Is it possible to make a synth patch with alternating envelopes? Any ideas?

MrStochastic

for example, a patch that alternates between a hard fast attack and a soft longer attack with every note-on message?
Is this a simple and obvious setting I’ve overlooked or an impossibility? It seems like it would be in the category of a round robin kind of thing.

hghon

S&H modulating envelope attack would do just that

michael_m

The only thing that comes to mind is Audulus. Maybe you can do it with miRack or Drambo if you can use MIDI to switch the path from one envelope to another.

pedro

Or two layers each with its envelope, then you switch which is active as final modulation source

Grandbear

@michael_m said:
The only thing that comes to mind is Audulus. Maybe you can do it with miRack or Drambo if you can use MIDI to switch the path from one envelope to another.

It should be possible to use the voice number to select among two envelope modulators. @Stochastically if Drambo is a valid alternative I can give it a try.

bygjohn

It should be possible to do it in MiRack.

However, you could try just modulating the attack with a square wave LFO, ie alternating between short and long values. Might work if tempo synced, but if you’re wanting to play manually you’d need to mess with logic/switches etc which would need something modular, probably.

wim

If you have Mozaic, here's a script that will send an alternating CC value on each note received. You can configure the cc, the channel, and the two values.

To use AUv3 parameters to control the Attack, route the controller to the script, then the script to both the app to play and to the host's midi control system. Set or midi learn the channel+cc for the attack AUv3 parameter.

If the synth has it's own midi learn system then you can route the controller to the script and the script to the synth, then midi learn to the attack knob in the synth.

@Description
Send alternating CC values on Note-On
@End

@OnLoad
  if Unassigned init
    init = YES
    chan = 0
    cc = 20
    v1 = 10
    v2 = 120
    alt = NO
    SetKnobValue 0,v1
    SetKnobValue 1,v2
    SetKnobValue 2,chan
    SetKnobValue 3,cc
    LabelKnob 0,{v1: }, v1
    LabelKnob 1,{v2: }, v2
    LabelKnob 2,{ch: }, (chan+1)
    LabelKnob 3,{cc: }, cc
    LabelKnobs {Settings}
    SetShortName {ALT-CC}
    ShowLayout 4
  endif
@End

@OnMidiNoteOn
  if alt
    SendMIDICC chan,cc,v2
  else
    SendMIDICC chan,cc,v1
  endif
  alt = not alt
@End

@OnMidiInput
  SendMIDIThru
@End

@OnSysex
  SendSysexThru
@End

@OnKnobChange
  knob = LastKnob
  value = GetKnobValue knob
  
  if knob = 0
    v1 = Round value
    LabelKnob 0,{v1: }, v1
  elseif knob = 1
    v2 = Round value
    LabelKnob 1,{v2: }, v2
  elseif knob = 2
    chan = Round (TranslateScale value,0,127,0,15)
    LabelKnob 2,{ch: }, (chan+1)
  elseif knob = 3
    cc = Round value
    LabelKnob 3,{cc: }, cc
  endif
@End

Poppadocrock

@wim you should put it on Patchstorage, please.

rs2000

Here's one that works with all kinds of envelope generators:

CV Sequ "Clock" is driven by the Gate signal from MIDI to CV and Morph is assigned to Amp Env Attack.
It also works with polyphonic signals if you increase the MIDI to CV "Voices" number.

Gavinski

Play into Polythemus (there's also a Mozaic script that does the same but I forget the name) and get it to send midi to 2 instances of the same synth playing the same patch but with different envelopes in each. Tweak Polythemus settings to get it to behave the way you want. Should be pretty simple.

MrStochastic

Thanks everyone! I'm going to be digesting all of this and getting back in more detail. I knew I could count on the forum for insights into this!

HotStrange

@wim said:
If you have Mozaic, here's a script that will send an alternating CC value on each note received. You can configure the cc, the channel, and the two values.

To use AUv3 parameters to control the Attack, route the controller to the script, then the script to both the app to play and to the host's midi control system. Set or midi learn the channel+cc for the attack AUv3 parameter.

If the synth has it's own midi learn system then you can route the controller to the script and the script to the synth, then midi learn to the attack knob in the synth.

@Description
Send alternating CC values on Note-On
@End

@OnLoad
  if Unassigned init
    init = YES
    chan = 0
    cc = 20
    v1 = 10
    v2 = 120
    alt = NO
    SetKnobValue 0,v1
    SetKnobValue 1,v2
    SetKnobValue 2,chan
    SetKnobValue 3,cc
    LabelKnob 0,{v1: }, v1
    LabelKnob 1,{v2: }, v2
    LabelKnob 2,{ch: }, (chan+1)
    LabelKnob 3,{cc: }, cc
    LabelKnobs {Settings}
    SetShortName {ALT-CC}
    ShowLayout 4
  endif
@End

@OnMidiNoteOn
  if alt
    SendMIDICC chan,cc,v2
  else
    SendMIDICC chan,cc,v1
  endif
  alt = not alt
@End

