Help! How would you begin to orchestrate / add strings to this Piano track? - (Genuine question)

SpookyZoo

Hi guys, I'm a bit stuck here and would genuinely like some advice on adding some string instruments to this piano track.

I'm asking more about the timeline of the track and the style of orchestration you would suggest.

I have access to a couple of Spitfire string libraries (Albion Tundra etc) but it's just not my forte and I don't really have a clue where to start.

I'd say that the track is probably in Ab minor.

It's just a rough take of the song. (bit messy in the middle)

Thanks in advance for any advice

JanKun

Beautiful piece ! If you send me the file, I could try something on it. But if you want to do it on your own and need guidance I am probably the wrong guy as I never really know where I am heading until I open Staffpad and start working on a score.

klownshed

SpookyZoo

Hey @JanKun That's a really generous offer, that would be awesome thank you! Would love to hear what you come up with.

(It's just a rough version so please don't spend too much time on it.)

Is there a good way to share the file via AB forum? It's probably a reasonably large file.

telecharge

A couple of ideas...

Run the piano MIDI through some string instrument patches, layer it with your piano performance, and adjust to taste - remove notes/sections, sustain/extend notes. etc. If you don't have the piano MIDI, I can convert it for you.

Try different sequences from your Spitfire libraries. Set a sequence to loop and listen for parts that complement your performance.

@SpookyZoo said:
Is there a good way to share the file via AB forum? It's probably a reasonably large file.

Just upload it to to iCloud, Dropbox, Google Drive, etc., make sure it is appropriately set to be shared, and provide a link.

JanKun

@SpookyZoo said:
Hey @JanKun That's a really generous offer, that would be awesome thank you! Would love to hear what you come up with.

(It's just a rough version so please don't spend too much time on it.)

Is there a good way to share the file via AB forum? It's probably a reasonably large file.

PM is probably best. As mentioned above a dropbox, Google drive, box, or whatever link is fine. I personally don't necessarily need wav file, it can be compressed. Another thing, if it is played with a click (hope so) providing the tempo would be much appreciated !

SpookyZoo

@JanKun said:

@SpookyZoo said:
Hey @JanKun That's a really generous offer, that would be awesome thank you! Would love to hear what you come up with.

(It's just a rough version so please don't spend too much time on it.)

Is there a good way to share the file via AB forum? It's probably a reasonably large file.

PM is probably best. As mentioned above a dropbox, Google drive, box, or whatever link is fine. I personally don't necessarily need wav file, it can be compressed. Another thing, if it is played with a click (hope so) providing the tempo would be much appreciated !

I didn't record this to a click so maybe I'd be better off re-recording, making sure that this time I record the midi and to tempo. Cheers!

@telecharge said:
A couple of ideas...

Run the piano MIDI through some string instrument patches, layer it with your piano performance, and adjust to taste - remove notes/sections, sustain/extend notes. etc. If you don't have the piano MIDI, I can convert it for you.

Try different sequences from your Spitfire libraries. Set a sequence to loop and listen for parts that complement your performance.

@SpookyZoo said:
Is there a good way to share the file via AB forum? It's probably a reasonably large file.

Just upload it to to iCloud, Dropbox, Google Drive, etc., make sure it is appropriately set to be shared, and provide a link.

Great advice here, thanks. Seems that re-recording and capturing the MIDI is probably my best bet going forward.

Out of interest, what software would you use to convert to MIDI? I've used Ableton for this in the past with mixed results. The app Chord AI actually does this pretty well too.

Thanks for the video @klownshed . I've actually watched that several times in the past and have been super inspired by it, but when I sit down to do it myself it just ends up a mess! haha.

telecharge

@SpookyZoo said:
Out of interest, what software would you use to convert to MIDI?

I use Melodyne.

