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Comments
If you can substantiate it , do. Otherwise, you should retract the accusation and move on. Throwing shade at respected developers (or anyone for that matter) without backing it up is unfair. "Do your own research" is a pretty weak defense. Throwing around accusations like that is out-of-line in my opinion.
A link doesn't quite cover a lifetime of experience and literary research. Sure, I studied the natural world when I was at university, but there were many things I took the opportunity to learn more about.
If you can't back it up with anything but vague insinuations, you have no place making the accusation.
Fair enough. I can handle that as a point of view. I disagree though. I could just as easily say not being willing to do your own research is a pretty strong indication of how important the issue is to you. It's not like the real world has trained you to expect a detailed explanation of every opinion you find less than pleasing.
I haven't backed it up at all. Not even vaguely. Again, the above statement is just your opinion based on your life experience I assume. Same as mine.
Sending people down a rabbit hole by saying "do your research" is weak. I've not seen or found a post on this forum from them that seems extremist. Where should we do said research?
It seems to me unethical to toss around insinuations about people's character especially with nothing backing it up.
I don't know you from Adam and have no reason to give credence to insinuations from a random person (you) whose defense of their statements is so sketchy.
Sounds fair. Again, its your opinion and you have a right to it. Based on what you are saying I'd say our interaction has reached an impasse. I do not have any expectation that you would just accept what I have said, especially without me going to great depths to rehash the information that has formed my opinion over several decades. I have nothing more to say and won't be retracting anything.
Also, I'm not sending anyone down a rabbit hole. I am merely saying that if you wish to learn, you should research your chosen topic, not listen to some random on the internet.
WTF?!? "do not have any expectation that you would just accept what I have said, especially without me going to great depths to rehash the information that has formed my opinion over several decades".
You haven't gone into ANY depths.
You are insinuating things with NO substantiation at all. My research turns up nothing shady.
You have no place making accusations. That's just low.
That was a misunderstanding. What I meant (and thought I said) was I would have to go to "great depths to rehash the information that has formed my opinion over several decades", which I am not going to do. It would take longer to track down 40 years worth of experience and data than it would for an individual to attempt to form their own opinion.
If you aren’t willing to explain yourself, you shouldn’t be publicly slandering people. That’s bad manners and unethical.
Agreed
I am thinking what they are insinuating is the connection with the baptist church is what makes them “extremists.”
Weird…
OK well if this is what it is, then I probably agree. I'm British, so I have a pretty low tolerance for in-your-face preaching and a "fire and brimstone" approach to religion.
I lived with a Baptist at university - he was a lovely chap and was a very gifted drummer. But he made it absolutely clear that from his perspective we (his student flatmates) were all going to hell for eternity because we didn't follow his singular vision of Christianity. Anyone who was gay was also damned, as was anyone who had an abortion. Oh and so were all Catholics. I can't remember what other sins would send you to hellfire (beyond the obvious, such as following other faiths).
From my perspective I would agree that these are "extremist" views. Now I would accept that some Baptist churches may be more forgiving (or "Christian!") in their approach, but it's a flavour of Christianity which I think tends to be extremely unforgiving.
The Gospel Musicians company have certainly shared directly religious content via their channels:
Unless they have specifically made homophobic and/or otherwise bigoted comments I don't think it's appropriate to condemn someone based on their religion.
I have Baptist friends and they are not bigots. Just like I have Muslim friends and they are not terrorists (or bigots).
Pre-judging people based on their identity is the very definition of bigotry and intolerance.
So….. anybody liking these drums any?
Thankfully we have our right to choose, If we don't like it we simply don't buy it...
Exactly. Calling any person who holds a religious view an “extremist” is not going to win arguments here. Most people on the planet have faith in a philosophy or religion which would be considered “extreme” for no reason otherwise. Live and let live.
I'm a pretty hardcore atheist. But I have no problem with this guy speaking about his experience, albeit I don't agree with his personal interpretation of his experience. I lived in Brazil for a while and witnessed a candomble ceremony. It took about 3 or 4 hours but was in no way boring or pedestrian. It starts off with people beating drums and playing various Brazilian instruments. Initially there are a few people dancing. Then at certain points, some members of the audience take part. At one point a girl sitting right in front of me got up and started dancing. Immediately it seemed she was possessed by what some might call the Holy Ghost and others might call the Devil. Once these people hit the floor, they are in the flow, no doubt about it. If you haven't seen it, you won't know what I'm talking about. They move in a way that is truly otherworldly. For me it's just a mix of belief and a trance-like state. But it's a beautiful thing to behold.
At a certain point they are taken into a back room and dressed in costume according to the way they dance. The belief is that every person has been in some way possessed by a saint / spirit (Candomble is a weird fusion of African deities and Christian saints) and can be identified as which one by their dancing style. They then come back out, dressed as the deity they represent, and continue the same trance-like dancing until eventually, after a very long time, things start to chill.
Do I believe that any of these people are possessed by any kind of spirit or saint? No
Are they having a deep and 'otherworldly' experience? Most definitely yes
Does this tell us anything about whether there is a god or gods? No. It's a mix of trance and belief
Do I envy these people? In some ways yes, it's nice to find meaning in life. But in other ways no. Because there are so many conflicting religious views across the globe that would a) have similar experiences b) dismiss the experiences of people from another camp. Hindus traditionally have been quite inclusive but definitely not under the current government. Sufis have their own trance-like experiences but even they are often rejected by Islamic governments.
