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Comments
Given what he wrote, the important part for him is that people agree on a certain standard reference pitch in order to make playing music together easy. > @espiegel123 said:
Start here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwave_entrainment
As far as I know none of the audio-based neural entrainment claims (which have been around for decades) has held up to rigorous scrutiny with respect to large-scale effects.
This may be true Ed, I can definitely attest - as a complete atheist - that things like chanting have a very powerful effect on my body/mind but I also wouldn't want to extrapolate too much from that on what the exact mechanisms are, the role of placebo etc. But I think we all know first hand the psycho-physiological effects of rhythm and melody.
Who cares about frequencies...the beat is all that matters
Gimme Punk, Ambient, IDM, Jazz, Trance and all of the modes of music which teleport my mind and body to new unexplored places
Great vid. Yep to me there is no need for scientific evidence for the ability of music / rhythm to help people to reach states of trance / euphoria etc. To anyone who plays and listens to the appropriate music this is evident. You just need to go to a house or techno club, or go to a candomble ritual or a gospel church. If you don't feel this, you're simply missing something that most people have in their bones.
A Feeling of Frisson
Actually, it even has a name. The phenomenon of chills or goosebumps that come from a piece of music (or from any other aesthetic experience) is called frisson, and it's been one of the big mysteries of human nature since it was first described.
https://www.discovery.com/science/Getting-Chills-from-Music
I'm chasing that feeling when I create my music...it's so hard to hit though
but worth the effort every time....
That was also quite often the case in Western music prior to the 20th century. There are many older instruments in existence that are tuned quite differently from A440, usually quite a few cycles flatter than that.
Me too. The entire reason I play is to get that feeling.
Ted Gioia's latest book, which he's publishing in installments on Substack, deals quite a lot with these aspects of music. I sometimes feel like he's strayed too far into the mystical, but I find it interesting nonetheless: https://tedgioia.substack.com/p/music-to-raise-the-dead-the-secret
It is a huge leap from chanting or dancing + chanting or ecstatic ritual have a profound impact to brain entrainment via passive listening to binaural beats has a profound impact.
Here ya go.
Pot stirred.
😁
When did I say anything about binaural beats?
From the first page of the article:
Brainwave entrainment, also referred to as brainwave synchronization or neural entrainment, refers to the observation that brainwaves (large-scale electrical oscillations in the brain) will naturally synchronize to the rhythm of periodic external stimuli, such as flickering lights,[1] speech,[2] music,[3] or tactile stimuli.
The video talked about using flickering lights to get into trance. My comment was about the power of music to induce trance, nothing about binaural beats
It gets confused a lot, since binaural beats deal with brain entrainment in general.
Yes, but Ed clearly jumped to some false conclusions there so I'm putting him right
….
(accidentally hit post button before the post was done…and realized that I don’t have an interest in completing it)
Like straying too far into the mystical is a bad thing? We should never take our existence in this vast and seemingly infinite universe for granted 😉
Readings on String Theory and quantum physics seem pretty mystical to me 👊🏼™️
“Spooky Action at a distance” reading about it blows my mind every time.
Quantum physics and cosmology is basically religion for people who can do math.
What will the atheists do when the scientists discover god?
In what way? Religious systems are as hoc and generally don’t change their tenets based on evidence. When science leads to contradictions, good scientists say “we’ve got something wrong, I wonder what..and seek to resolve the dissonance.
Except when it comes to climate change.
In principle. Polanyi and Kuhn suggested that things work otherwise in practice. On the other hand, Buddha supposedly had the epistemological humility you describe.
Or tobacco
Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, I'm just wary about it when supposedly enlightened ones attempt to use mysticism as a way to control and abuse others, or more generally when it prioritizes satisfying higher powers before the needs of fellow human beings.
Yeah...I totally agree...there is no system or hierarchy when it comes to transcendence...just the joy of passing along the knowledge in the form of Art and Discussions for others to experience themselves thru their own neurological frameworks.
What a strange thought.. god discovered in a lab(?)
Atheist are rational so it's very simple: accept and move on. 😎
The problem would be a lot bigger for the religious when the newly "discovered" god will declare what religion, of all the divisions, is the correct one.😇 😂
I don't believe that what I have said is at odds with Kuhn or Feyerabend or Lakatos or other critics of the early 20th century view about what the scientific method eas. I don't know Polanyi..so can't comment there.
What Kuhn et al argue (and I agree with them) is that the advancement of science sometimes requires divergence from the formulation of the scientific method as outlined by Karl Popper and the like .... Fundamental paradigm shifts, they argue, can only be the result of a different process that in the short-term violates some of the tenets of scientific thinking BUT those new paradigms once formulated are subject to rigorous scrutiny and consistency.
If a new model does not enable new (accurate) predictions and explain phenomena not explained by the previous paradigm it won't be an acceptable/successful model.
The divergence from the normal "requirements" or on a short time-scale to arrive at a model that is superior to the earlier model..where superior is determined by accuracy and conformance to experience. This is fundamentally different from (most) religion.
When we talk about the Buddha, there are a lot of 'supposedlies' - we have this image of him as a prince when there is a lot more evidence that he was basically the equivalent of the son of a village chief. Princes were not in short supply in India (present day Nepal) at that time. Throw a stone far enough, you could probably hit a prince 😂.
At least with the Bible, things were written down by people who (supposedly) actually hung around with Jesus. This is not a preference for Christianity from my side, I personally find Buddhism, or at least some aspects of it - there are of course a lot of different interpretations of Buddhism - more appealing. In the case of Buddhism, however, nothing was written down until hundreds of years after the Buddha's death, at least 500. And these first writings represented the views of a certain school of Buddhism only, the Theravada, despite the fact that there were many many schools of Buddhism with widely divergent views both while the historical Buddha lived and in those hundreds of years after his death.
I also personally very much doubt the veracity of the description of the Buddha's enlightenment and think that he was intellectually dishonest in not just coming out and saying that many tenets of Buddhist philosophy are intellectually incompatible with any kind of meaningful belief in rebirth. Either that or he had too much belief in rebirth to see the intellectual compatibility between his claim that there was no self and the idea that people should avoid rebirth and strive for enlightnment. Scholars and believers have put themselves through a lot of mental gymnastics over the years dealing with these questions, I have yet to see any I find convincing. Personally, I now prefer to spend my time on music than on reading or debating on the topic of religion, although I did read a lot on this some years ago and was fascinated by it.
Despite being atheist or at least strongly agnostic myself I am far from convinced that atheists are always rational lol. But +100 for that last line 😁
Anyone interested in these topics will probably enjoy the Alan de Botton book, Religion for Atheists. Despite the huge harm religion has caused historically, the amount of war, delusion and corruption it has led to, there are many good aspects of religious practice which secular societies would do well to embrace, even though the forms of these rituals and the beliefs in the mechanisms by which they work would be radically different.
Not for the most part though, surely? The gospels were written by authors who didn’t even live in the same country. There’s quite a high likelihood that the authors were actually born after the estimated death of Jesus.
Even the letters from ‘Paul’ don’t have any evidence that they were written by an apostle. My understanding is that even the earliest ones were written at a time that would make the author extremely old if he were a contemporary of Jesus.
For the most part, yes, definitely not, true. As mentioned though, with the earliest extant Buddhist texts we’re talking a gap of roughly 600 years - ie a good ten lifetimes’ difference.
Same with many religions really, and there’s often either documented or implied editing of the source materials over time. Not sure that with any religion it’s possible to find writings that 100% convey the thoughts of its prophet(s).