@OnMidiInput
  SendMIDIThru
@End

@OnSysex
  SendSysexThru
@End

@OnKnobChange
  knob = LastKnob
  value = GetKnobValue knob
  
  if knob = 0
    v1 = Round value
    LabelKnob 0,{v1: }, v1
  elseif knob = 1
    v2 = Round value
    LabelKnob 1,{v2: }, v2
  elseif knob = 2
    chan = Round (TranslateScale value,0,127,0,15)
    LabelKnob 2,{ch: }, (chan+1)
  elseif knob = 3
    cc = Round value
    LabelKnob 3,{cc: }, cc
  endif
@End

Thanks for sharing. Might give this a try later. Bram really did a great thing with Mozaic. So many cool scripts. I haven’t even tried 1/10 of them lol

hghon

I probably misunderstood your initial request
The method I replied above “S&H into env attack” would randomize the attack time for every note if the S&H is triggered by the note gate but I’m not sure if that’s what you want

If you want it to alternate at each note to be specifically one note with short attack and one note with a long one then the most precise way would be having 2 envelopes and route them by a “flip-flop” logic switch as @bygjohn said readily available in miRack

If you want to do it using an LFO use a tempo synced square but that assumes your notes are themselves tempo synced and are at regular intervals, and you’ll need to scale/offset the lfo to the amount of attack you want

I haven’t tried mozaic but it surely it can do the trick

I like @rs2000 ‘s method as well 👍

dendy

@Stochastically said:
for example, a patch that alternates between a hard fast attack and a soft longer attack with every note-on message?
Is this a simple and obvious setting I’ve overlooked or an impossibility? It seems like it would be in the category of a round robin kind of thing.

any synth where you can modulate envelope attack time with lfo, other envelope, velocity, etc.. for example Butter Synth

1/ assign LFO to env attack

2/ adjust also min value so it modulates in both direction, min is zero by default which means lfo would just add to attack, not lower it's value

3/ you may change lfo to random for more randomness

hghon

@dendy said:

@Stochastically said:
for example, a patch that alternates between a hard fast attack and a soft longer attack with every note-on message?
Is this a simple and obvious setting I’ve overlooked or an impossibility? It seems like it would be in the category of a round robin kind of thing.

any synth where you can modulate envelope attack time with lfo, other envelope, velocity, etc.. for example Butter Synth

1/ assign LFO to env attack

2/ adjust also min value so it modulates in both direction, min is zero by default which means lfo would just add to attack, not lower it's value

3/ you may change lfo to random for more randomness

If I understand correctly this is what I meant saying the notes will have to be synced to the clock, and the notes would have to be regularly and symmetrically alternating to sync to the clock and the LFO, but it wouldn’t work for free or “off grid” playing ie with a controller or by hand

VirSyn

@Stochastically said:
for example, a patch that alternates between a hard fast attack and a soft longer attack with every note-on message?
Is this a simple and obvious setting I’ve overlooked or an impossibility? It seems like it would be in the category of a round robin kind of thing.

Interesting idea...
Couldn't resist to try this out in Tera Pro using "Key alternate" modulation source on attack and release time:

rs2000

@hghon Round-robin kind of attack, no attack, attack ... with each note can also work with random LFO modulation if LFO speed is low enough and if the LFO can be re-triggered with each note.
Then it would also work with free / off-grid playing.

bygjohn

What a fascinating thread! So many creative solutions.

dendy

@hghon said:
If I understand correctly this is what I meant saying the notes will have to be synced to the clock, and the notes would have to be regularly and symmetrically alternating to sync to the clock and the LFO, but it wouldn’t work for free or “off grid” playing ie with a controller or by hand

not sure i understand ... this will simply do that every new note will start with different envelope attack time , no matter if played in sequencer or by hand on keyboard

hghon

Yes if the LFO is random and retriggers but I thought the question was specifically asking for 2 alternating options with the first at no attack and the second at some attack, I could be mistaken

Birdpie

key alternate as modulation source for envelope attack is the easiest solution.

Slam_Cut

Wouldn’t this be more of a velocity layered patch: soft triggers slow attack on OSC 1 and harder triggers fast attack on OSC 2? Obviously easier with a MIDI keyboard controller. Or is the fast/slow attack meant to be random?

hghon

@Slam_Cut said:
Wouldn’t this be more of a velocity layered patch: soft triggers slow attack on OSC 1 and harder triggers fast attack on OSC 2? Obviously easier with a MIDI keyboard controller. Or is the fast/slow attack meant to be random?

Yes, velocity control would make this much simpler than all our previous suggestions I think 😂 good idea

MrStochastic

@wim said:
If you have Mozaic, here's a script that will send an alternating CC value on each note received. You can configure the cc, the >channel, and the two values.

You nailed it 🏅 at least, for my purposes, to test out the idea. Whether it's musically useful is questionable. And polyphony adds some complications but on slow ambient streams it's functioning.

@VirSyn said:
Couldn't resist to try this out in Tera Pro using "Key alternate" modulation source on attack and release time:

also interesting.

@hghon said:

@Slam_Cut said:
Wouldn’t this be more of a velocity layered patch: soft triggers slow attack on OSC 1 and harder triggers fast attack on OSC 2? Obviously easier with a MIDI keyboard controller. Or is the fast/slow attack meant to be random?

Yes, velocity control would make this much simpler than all our previous suggestions I think 😂 good idea

This too; more to explore.