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Sadhguru/ being alone
This says it. Well, it says something,anyway.
Comments
"Highly intellignet" - 10/10 perfection
Sadhguru to me is one of the biggest phonies out there 😂... The size of that guy's ego is only matched by his ridiculously pretentious beard. Not a fan, not a fan at all
Haha @Gavinski, i’m sure you’re right. Still, what he says makes sense and he presents it in an amusing way. I think zen masters have a tradition of phoniness, too. If it gets you to a new place does the messenger matter? Not talking politics, of course.
Lol 😂. I’m the complete opposite. I think he’s the real deal.
I'm also not a fan, though there are many who resonate with him and will therefore no doubt find some help in his words...and that's a good thing.
I'm more of a Tara Brach guy, myself. Perhaps you might find her more relatable:
I know Tara Brach, sure, and used to listen to her quite a lot. Frankly, I’m kind of done with those kind of Buddhist teachers too. People like Glenn Wallis are more my cup of tea, by a long shot! Even Thomason’s ideas resonate strongly for me, when it comes to Buddhism:
Actually, it was being pressured to get deeper into Buddhism that made me leave behind quite a solid period of Vipassana exploration. I found the practice to be extremely beneficial, despite my atheistic, and (somewhat) nihilistic proclivities. As soon as I was told that I should be getting more deeply into the 'narrative', i was outta there.
Tara is a bridge to that world, for me. She manages to distil the ideas and practice in a way that doesn't alert that negative spidey-sense. I always get the sense from her that she's right there in the struggle, with the rest of us. Feels very much anti-guru.
But will definitely check out Glenn Wallis. Cheers for the recommendation
This has turned into a good discussion. Thanks, guys.
Yes - I was a big fan of Goenka style Vipassana. I then later did a 2-month Mahasi style retreat which, while leading me to some extremely interesting experiences, was the final nail in the coffin for my faith in these modern Burmese takes on the meditative tradition. All good grist for the mill, but I am glad I never fell fully down the Buddhist rabbit hole, like one of my friends has. The book Buddhist Modernism by David McMahan, especially the first few chapters, is super interesting to get some context on some of the problematic ideas of modern (and historical) Buddhism.
I also love Alan de Botton’s book Religion for Athiests. I am very much in the atheist camp, but see a lot of good in various aspects of religious and spiritual traditions. There’s a lot that’s not good in those traditions too though!
@Gavinski, I’ve come to rely on a non existent god who never lets me down. I mean, if there were a god wouldn’t it be outside of existence as that’s the place created for the universe and all us critters by god?. Shall I start a lecture series like Sadhguru?
Please do haha. Don’t forget to wear some swanky robes, or your credibility will be zilch though lol
I had never heard of Mahasi. From a cursory glance they seem very similar albeit Mahasi having more to pin one's attention to. But if the rhetoric is similar, it's unsurprising that you might've needed to leave it behind. I only managed to get into it to the extent that I did, because i took Goenka at his word that I needn't accept any of the theory...I just needed to practice. As soon as I felt pressure for that to change, I was gone.
Hadn't heard of 'Religion For Atheists', but I did just watch the Ted Talk (Yeah, sorry...Lame, I know).
Having been (loosely) raised in the Jewish faith, while also attending a very multi-cultural school in the 70's/80's, I absolutely agree that religion (Any/All of them) have a lot to offer secular society. However, these ideas seem so ingrained in general culture that at this point I don't see the need to reference religion at all. The basic concepts/notions of right/wrong, the importance of community and of ritual etc. are still apparent within society.
Definitely interested to check out McMahan's book, though. Will have to compare it to my own notes
Do you still maintain a practice?
Sporadically yes. I should do more - regular meditation, an hour or two a day minimum, is REALLY good for me. I don’t stick to any one style though when I do practise. I do what I feel I need at the time. This approach by the way, is massively more in line with the purported teachings of the Buddha than the one-size fits all Goenka / Mahasi approaches. Goenka, in particular, seems extremely ill-informed on Buddhism and a lot of his teachings are just plain wrong.
Oh, another great book for anyone in recovery from these terrible modern Burmese traditions - The Birth of Insight by Erik Braun. Gives the historical context on these Burmese schools that the teachers of those traditions gloss over in their fallacious teachings that they are practising some kind of true original Meditarion technique taught by the Buddha. Such a load of nonsense when you actually start researching the history.
Many years ago, I used to really like reading Alan Watts. That intense interest passed for various reasons. It was also pre-web and pre-youtube. He seems even more profound rediscovering him on youtube, and makes me realize how much a great voice adds to the perceived importance of someone's words, and how much the microphone loved Watt's vox chops
I’m curious Gavinski. I’ve been listening/watching Sadhguru for years. I’ve never heard him say anything egotistical and his words are profound. In my opinion an actual spiritual master alive on this earth.
What was it that formed your opinion of him? I’m not here to change your mind.
Yeah...2 hours was always good for me, also. But I could never get it to stick. Really want to get back to it, but it'll be a very slow start.
I've made my peace with it all, really. Not that I ever really harboured any ill-will, but after leaving I did spend time digging into forums where people would share their negative experiences. Not sure why. I needed no vindication.
