Steve Harwell (of Smash Mouth) passed at age 56.

jwmmakerofmusic

I used to love this band as a teen, and I'm shocked he passed on so young. Legend.

EDIT: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/steve-harwell-smash-mouth-singer-dead-obituary-1234817636/

shinyisshiny

major bummer. RIP. alcoholism is a real disease and has real consequences, society is way too quick to give a pass to it.

Gavinski

@shinyisshiny said:
major bummer. RIP. alcoholism is a real disease and has real consequences, society is way too quick to give a pass to it.

Yes, alcoholism is a still very misunderstood condition, and, I think, much more common than most people realise. RIP Steve Harwell, and condolences to those left behind.

michael_m

@Gavinski said:

@shinyisshiny said:
major bummer. RIP. alcoholism is a real disease and has real consequences, society is way too quick to give a pass to it.

Yes, alcoholism is a still very misunderstood condition, and, I think, much more common than most people realise. RIP Steve Harwell, and condolences to those left behind.

Definitely. The warning signs are always there, but it’s all to rare that people get the treatment they need. We need to do better.

jwmmakerofmusic

Exactly mates. People get on my case for being addicted to nicotine. These same people drink more alcohol per sitting than I ever do. While vaping IS bad for my health and effing expensive, I think alcohol addiction is far more dangerous and expensive since it's far more easily accessible. We need to do better as a society to raise awareness of the dangers of alcohol.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's "everything in moderation". It's why I never drink in my flat. I always go out if I want a sip of something.

NeuM

@Gavinski said:

@shinyisshiny said:
major bummer. RIP. alcoholism is a real disease and has real consequences, society is way too quick to give a pass to it.

Yes, alcoholism is a still very misunderstood condition, and, I think, much more common than most people realise. RIP Steve Harwell, and condolences to those left behind.

I know you're not the one who said it was, but alcoholism is an addiction, not a disease. Addictions can be addressed and overcome, whereas a disease may be beyond the control of an individual. Even addicts are capable of making decisions which will only continue to harm them.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/addiction/is-addiction-disease

Gavinski

@NeuM said:

@Gavinski said:

@shinyisshiny said:
major bummer. RIP. alcoholism is a real disease and has real consequences, society is way too quick to give a pass to it.

Yes, alcoholism is a still very misunderstood condition, and, I think, much more common than most people realise. RIP Steve Harwell, and condolences to those left behind.

Alcoholism is an addiction, not a disease. Addictions can be addressed and overcome, whereas a disease may be beyond the control of an individual. Even addicts are capable of making decisions which will only continue to harm them.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/addiction/is-addiction-disease

Not sure if you're addressing this to the room or to me, but note that I very specifically, and with intention, called it a condition, I did not call it a disease.

NeuM

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@Gavinski said:

@shinyisshiny said:
major bummer. RIP. alcoholism is a real disease and has real consequences, society is way too quick to give a pass to it.

Yes, alcoholism is a still very misunderstood condition, and, I think, much more common than most people realise. RIP Steve Harwell, and condolences to those left behind.

Alcoholism is an addiction, not a disease. Addictions can be addressed and overcome, whereas a disease may be beyond the control of an individual. Even addicts are capable of making decisions which will only continue to harm them.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/addiction/is-addiction-disease

Not sure if you're addressing this to the room or to me, but note that I very specifically, and with intention, called it a condition, I did not call it a disease.

Yes, I modified it shortly after posting to remove that possible implication. Sorry for the confusion.

Gavinski

@NeuM said:

@Gavinski said:

@NeuM said:

@Gavinski said:

@shinyisshiny said:
major bummer. RIP. alcoholism is a real disease and has real consequences, society is way too quick to give a pass to it.

Yes, alcoholism is a still very misunderstood condition, and, I think, much more common than most people realise. RIP Steve Harwell, and condolences to those left behind.

Alcoholism is an addiction, not a disease. Addictions can be addressed and overcome, whereas a disease may be beyond the control of an individual. Even addicts are capable of making decisions which will only continue to harm them.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/addiction/is-addiction-disease

Not sure if you're addressing this to the room or to me, but note that I very specifically, and with intention, called it a condition, I did not call it a disease.

Yes, I modified it shortly after posting to remove that possible implication. Sorry for the confusion.

🔥 Cheers (Oops, wrong thread to be casually saying cheers in 🤐)​

GUB

That addictions can be addressed and overcome while diseases may be beyond an individual's control seems like an imperfect distinction. Diseases may in certain instances also be within an individual's control, like some addictions. And I'm not sure all addictions can be addressed and overcome. How would one establish that, unless there is some addiction treatment that is proven to be 100% successful?

pricklyrobot

It seems like a bit of a “distinction without a difference”. And frequently it’s just a preface to a condescending lecture about “discipline” and “self control”.

People suffer from all manner of things they could theoretically control, but in practical reality can’t. The fact that psychology, rather than physiology, is the culprit doesn’t make them any less deserving of a bit of empathy and understanding.