JanKun

Feel free to share a file played to a click whenever you have one. As for basic recommendations, I would personally stay away from using piano MIDI part to layer unless your goal is to get rid of the piano at the end and create an orchestral version of the piano part. If you want to create a string orchestration that complement your piano part, I believe it is crucial to create individual voicings with their own motions.
An orchestra is basically composed of 5 sections but make it simple first and reduce it to 4 parts with either 2nd violins or violas to reinforced the violins by playing one octave under. You can make it even more simple by reducing to 3 voices (having double bass and cello playing the same part).
Think about the type of articulations you want to use. Spitfire usually have a large choice of articulations. For exemple it is good to mix legato parts with staccato to bring dynamic. You can create beautiful "pad like" layers by combining violins playing harmonics and tremolo or trills at very low velocity. Think in terms of dynamic too, using the different velocity in your library (especially when playing in legato).
But the most important thing is to try to internalise what you want to hear. Think in terms of individual melodies. Sing the parts you want to hear and transcribe them. When creating melody, I find that very often it is the rhythm of a melody that matters the most and not necessarily the note played. For exemple, if your piece in 4/4, include triplets in your melody to bring variety, it works great.
For harmonization, purists usually say you should avoid parallel motions but coming from rock and punk where the power chord is the king, I don't care about that. But something that works very well when trying to build interesting chord voicings is to use contrary and oblique motions (check on the net, it is very well documented).
But again, I cannot emphasize enough on the fact that you should try to sing the parts you want to hear and transcribe them. This is the best way to get something that is entirely yours, without relying on recipes found on internet. You compose great piano pieces, you certainly have interesting melodies inside of you.

SpookyZoo

@JanKun said:
Feel free to share a file played to a click whenever you have one. As for basic recommendations, I would personally stay away from using piano MIDI part to layer unless your goal is to get rid of the piano at the end and create an orchestral version of the piano part. If you want to create a string orchestration that complement your piano part, I believe it is crucial to create individual voicings with their own motions.
An orchestra is basically composed of 5 sections but make it simple first and reduce it to 4 parts with either 2nd violins or violas to reinforced the violins by playing one octave under. You can make it even more simple by reducing to 3 voices (having double bass and cello playing the same part).
Think about the type of articulations you want to use. Spitfire usually have a large choice of articulations. For exemple it is good to mix legato parts with staccato to bring dynamic. You can create beautiful "pad like" layers by combining violins playing harmonics and tremolo or trills at very low velocity. Think in terms of dynamic too, using the different velocity in your library (especially when playing in legato).
But the most important thing is to try to internalise what you want to hear. Think in terms of individual melodies. Sing the parts you want to hear and transcribe them. When creating melody, I find that very often it is the rhythm of a melody that matters the most and not necessarily the note played. For exemple, if your piece in 4/4, include triplets in your melody to bring variety, it works great.
For harmonization, purists usually say you should avoid parallel motions but coming from rock and punk where the power chord is the king, I don't care about that. But something that works very well when trying to build interesting chord voicings is to use contrary and oblique (check on the net, it is very well documented).
But again, I cannot emphasize enough on the fact that you should try to sing the parts you want to hear and transcribe them. This is the best way to get something that is entirely yours, without relying on recipes found on internet. You compose great piano pieces, you certainly have interesting melodies inside of you.

This is gold. Thank you sir!

I'll give these suggestions a go and report back. 🙏

SpookyZoo

@telecharge said:

@SpookyZoo said:
Out of interest, what software would you use to convert to MIDI?

I use Melodyne.

Thanks @telecharge Interesting. How do you find the results? Is there much cleaning up of unwanted notes needed afterwards?

telecharge

@SpookyZoo It works better than anything else I've tried, but it depends on the source material you're converting. More info here, if you're interested: https://helpcenter.celemony.com/M5/doc/melodyneStudio5/en/M5tour_AudioAlgorithms?env=standAlone

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

For a piece like this the string part should be transparent, with only one or two notes at a time. Fat chords are not the way to go.

I would improvise very simple, sustained melodies on a string synth to accompany this piece. One note melodies, not chords. To build it up, bring in a second counterpoint melody later in the piece.