My personal view:.
There is no god or gods
Let's move on from religion
Religion has good aspects that can be replaced by secular ones.
Let's find other ways to have these deep experiences that give life meaning
Morality is a human invention, but is needed - we need rules about how to get along well, no one can function well in a society where they have to think about every decision in advance - but we still need to discuss and debate what these are and different people and societies will have their own views.
Of course it's a lot more complex than these few lines can summarise. I personally would ban all religion-based schools. Religion should not be indoctrination but something people embrace for themselves. Of course that's unrealistic since family background will play a huge part. Etc etc
If I pissed anybody off by posting this - great.
I watched that video, and it was totally charming. It's a man who sincerely believes in his faith and is eager to share it with others. (It is also quite possibly the most American video I have seen in ages: Only in exurban Atlanta can you drive for 17 minutes through a featureless landscape that feels computer-generated — how many times was that white semi going to pass him!? stressing me out! — and not get where you're going while you calmly talk about the time the Holy Spirit visited you in puberty.) I wasn't a huge Gospel Musicians fan for two reasons: Their apps seem hugely bloated, and I also find the trappings of church music corny as hell. Well, I'm now a fan of the aesthetic. A convert! (We'll see about the gigantic DL size going forward.)
Forgive me, @benlefoe, but "I knew a Baptist" is comically close to "I had a Black friend growing up..." There are all kinds of Baptists, unfortunately tarred by the hateful bigots at Westboro. I see absolutely nothing in this Gospel Musicians video that suggests "extremism" — unless you yourself hate all expressions of faith. Which is a rather extreme position. I personally no longer attend church, but I'm just as skeptical of those who are absolutely certain there is no god as those who believe their denomination is the chosen sect.
I think @Ailerom you ought to retract your statement or not be so coy about your accusations.
Well said, ExAsperis99. People hold a wide variety of beliefs in this world and that's OK. Live and let live.
Worth pointing out that the Westboro “church” isn’t a baptist church but a money-making racket founded and staffed by Fred Phelps and his family. They heckle an event, post extremely incendiary signs and wait to get roughed up / arrested. Then they’d sue for civil rights violations and settle for boku money. Absolutely nothing religious about that outfit and they’ve been pretty quiet since Phelps died.
Fair enough, but I lived with the man for a year and saw him again after that, so I had a chance to often talk faith with him and to see him on the streets of Bristol trying to convert people to save them from Hellfire. My experience of him and his friends (who used to come over after some afternoon street preaching) was that they practiced a very narrow and rigid form of faith which was extremely intolerant. Think of someone who would take a Chick tract at face value.
I never said that he specifically was a biggot. But from his perspective we were all going to hell unless we were following his faith exactly the same way that he did. Since the Baptist movement in the US was also behind such madness as purity pledges I do definitely think (as I said) that it's an unforgiving faith.
Incidentally he had nothing to do with Westboro... I'm not sure why that was relevant to mention, as I view that as more of a minority cult.
And I bet he was a lovely person one-on-one. American religion is weird. What you describe sounds more to me like someone who was raised evangelical than a Baptist, but what do I know? Jack Chick, wow. Good call.
It reminds me of this excellent Emo Phillips joke.
Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.
I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
Don’t judge someone just because they are religious. Many devout people are wonderful people — while some are intolerant, many are not — and plenty of atheists are intolerant and not so wonderful.
If you knew a Baptist that was a jerk, or even many, don’t judge all.
Being devout does not make someone an extremist. I know some very devout people (including clergy) that are open and respectful (not just tolerant) of faiths not their own.
You know you are on the wrong side of an argument when you bring NeuM and Exasperis together in agreement.
p.s. Martin Luther King Jr. was Baptist
Also don’t make blanket generalizations about people who share the same religion based on the behavior of a few. That’s just out and out prejudice.
Amusing joke with some truth in it.
Thankfully you'd NEVER find anything like that in some society that banned religion...
I used to be very 'religious', now I've come to believe evolution 'designed' us to be religious. Religions are extremely costly, yet they exist in every culture. If they weren't adaptive in some way they'd never have lasted. They tend to make you behave in ways that promote the survival of your tribe/lineage/culture, putting off short term gains for longer term ones. If you are a devotee of Dawkins you won't accept this, but there are other evolutionary biologists who think this way. So while I understand railing against religion, especially if you've had very negative experiences, I find it pointless to be hostile. In a way I would see you as continuing a kind of religious objection in your vehemence, as you have a belief that is counter to the reality of what humans are. IMHO. And to top it off, 'wokeness' is a great example of a new religion, with doctrines that must not be questioned, its own versions of original sin, classes of holy people and sinners etc that provides a belief structure to give meaning to many. For better or worse.
I've said this more clumsily than I'd like.
Wow this thread is certainly….something 😬
Definitely agree with the consensus. Not cool to go throwing around accusations with no intention to back it up.
Ah yeah, I don’t think this is the app for me lol thanks for answering though!
Love it 😊