App to find the flat version of a chord?

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@AlexY said:

@EdGG said:
Tonaly

Someone had mentioned to me somewhere that in A Dorian that III was already flatted, so maybe that's why asking about bIII doesn't make sense in that context?

Sometimes I feel like I'm back at trying to understand Calculus lol.

Yes, dorian mode has a flat 3rd.

espiegel123

@AlexY: a couple of things. In almost all cases talking about raised and flattened intervals, the reference point is the major scale. Before getting caught up in scales, learning those intervals is important. It is easiest to learn them by counting half-steps (semitones). The C major scale is an easy one to learn these from or use as a reference if you need to remind yourself

For example,
major 2nd is two half steps (C to D)
major 3rd (C to E) is four half steps
major 4th (C to F) is five half steps
major 5th (C to G) is 7 half steps
major 6th (C to A) is 9 half steps
major 7th (C to is 11 half steps

Notice that in the major scale all the intervals from the root are major. Raising for lowering (flatting) an interval is a matter of adding or subtracting a semitone. So, a flatted third (a minor third) is three half steps.

(Notice that when naming an interval we use the number of note names including the start and end point. C to F is a fourth (four note names C, D, E, F). They are 5 semitones apart.

You can tell which two notes are involved by counting note names. So, for instance, to find the major 3 for A. You count three names: A, B, C. But to find which C (Cb, C-natural or C#), you count the semitones. You find that the C four half-steps above A is C#. To find the flatted third, you find the C that is 3 half steps away.

USUALLY when people use this terminology they are using the major scale intervals as the reference point -- but there will be occasions where it gets confusing and someone will mean raising or lowering the degree of the chord or scale mode you are using -- but that doesn't happen often.

C-FLAT
You asked about flatting C-major. Even though, the question resulted from a misunderstanding, I'll explain how you could find C-flat major (flatting C: gives you C-flat). C-flat is the same note as B-natural. Flat just means (go one half step lower than the natural). If for some reason you needed to build a C-flat major chord, it would have the same pitches as a B-major scale but you would name them differently. For your purposes, you could ignore the chord 'spelling' and just thing of C-flat major as being B major (B, D#, F#). The technically correct spelling about be Cb,Eb, Gb.

michael_m

@AlexY said:
My original question/concern, given that misunderstanding, was that I don't really know what rule they used to "flatten a degree". Going back to their example of the A major scale, where the iii (C#min) is "flatted" into bIII (Cmaj), I wanted to infer some sort of formula for doing that. In that case, from what I can tell, the first and third notes of the C#min triad are flattened and you get Cmaj, but I couldn't really tell if this was a rule you could apply across the board to "flatten a degree".

The problem with this is that there isn’t really a ‘rule’ by which this decision is made. Sometimes chord progressions come from finding something that sounds good while just sitting at the piano and experimenting, and the chords don’t necessarily conform to expected diatonic chords for a particular scale/mode.

There is a formula of sorts for going in both directions for this, and it becomes easier if you learn how each mode is formed (a common way is to learn how each one varies from the major scale as a start point). You could pick a mode and alter each major scale diatonic chord to give you the chords you want, or you could analyze your chords and determine what you have based on how they vary from the major scale. Of course, if you learn the modes very well, it’s easier to do it without reference to the major scale.

michael_m

@AlexY said:

@EdGG said:
Tonaly

Someone had mentioned to me somewhere that in A Dorian that III was already flatted, so maybe that's why asking about bIII doesn't make sense in that context?

Sometimes I feel like I'm back at trying to understand Calculus lol.

bIII is a a triad with its root note set to the 3rd note of the scale, with a major 3rd and a 5th stacked on top then all 3 notes flattened by a half step. If you are using the Dorian mode and trying to figure out the III chord, you would only flatten the root note and the 5th interval from that (as they are the 3rd and 7th notes from the major scale).

For example, in C major (although typically you would use the iii chord, not the III chord with a major scale), the III chord would consist of E-Ab-D, and the bIII would consist of Eb-G-Db. The Dorian mode would cause the III chord to consist of Eb-Ab-Db.