Ben

This is a lovely piece @SpookyZoo. I believe @JanKun’s advice is spot on:
“But again, I cannot emphasize enough on the fact that you should try to sing the parts you want to hear and transcribe them. This is the best way to get something that is entirely yours, without relying on recipes found on internet”

jwmmakerofmusic

Maybe PM me the audio file, tell me the bom, and I can try something.

SpookyZoo

Hey guys. Thanks for all the tips, feedback and offers. Much appreciated!

Re-recording the track seems like my best next step and I can then share the file with anyone who is still interested.

Cheers!

jwmmakerofmusic

@SpookyZoo said:
Hey guys. Thanks for all the tips, feedback and offers. Much appreciated!

Re-recording the track seems like my best next step and I can then share the file with anyone who is still interested.

Cheers!

Sounds good. I'll still be interested.

klownshed

My advice is simple. Just do it. Here’s what I would do — but I’m far from an expert!

Use your Albion library and set up tracks with say the ensemble legatos and play one line at a time.

Don’t expect to get it right first time. Just play with one at a time going around the cycle region until you get something you like. Rinse. Repeat.

Also use lots of modulation. The spitfire strings make a lot of use of cc1 modulation and cc11 expression. After you get a line you like overdub or automate the expression and modulation to give movement to the strings. Use a fader to pseudo bow the strings. Also give yourself room for the dynamics to increase in the right places. Don’t start with everything wound up to 11 as there’s nowhere to go from there. :-)

I’m just an amateur myself. It’s easy to get overwhelmed with too many options so keep the articulations/presets simple to start. Only add a different articulation when you know you need it.

You can get a long way just with legato ensembles. :-)

Here are a couple of my ham fisted attempts at orchestral type stuff:

Made with spitfire originals (cheap), Labs (free) and appassionata (not so cheap but so good)

Made with ‘just’ spitfire originals and labs.

Still feeling my way with them to be honest. I’m enjoying playing around with orchestral stuff even though I don’t know what I’m doing — just going by ear. I only got my first originals libraries in the recent Xmas sale.

Bruques

@SpookyZoo said:
Hi guys, I'm a bit stuck here and would genuinely like some advice on adding some string instruments to this piano track.

I'm asking more about the timeline of the track and the style of orchestration you would suggest.

I have access to a couple of Spitfire string libraries (Albion Tundra etc) but it's just not my forte and I don't really have a clue where to start.

I'd say that the track is probably in Ab minor.

It's just a rough take of the song. (bit messy in the middle)

Thanks in advance for any advice

Samuel Adler's book is a classic on the subject

Albeit it's supposedly for jazz, the Lowell and Pullig book from Berklee is amazingly rich.

Because the source material is relatively simple maybe borrowing some Jules Buckley-isms. Or Larry Gold-isms. If you happen to check out their arrangements and steal something.

Pick a few particular places where you most want to put a counterline in a string voice, not all the time, not all the sections, and just a simple not harmonized voice just to establish for yourself a top(counter) line, then, at least at points, if you know you don't want a simple counter, accompany that counter line to make it a 3 or 4 voice chord, that only occasionally is the same voicing as the piano. and mix and match between sustained things and other articulation types. as the counter line moves IE doesn't stay on one note, don't stick with your same chord voicing just inverted, be sure to change the chord voicing not just inversion. So for one hypothetical example if the counter line, happens to sustain at some point on a a Bb note, over the Ab minor chord (the 9th then is the chord tone in question), you might very obviously accompany it with the 3rd, 5th, 7th, of the Ab minor chord and so the strings are their own 4 voice chord that happens to look like a B major 7 if it was on its own but of course it is not, and this is regaardless of whether the piano chord was voiced as a minor 9 chord, we're just using any of the notes of the fully extended chord in order to arrange. (and you might use the ideas of S A T B soprano alto tenor bass, to distribute notes between different strings, and you might also double them, or triple them, and you might also duplicate that in horns to make it real orchestral. and when the counter melody line moves to something other than the Bb you as I said probably don't keep accompanying with the 3rd 5th and 7th, you change the chord, or at least the voicing, and in passing sometimes that chord may even allow for a superimposing just momentarily of some tension as you play something slightly outside of a pure Ab minor just for a second if at all, and if so most likely on the "and" not on the beat, or not, if that's too weird in this context. and you might "drop" a note of the voicing to make it more interesting.
And probably make use of the idea of "smooth voice leading" as all the voices usually move the smallest amount to some next note which thus keeps it smooth.