I think that because I had already ditched religion decades beforehand, and was not searching for anything other than an opportunity to cultivate a steady meditation practice, I took most of what Goenka said with a pinch-of-salt. But even though he was just a messenger, his delivery was a huge part of the whole thing, for me. I believe Vipassana saved my life, and I can't (nor do I need to) separate his contribution to that, from the rest of the whole.
So I'm in no doubt that most if not all the 'spiel' is not as it's portrayed. it's really an unnecessary deceit, though. Goenka says it himself - Forget the narrative, if it's not acceptable...and just practice.
Hey! I couldn’t remember specifically now, but particularly some of the debate videos I saw where he behaved very arrogantly. I genuinely can’t stand the guy, lol - each to their own, though!
Alan Watts - really interesting character, though definitely human, all too human. Caused quite a lot of pain to his wife and family. This biography is really worth a read. https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Fake-Biography-Alan-Watts/dp/0044400497
Sorry to be the one trying to burst everyone’s bubbles about their favourite spiritual teachers haha - just that I have spent a lot of time over the years delving into these matters and am pretty well informed from historical and academic studies on these traditions and teachers.
Yeah - my first Goenka retreat was absolutely magical. I came out certain that my life would be profoundly transformed and all my problems solved. Didn’t quite turn out that way haha. I think that a lot of people do get benefits from Goenka style Vipassana, but I also think that a lot of our generation, some years from now, will be viewed as as naieve in their attitude to Buddhism as most of us would view the people who followed Madam Blavatsky etc in the 1800s.
Indeed. And thanks for letting me know.
As far as the spiritual aspects go. My current theory is that we are all an aspect of the source that have agreed to have our memories wiped so we can experience what it’s like to have a human existence.
I also believe we all co-create this existence moment to moment to satisfy the requirements of why we are here.
Yeah, these are the kind of spiritual ideas that I personally can’t jibe with. I am genuinely a total atheist even though I have an interest in spiritual practices. I have zero belief in any kind of god, afterlife or absolute ground of meaning. Of course, everyone’s life experience conditions what they find feasible in terms of ideas about life, god, meaning, etc, so I’m not trying to criticize your beliefs, just being very frank about my own 🙏
Which is one of the reasons I love this forum. People can have polar opposite beliefs and still have a constructive discussion about it.
So what do you think happens to you when you die?
I just think I will no longer exist. And in fact, I don't think I have ever really existed in the sense that we generally conceive of it. In this sense I think there is a lot more truth in the Eastern traditions' ideas of self as an illusion than in some kind of Christian idea of a soul floating in a body. There's an increasing amount of scientific evidence that each person is more like a community of parts that are more or less integrated and where various parts come to the forefront at different times. The kids animated movie Inside Out is an easy way of grasping this, and the psychology movement known as Internal Families Systems seems to me to have a lot of truth to it. My problem with the Eastern traditions is that they in my view correctly identify the self as an illusion, but because this is so hard to accept, often end up needing to create a concept of some higher, true self that exists beyond time etc etc. This is where they start to lose their way, I think. Even Buddhism, which supposedly believes in no self, as opposed to Hinduism, which has an explicit idea of a higher self, seems to sneak the idea of a self back in. If there is no self, why would it matter whether you were reborn or not, enlightened or not? Buddhist philosophers have been jumping through hoops to try to solve these problems for millenia. > @cyberheater said:
Hopefully, those who have had negative experiences at retreats or with Buddhism itself can separate that from the practice. It might just be one song in one's repertoire, but it's a great song
Rejoin the river of chi @cyberheater. Nothing to be concerned about. The water’s fine.
This guy speculates that the supernatural powers that Buddhism promises is really only a description of lucid dreaming:
https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/jhanas-lucid-dreaming-and-letting-there-be-just-seeing-in-the-seeing/
He seems to be trying to find value in Buddhism beyond the supernatural stuff. I learned about the jhanas by reading a different one of his articles. I spend about two hours every day in the jhanas. One hour while waking up, before I get out of bed, and another hour while falling asleep at night.
Yeah... I mean, if you read early Buddhist texts there are tons of things there, including the description of the Buddha's enlightenment as well as various cosmological things, that are as incompatible with modern science and the average educated westerner's view of the world as the biblical creation story and the biblical view of how old the world is etc. These things get ignored by many modern teachers but they certainly seem to have been meant very literally. Again, other modern teachers try to find a million different workarounds to explain these in a way that still manages to find space for the view that the Buddhist idea of enlightenment is somehow less of a fiction than the Christian heaven. This despite the huge number of sex scandals etc involving supposedly enlightened Buddhist masters in recent years and presumably historically as well.
I kind of expect all systems of knowledge to contain a whole lot of bullshit. I don’t see how it could be otherwise given the human condition. Scrolling through texts trying to find the good bits that work and make sense seems normal to me. Is there any alternative?
Advaita Vedanta? This seems the most fundamental way of looking at our condition. Ramana Maharshi, guys like that.
I guess the traditional idea is that you need a teacher and you need faith, because your own views are limited, biased etc. But I agree with you, I can’t really see another way. I’m not built for blind faith, and I think the above mention of all the sex scandals etc involving ‘enlightened’ masters justifies my predisposition towards that, so I’m with you there. We always need to give things a fair try, but need to strike a delicate balance between being open and being gullible / naive. I think I gave Buddhism a fairly good go, in terms of being open to it, but once I started digging deeper, I found a lot of problems in the philosophy, the practice, the teachers etc