, drumming with two fingers on the Unmute pad, increase speed until you can hear its not catching the beat fast enough. Then tried it on @rs2000's earliest contribution, it's definitely noticeable.

It's an interesting conundrum, how to get the fastest chops, in the digital domain, which is obviously limited compared to the analogue domain.

LeonS

@rs2000 said:
@LeonS You'll have to map all 8 destinations. Don't forget the amps with 0-50 and 50-0 range.
Yes I've been using a MIDI keyboard because my Launchpad pad controllers can only send MIDI notes.

I didn't realize this, thanks for clarifying.

Now, the strange thing is, I feel less latency with this than I do with bangzero's project.

I'd like to understand better if possible. Why does your project use only 1 feedback module, whilst bangzero's uses 2?

It seems like with bangzero's project, if I turn the time up on the feedback modules, I can really feel the difference (on the Solo). On your's, it doesn't seem to make a difference (on the Solo) but maybe does on the Toggle?

I'm pretty confused. Can there be a way of doing it without a feedback module at all?

uncledave

Here is what I understand from your description. Note 1 toggles the output. Note 2 forces the output high, and clears it on release. Note 3 forces the output low, and sets it on release. Feedback is only used for Note 3, when output is initially low. It toggles the counter on press, based on the prior state of the counter, so it's not particularly dynamic. I changed some of the logic gate titles to clarify which button is input. I've included the project file as well, in case the diagram is not clear.

LeonS

@uncledave said:
Here is what I understand from your description. Note 1 toggles the output. Note 2 forces the output high, and clears it on release. Note 3 forces the output low, and sets it on release. Feedback is only used for Note 3, when output is initially low. It toggles the counter on press, based on the prior state of the counter, so it's not particularly dynamic. I changed some of the logic gate titles to clarify which button is input. I've included the project file as well, in case the diagram is not clear.

Thanks so much for this. I'm going to go through this methodically until I understand it. I think it will help in building in future.

so it's not particularly dynamic

I'm unsure what this means!

Feedback is only used for Note 3, when output is initially low.

Everytime Note 3 is sent? Or just at the start?

Note 3 (punch in) is the important one, I use it a lot more.

If the feedback delay always affects Note 3, is there any way to use Note 2 to punch in?

I've tried a few things to swap them (I'm using a switch N-1 to cut the audio), the closest I've got works, and has the least lag ever, with one problem: when I press play the toggle becomes reset in the wrong position.

I feel like it's so nearly there!

If the feedback only applies once, at the start after you press play, then no problem.

You know what, I'm testing it now on the Dnb flow 150Bpm loop included with Drambo and it feels fine in all honesty. I'm going to stick it onto the Master of my big project! So happy!

Thanks to everyone who contributed, I learned a lot. Amazing how Drambo offers multiple ways of doing the same thing. I feel like finding the most elegant solution is almost an artform in itself - I guess that's what software/hardware engineers do all day long.

rs2000

This turned into quite a fun puzzle game 😄
Great to see others come up with new ideas!

Here's another one.
The feedback question kept nagging my curiosity and being a totally un-logical human, the challenge to find a way without using feedback at all became even more tempting.

Enjoy!

Gravitas

@rs2000 said:
This turned into quite a fun puzzle game 😄
Great to see others come up with new ideas!

Here's another one.
The feedback question kept nagging my curiosity and being a totally un-logical human, the challenge to find a way without using feedback at all became even more tempting.

Enjoy!

I've been really enjoying this thread also.
It's so true, dRambo has so many ways of doing the same thing
and what's really cool is seeing the dRambonauts rise to the challenge. 😁🙏🏾

Gravitas

@rs2000 said:
This turned into quite a fun puzzle game 😄
Great to see others come up with new ideas!

Here's another one.
The feedback question kept nagging my curiosity and being a totally un-logical human, the challenge to find a way without using feedback at all became even more tempting.

Enjoy!

Brother, this is a thing of beauty.
🙏🏾

rs2000

@Gravitas said:

@rs2000 said:
This turned into quite a fun puzzle game 😄
Great to see others come up with new ideas!

Here's another one.
The feedback question kept nagging my curiosity and being a totally un-logical human, the challenge to find a way without using feedback at all became even more tempting.

Enjoy!

Brother, this is a thing of beauty.
🙏🏾

Thanks bro! 😃

uncledave

@LeonS said:

@uncledave said:
Here is what I understand from your description. Note 1 toggles the output. Note 2 forces the output high, and clears it on release. Note 3 forces the output low, and sets it on release. Feedback is only used for Note 3, when output is initially low. It toggles the counter on press, based on the prior state of the counter, so it's not particularly dynamic. I changed some of the logic gate titles to clarify which button is input. I've included the project file as well, in case the diagram is not clear.

Thanks so much for this. I'm going to go through this methodically until I understand it. I think it will help in building in future.

so it's not particularly dynamic

I'm unsure what this means!

Feedback is only used for Note 3, when output is initially low.

Everytime Note 3 is sent? Or just at the start?

Note 3 (punch in) is the important one, I use it a lot more.

If the feedback delay always affects Note 3, is there any way to use Note 2 to punch in?

I said, "Feedback is only used for Note 3, when output is initially low." This is the special case where the output is not muted and you want to punch in (momentarily unmute). So, nothing actually changes at this moment. But the start of Note 3 toggles the counter, so it will be set (muted) when Note 3 is released. This is not particularly dynamic, because it uses the "old" state of the counter to decide whether to toggle the counter. And it does not apply at all to "normal" punch in, when the state is initially muted. So I doubt you could detect it, even if the delay was relatively long. We need feedback because the counter provides a toggle input and a reset input, but no set input. So, in order to force the counter to 1, we have to toggle it only when it is initially zero.

bangzero

here's a simple-ish solution without feedback. differentiators generate on/off pulses from the buttons that feed a section which sets, clears or increments a 2 value gate counter. the counter is set by resetting then incrementing. the 2nd gate counter prevents the brief reset from affecting the output. enjoy!

ps- figured out that the transient detectors i use previously fail with fast (<0.1s) pulses. pretty sure this is why @LeonS was having problems. thanks @rs2000 for the differentiator trick.