Hopefully that makes any sense, and has some value?

SpookyZoo

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
For a piece like this the string part should be transparent, with only one or two notes at a time. Fat chords are not the way to go.

I would improvise very simple, sustained melodies on a string synth to accompany this piece. One note melodies, not chords. To build it up, bring in a second counterpoint melody later in the piece.

Thanks @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I can see myself tackling this individually using all the different approaches suggested already. Your suggestion of String Synth reminded me that I have some Novation Peak patches (by Mike Lewis) that may well be useful in trying this method.

@Ben said:
This is a lovely piece @SpookyZoo. I believe @JanKun’s advice is spot on:
“But again, I cannot emphasize enough on the fact that you should try to sing the parts you want to hear and transcribe them. This is the best way to get something that is entirely yours, without relying on recipes found on internet”

Thanks @Ben I appreciate the listen and kind words. Yes, there is some great advice on this thread here already. Just what I needed.

@klownshed said:
My advice is simple. Just do it.

Jumping in at the deep end...not a bad suggestion. Enjoyed your examples, cheers!

@Bruques said:

Samuel Adler's book is a classic on the subject

Albeit it's supposedly for jazz, the Lowell and Pullig book from Berklee is amazingly rich.

Because the source material is relatively simple maybe borrowing some Jules Buckley-isms. Or Larry Gold-isms. If you happen to check out their arrangements and steal something.

Pick a few particular places where you most want to put a counterline in a string voice, not all the time, not all the sections, and just a simple not harmonized voice just to establish for yourself a top(counter) line, then, at least at points, if you know you don't want a simple counter, accompany that counter line to make it a 3 or 4 voice chord, that only occasionally is the same voicing as the piano. and mix and match between sustained things and other articulation types. as the counter line moves IE doesn't stay on one note, don't stick with your same chord voicing just inverted, be sure to change the chord voicing not just inversion. So for one hypothetical example if the counter line, happens to sustain at some point on a a Bb note, over the Ab minor chord (the 9th then is the chord tone in question), you might very obviously accompany it with the 3rd, 5th, 7th, of the Ab minor chord and so the strings are their own 4 voice chord that happens to look like a B major 7 if it was on its own but of course it is not, and this is regaardless of whether the piano chord was voiced as a minor 9 chord, we're just using any of the notes of the fully extended chord in order to arrange. (and you might use the ideas of S A T B soprano alto tenor bass, to distribute notes between different strings, and you might also double them, or triple them, and you might also duplicate that in horns to make it real orchestral. and when the counter melody line moves to something other than the Bb you as I said probably don't keep accompanying with the 3rd 5th and 7th, you change the chord, or at least the voicing, and in passing sometimes that chord may even allow for a superimposing just momentarily of some tension as you play something slightly outside of a pure Ab minor just for a second if at all, and if so most likely on the "and" not on the beat, or not, if that's too weird in this context. and you might "drop" a note of the voicing to make it more interesting.
And probably make use of the idea of "smooth voice leading" as all the voices usually move the smallest amount to some next note which thus keeps it smooth.

Hopefully that makes any sense, and has some value?

I really appreciate you taking the time to provide this wonderful advice. That's my weekend sorted!

It does make sense and plenty of value, many thanks!

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

For inspiration, two examples of brilliant string writing in support of a piano solo:

SpookyZoo

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
For inspiration, two examples of brilliant string writing in support of a piano solo:

Thank you for these examples. It's interesting that in both these examples (jazz?) that the orchestration appears to be used in a 'call and response' type manner.