EdGG

@AlexY said:
Hi all!

Thank you so much for trying to help me out and being patient.

I think that I'm in the situation where I just "know" enough theory to confuse myself into knots. My whole question started from an app I have called Prog Machine. It just lists out some common progressions and their actual chords. You can switch between major scales (C through to have the chords spelled out for you.

One of the progressions tabs is called a "flat degree" and lists out some of them:

Here is the short explanation the dev gives for this:

Using the I-bIII-IV example for A major, it seems like if you start with I-iii-IV of that scale (Amaj-C#min-Dmaj), and turn that iii into a flat degree (bIII), you somehow end up with Amaj-Cmaj-Dmaj.

I thought that you could apply these progressions to every mode. For example, taking I-bIII-IV and trying it out in other keys and modes like A dorian. So the idea was like, take A Dorian i-III-IV = Amin-Cmaj-Dmaj, and figure out what i-bIII-IV would be (Amin-???-Dmaj). It sounds from the answers I've gotten that this is a misconception on my part.

My original question/concern, given that misunderstanding, was that I don't really know what rule they used to "flatten a degree". Going back to their example of the A major scale, where the iii (C#min) is "flatted" into bIII (Cmaj), I wanted to infer some sort of formula for doing that. In that case, from what I can tell, the first and third notes of the C#min triad are flattened and you get Cmaj, but I couldn't really tell if this was a rule you could apply across the board to "flatten a degree".

Like, I thought that in A Dorian, maybe I could take that III (Cmaj) and flatten the first and fifth notes to get Bsus4 and that would be bIII, but I have no idea if any of that is correct. Hence the question about there being an app to just figure it out for me in as many modes as possible.

The dev got something wrong but I think I know what you are looking for if that “sound of rock” is what you are after. The bIII is basically a chord that is a tone and a half away from your key. So if you are in C, you would go to Eb. Count the keys if you use a piano, and it will be 3 keys away. Then play the major chord, adding a major third (2 tones, 4 semitones or keys, or frets), and a fifth (3 semitones from the 3rd, or 7 from the main chord), and you are good to go.

EdGG

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@AlexY said:

@EdGG said:
Tonaly

Someone had mentioned to me somewhere that in A Dorian that III was already flatted, so maybe that's why asking about bIII doesn't make sense in that context?

Sometimes I feel like I'm back at trying to understand Calculus lol.

Yes, dorian mode has a flat 3rd.

As do every minor key, to be fair.

McD

“In the key of C the bIII is”… Em and not Dm. Skip a litter to get to the third: C D E.

The rest of the information is very useful to make blues progressions. The chord roots
Match the C Minor Pentatonic:

C Eb F G Bb C

Beginning blues guitar players drill the pentatonic shape and are making up solos in days.
As a novice piano player a friend of my dad taught me the C Blues scale and I was off on the adventure
Towards being a rock/blues/jazz soloist. It took me time but I got pretty good in C and when I played with a band I started drilling the other keys guitar players like: E A D G.

When I wanted to play in the keys jazz players insist on using for standards I started finishing the job with those blues scales because I prefer blues licks on my embellishments just like any R&B singer.

michael_m

@McD said:
As a novice piano player a friend of my dad taught me the C Blues scale and I was off on the adventure
Towards being a rock/blues/jazz soloist. It took me time but I got pretty good in C and when I played with a band I started drilling the other keys guitar players like: E A D G.

When I wanted to play in the keys jazz players insist on using for standards I started finishing the job with those blues scales because I prefer blues licks on my embellishments just like any R&B singer.

Very true - blues and rock solo improvisation is quick to get started on if you learn the major and minor blues scales (or indeed just the pentatonic).

When I got started on jazz improvisation I would use them too (plus throwing in other notes here and there) and practice by playing common chord progressions over and over to improve my hand independence.

Ditto on the guitar and sax, but pretty much just the minor pentatonic on guitar.

maxwellhouser

@AlexY this thread made me think of this guy. His videos are pretty good, here are his playlists on making music with modes/ modal tonality. Worth checking out imo…