NeuM

@pricklyrobot said:
It seems like a bit of a “distinction without a difference”. And frequently it’s just a preface to a condescending lecture about “discipline” and “self control”.

People suffer from all manner of things they could theoretically control, but in practical reality can’t. The fact that psychology, rather than physiology, is the culprit doesn’t make them any less deserving of a bit of empathy and understanding.

I enjoyed the music he created as much as anyone, but the subject of this thread is dead because of his addiction. There are more mild and less destructive addictions, but alcoholism is not one of them. Alcoholism isn't something to dance around. It's all bad.

pricklyrobot

No-one’s trying to downplay the dangers of alcoholism. I actually had a friend from college, my age (late 40s), die from liver failure earlier this year.

The thing some people seem to be taking issue with is your apparent insistence on reminding people that addiction is strictly a moral failing, rather than an affliction. When, in reality it’s surely a bit of both.
But maybe I’m misinterpreting the axe you’re trying to grind here?

MrStochastic

Although I like drinking a certain amount, I have known friends who died from alcohol and I definitely believe there must be a physiological difference in people with such addictions.

For myself I have a very definite “cutoff point” beyond which I have no interest in passing. It doesn’t require any kind of will-power to decide to stop. But those I’ve known with the problem do not seem to have any kind of sense of “too much”.
In fact I saw many times where they were obviously totally bombed but talked like they just didn’t feel anything; they often seemed disappointed that their drinks just weren’t helping them feel drunk enough.

It was sad to see. One guy who played bass in a group I was in, would at some point just start hitting random notes obliviously.
There must be something different in brain chemistry; not just a psychological problem.

NeuM

@Stochastically said:
Although I like drinking a certain amount, I have known friends who died from alcohol and I definitely believe there must be a physiological difference in people with such addictions.

For myself I have a very definite “cutoff point” beyond which I have no interest in passing. It doesn’t require any kind of will-power to decide to stop. But those I’ve known with the problem do not seem to have any kind of sense of “too much”.
In fact I saw many times where they were obviously totally bombed but talked like they just didn’t feel anything; they often seemed disappointed that their drinks just weren’t helping them feel drunk enough.

It was sad to see. One guy who played bass in a group I was in, would at some point just start hitting random notes obliviously.
There must be something different in brain chemistry; not just a psychological problem.

Of course, one's brain and body chemistry are affected when doused with alcohol. That still doesn't make it a disease. Drugs and alcohol are taken voluntarily. The don't harm anyone without an individual taking action and choosing to ingest them.

Edward_Alexander

My best friend died from the same thing back in 2005. Alcoholism, which led to cirrhosis of the liver, is what ended his life at the young age of 40.

He was born with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth. He had everything. Growing up in a wealthy family and eventually inherited the family business, you could not tell this guy anything. He was partying hard every day (I know, I was right there on the bar stool next to him, and was also employed by his family for almost 20 years).

Before I, or any of his other friends or family realized it, he got real sick. By the time we finally convinced him to see a doctor it was too late. They told him he could get on the 3-month long waiting list for a liver transplant, but to even get on this list, he’d have to have quit drinking, and be clean for 6 months first.

He died 5 weeks later.

To anyone that may have friends or family members who are battling alcoholism, please don’t ignore the warning signs, and do what you can to try to get them some help. I know they say “you can’t help someone who isn’t willing to help themselves”, but you’ve got to try! Living a lifetime of regret knowing that you did nothing, well, it’s rough.

NeuM

@Edward_Alexander said:
My best friend died from the same thing back in 2005. Alcoholism, which led to cirrhosis of the liver, is what ended his life at the young age of 40.

He was born with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth. He had everything. Growing up in a wealthy family and eventually inherited the family business, you could not tell this guy anything. He was partying hard every day (I know, I was right there on the bar stool next to him, and was also employed by his family for almost 20 years).

Before I, or any of his other friends or family realized it, he got real sick. By the time we finally convinced him to see a doctor it was too late. They told him he could get on the 3-month long waiting list for a liver transplant, but to even get on this list, he’d have to have quit drinking, and be clean for 6 months first.

He died 5 weeks later.

To anyone that may have friends or family members who are battling alcoholism, please don’t ignore the warning signs, and do what you can to try to get them some help. I know they say “you can’t help someone who isn’t willing to help themselves”, but you’ve got to try! Living a lifetime of regret knowing that you did nothing, well, it’s rough.

My sympathies for the loss of your friend. One thing I'll add here: An alcoholic or addict cannot be convinced to do the right thing. They either hit rock bottom and change their life or they die. Those are the choices. And there's nothing anyone else can do to change them. I've seen it happen over and over again. Even if a spouse, friend or relative tries to change them, it won't help. It will ruin two (or more) lives, not just one.

shinyisshiny

@NeuM said:

@Edward_Alexander said:
My best friend died from the same thing back in 2005. Alcoholism, which led to cirrhosis of the liver, is what ended his life at the young age of 40.