I hadn't heard either track previously, so it was good to listen to something new, cheers!

I'm wondering if I'm aiming more for something along the lines of Ólafur Arnalds. Even though the strings in his music often sound simple, I still couldn't get close to emulating it.

I guess this is why people collaborate! haha

espiegel123

@SpookyZoo said:

I'm wondering if I'm aiming more for something along the lines of Ólafur Arnalds. Even though the strings in his music often sound simple, I still couldn't get close to emulating it.

I guess this is why people collaborate! haha

If you are aiming for that style orchestration, lots of listening and practice…and some study of counterpoint and/or arranging would be in order (or just lists of studying things you like and imitating them if your ear is good).

Arranging takes lots of practice …and as you do more of it, you will start to hear and appreciate details that you probably don’t yet hear.

telecharge

@SpookyZoo I kinda got a halftime vibe from those Ólafur Arnalds strings. Maybe something like that would help?

MobileMusicPro did a video covering their top 5 picks: Fly Tap‪e‬, Effectri‪x‬, SlowMoF‪X‬, Enso Loope‪r, and Slow Machin‪e
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/43805/top-5-auv3-halftime-apps

Edward_Alexander

@SpookyZoo the original piano piece is beautiful all on its own. You might feel it’s a “rough take” or “messy” at points, but that’s all part of what makes it beautiful and full of character. I can understand wanting to add some orchestration to it, but If it were me, I’d leave it alone. If you must, I’d say, a very minimal string accompaniment, like a single cello.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@SpookyZoo said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
For inspiration, two examples of brilliant string writing in support of a piano solo:

Thank you for these examples. It's interesting that in both these examples (jazz?) that the orchestration appears to be used in a 'call and response' type manner.

I hadn't heard either track previously, so it was good to listen to something new, cheers!

I'm wondering if I'm aiming more for something along the lines of Ólafur Arnalds. Even though the strings in his music often sound simple, I still couldn't get close to emulating it.

I guess this is why people collaborate! haha

Yes, the two examples I posted are maximalist. I agree that a more minimalist approach would work better for your piece. The Arnalds video is lovely. Wow.

jwmmakerofmusic

@Edward_Alexander said:
@SpookyZoo the original piano piece is beautiful all on its own. You might feel it’s a “rough take” or “messy” at points, but that’s all part of what makes it beautiful and full of character. I can understand wanting to add some orchestration to it, but If it were me, I’d leave it alone. If you must, I’d say, a very minimal string accompaniment, like a single cello.

I agree with the original piece being beautiful on its own. Maybe light orchestral strings playing chords, but that's all I'd ever add.

JanKun

Here are some of my orchestral work made with Staffpad using third party libraries including spitfire

Listen to Paraît-il (Oripeaux) by JanKun on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/fQKTY

Listen to In Frantic Waves (McD & JanKun collaboration) by JanKun on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/rB95K

Listen to Metropolis (Michael Levy & JanKun) by JanKun on #SoundCloud
https://on.soundcloud.com/mVd9c

All of these orchestrations were made starting from piano parts.

There is also a cover of Iron & Wine including some strings that I think you listened to and commented on.

Hope these can bring some ideas for your weekend even though these are not necessarily in the same mood as your track.

SpookyZoo

Thank you all for your generous advice and feedback. I'm very much looking forward to taking it all on board and experimenting this weekend.

Have a great weekend all! 👍🎶

jwmmakerofmusic

@SpookyZoo said:
Thank you all for your generous advice and feedback. I'm very much looking forward to taking it all on board and experimenting this weekend.

Have a great weekend all! 👍🎶

Sounds good. Keep us all updated.

NeuM

There’s no ‘one way ‘ to do anything in music. My advice: Experiment. Play with some ideas. And if you need ideas, there are thousands of great artists to turn to for inspiration, from modern to classical.