He was born with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth. He had everything. Growing up in a wealthy family and eventually inherited the family business, you could not tell this guy anything. He was partying hard every day (I know, I was right there on the bar stool next to him, and was also employed by his family for almost 20 years).

Before I, or any of his other friends or family realized it, he got real sick. By the time we finally convinced him to see a doctor it was too late. They told him he could get on the 3-month long waiting list for a liver transplant, but to even get on this list, he’d have to have quit drinking, and be clean for 6 months first.

He died 5 weeks later.

To anyone that may have friends or family members who are battling alcoholism, please don’t ignore the warning signs, and do what you can to try to get them some help. I know they say “you can’t help someone who isn’t willing to help themselves”, but you’ve got to try! Living a lifetime of regret knowing that you did nothing, well, it’s rough.

My sympathies for the loss of your friend. One thing I'll add here: An alcoholic or addict cannot be convinced to do the right thing. They either hit rock bottom and change their life or they die. Those are the choices. And there's nothing anyone else can do to change them. I've seen it happen over and over again. Even if a spouse, friend or relative tries to change them, it won't help. It will ruin two (or more) lives, not just one.

while this holds some truth, its not so black and white. sometimes an addict just needs to hear for the 1000th time that they are loved and to please take care of themselves. that may be the rock bottom they needed to hit.

maxwellhouser

RIP

Gavinski

@pricklyrobot said:
No-one’s trying to downplay the dangers of alcoholism. I actually had a friend from college, my age (late 40s), die from liver failure earlier this year.

The thing some people seem to be taking issue with is your apparent insistence on reminding people that addiction is strictly a moral failing, rather than an affliction. When, in reality it’s surely a bit of both.
But maybe I’m misinterpreting the axe you’re trying to grind here?

To be clear, that is certainly not something I agree with, but it would seem to fit within the general tone of NeuM's world view, which is one I can rarely find agreement with.

It's still helpful to at least discuss the differences between a disease, an illness, a condition, addiction, and the nature of addiction and all behaviour in general. In our modern society I think there are few people who couldn't be classified as having, at any given time, some sort of addiction, and this forum, being a forum of both musicians and app collectors, likely has a larger than average number of people with addictive behaviours.

Gavinski

@NeuM said:

@Stochastically said:
Although I like drinking a certain amount, I have known friends who died from alcohol and I definitely believe there must be a physiological difference in people with such addictions.

For myself I have a very definite “cutoff point” beyond which I have no interest in passing. It doesn’t require any kind of will-power to decide to stop. But those I’ve known with the problem do not seem to have any kind of sense of “too much”.
In fact I saw many times where they were obviously totally bombed but talked like they just didn’t feel anything; they often seemed disappointed that their drinks just weren’t helping them feel drunk enough.

It was sad to see. One guy who played bass in a group I was in, would at some point just start hitting random notes obliviously.
There must be something different in brain chemistry; not just a psychological problem.

Of course, one's brain and body chemistry are affected when doused with alcohol. That still doesn't make it a disease. Drugs and alcohol are taken voluntarily. The don't harm anyone without an individual taking action and choosing to ingest them.

This is such a naive view of human nature and of the concepts of volition and freedom, sorry. I have no interest in getting into a debate about it here, though I'm sure there are others who will be

Tovokas

And as much crap as the band gets, I still thinking Walking on the Sun is a fun, inventive tune. Rest in peace.

jwmmakerofmusic

So many interesting points of view on the topic of alcoholism. Whether it's a disease or a condition or an altered state of mind, I think we can all agree that alcoholism is a tragedy that society needs to be more aware of.

michael_m

Arguing semantics here is not a particularly appropriate way of showing respect for a person who has recently passed. I think we’re all agreed that alcoholism is a terrible thing, so let’s leave it at that.

Gavinski

@michael_m said:
Arguing semantics here is not a particularly appropriate way of showing respect for a person who has recently passed. I think we’re all agreed that alcoholism is a terrible thing, so let’s leave it at that.

Agreed

sbcfx

Yes that is a great tune @Tovokas let’s not paint it black people. He sold over 10million records and as we all know here that is a dream to us.

He walked away from the spotlight so he was trying to help himself. Rest in peace Steve

jwmmakerofmusic

@michael_m said:
Arguing semantics here is not a particularly appropriate way of showing respect for a person who has recently passed. I think we’re all agreed that alcoholism is a terrible thing, so let’s leave it at that.

Exactly. This is why I said "alcoholism is a tragedy", something I think we all agree on here. Trying to help find that middle ground.

JeffChasteen

Rest In Peace

HotStrange

Was/am a huge fan of Smashmouth. I’m slightly younger than some and was maybe around 10 or so when they blew up around 1999-2000. Their early albums were genuinely great. Steve had a rough life during his last 10 years. Losing his son seemed to have taken a big toll.

RIP Steve ❤️ 🪦