Soundproof "Sleeping chamber"

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

It seems an unlikely problem to me as well. Human senses are designed to take in an overwhelming amount of data and then filter and discard most of it. That's what we do.

Korakios

@SevenSystems said:
Is this a very outlandish thing to be looking for in today's noisy enough world? Has no company specialized in just producing person-sized sound-proof boxes at reasonable prices? (< $5k)

I think you should contact in person , a company that specializes on sound isolation . I bet that providing a solution ( materials , dimensions ) will be somewhat expensive , but buying the materials and building it yourself would be on your budget

Gavinski

@Korakios said:

@SevenSystems said:
Is this a very outlandish thing to be looking for in today's noisy enough world? Has no company specialized in just producing person-sized sound-proof boxes at reasonable prices? (< $5k)

I think you should contact in person , a company that specializes on sound isolation . I bet that providing a solution ( materials , dimensions ) will be somewhat expensive , but buying the materials and building it yourself would be on your budget

That sounds like a plan. Google soundproofing and at least give them a call. You might be able to glean enough info by asking the right questions to cobble something together yourself

SevenSystems

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

SevenSystems

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

It seems an unlikely problem to me as well. Human senses are designed to take in an overwhelming amount of data and then filter and discard most of it. That's what we do.

Then why is sleep necessary at all for survival?

el_bo

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

BroCoast

An isolation tank but don’t put water in it?

They cut -30db.

el_bo

@BroCoast said:
An isolation tank but don’t put water in it?

Or perhaps a couple of appointments with Mr. Blonde

Gavinski

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

el_bo

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

michael_m

@el_bo said:
Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

It’s definitely not easy to do, but worthwhile finding things to replace screen addiction. We’re all guilty of it!

AudioGus

@espiegel123 said:
Search for “sleep pod soundproof” . Seems to be pricey.

Earplugs don’t do any damage to your ears. If you haven’t experimented try different varieties. After a lot of trial and error my wife found some foam earplugs that are comfortable for her and quite a effective.

Tru dat, I have a local brand I have been using literally for decades. During covid they weren't made (PPE rubber shortage?) and I had to try many other brands but all gave me ear pain. The good ones came back but if they ever go away completely I would invest in a custom fitted pair.

Gavinski

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

el_bo

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

Gavinski

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

el_bo

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Gavinski

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Ah, it's plenty humid where I am and I do a lot of things to try to keep my eyes in decent shape, eyemask massage with steam treatment etc. Frankly it's just something I'll have to live with. Poor outcomes from cataract surgery are more common than you'd think, as a quick Google will show you. Some real nightmare stories out there too

el_bo

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Ah, it's plenty humid where I am and I do a lot of things to try to keep my eyes in decent shape, eyemask massage with steam treatment etc. Frankly it's just something I'll have to live with. Poor outcomes from cataract surgery are more common than you'd think, as a quick Google will show you. Some real nightmare stories out there too

I shoulda guessed you'd be trying everything to alleviate the suffering. As for Googling? I stopped that when i got to cataracts and advanced glaucoma. So I think I'll give it a pass

For the moment, I just gotta get away from screens. With that, I will leave ya.

Take care!

SevenSystems

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

Yes, but that's the same with any kind of "slight" chronic condition... many people complain about chronic fatigue and then spend years or decades running from doctor to doctor trying to diagnose the root cause(s). The body unfortunately is so complex that such "slight" malfunctions are probably mostly impossible to diagnose or fix.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

It's a valid point. I guess the difference might be that the general sounds of nature weren't as constant or loud, i.e. the amount of neuron firing was simply less intense in general back in stone age. i.e., less stress on them and less wearing-out. You're right that input still had be processed in past times, but there was arguably much less of it. But I'll admit that this is going into "original research" territory (which obviously isn't a bad thing on its own. It just depends on WHO does the research )

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

Yes, but all research shows that people who live in generally noisier areas are less healthy. So it certainly can't be irrelevant how much input there is to process all the time.

But it's a good discussion to have and interesting to hear input from others

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with fixing your health, that comes first!

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Thanks!

SevenSystems

@BroCoast said:
An isolation tank but don’t put water in it?

They cut -30db.

I don't trust naked dB figures -- I need to see the frequency chart! (bass)

SevenSystems

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Ah, it's plenty humid where I am and I do a lot of things to try to keep my eyes in decent shape, eyemask massage with steam treatment etc. Frankly it's just something I'll have to live with. Poor outcomes from cataract surgery are more common than you'd think, as a quick Google will show you. Some real nightmare stories out there too

Good luck, I have my share of eye problems as well (very violent PVD so I really have a huge amount of "bubbly garbage" floating around in one eye, noticeably deteriorated performance of the retina in some areas, very high myopia in general (-10 dpt), no stereo vision, and onset of clouding of vision in general, although I'm not sure if this is due to the lens becoming cloudy or the vitreous). Yeah... now we've all complained enough 😂 forum.healthb.us

Gavinski

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Ah, it's plenty humid where I am and I do a lot of things to try to keep my eyes in decent shape, eyemask massage with steam treatment etc. Frankly it's just something I'll have to live with. Poor outcomes from cataract surgery are more common than you'd think, as a quick Google will show you. Some real nightmare stories out there too

Good luck, I have my share of eye problems as well (very violent PVD so I really have a huge amount of "bubbly garbage" floating around in one eye, noticeably deteriorated performance of the retina in some areas, very high myopia in general (-10 dpt), no stereo vision, and onset of clouding of vision in general, although I'm not sure if this is due to the lens becoming cloudy or the vitreous). Yeah... now we've all complained enough 😂 forum.healthb.us

Damn, are we having a competition here? You win, by the sound of things. Well, what can you do but laugh, right? ....

I know another dev who has pretty bad eye problems. Screens are really not good for people with most eye problems. At least according to my doctor. Then again, she's the one who did my less-than-fully-successful cataract ops, so maybe I should take her recommendations with a pinch of salt 😅

SevenSystems

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Ah, it's plenty humid where I am and I do a lot of things to try to keep my eyes in decent shape, eyemask massage with steam treatment etc. Frankly it's just something I'll have to live with. Poor outcomes from cataract surgery are more common than you'd think, as a quick Google will show you. Some real nightmare stories out there too

Good luck, I have my share of eye problems as well (very violent PVD so I really have a huge amount of "bubbly garbage" floating around in one eye, noticeably deteriorated performance of the retina in some areas, very high myopia in general (-10 dpt), no stereo vision, and onset of clouding of vision in general, although I'm not sure if this is due to the lens becoming cloudy or the vitreous). Yeah... now we've all complained enough 😂 forum.healthb.us

Damn, are we having a competition here? You win, by the sound of things. Well, what can you do but laugh, right?

I didn't even WANT to win 😄 I'd much prefer to lose in such a competition!

I know another dev who has pretty bad eye problems. Screens are really not good for people with most eye problems. At least according to my doctor. Then again, she's the one who did my less-than-fully-successful cataract ops, so maybe I should take her recommendations with a pinch of salt 😅

Oh man, having a FIX for something making it worse, especially something irreversible, is of course extra suck territory. Not sure what her reasoning would be though for telling you that "spending time on screens" would be bad for cataracts... on the contrary I'd say spending time outdoors is worse (the UV light from the sun deteriorates the lens tissue, making it more cloudy).

Gavinski

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Ah, it's plenty humid where I am and I do a lot of things to try to keep my eyes in decent shape, eyemask massage with steam treatment etc. Frankly it's just something I'll have to live with. Poor outcomes from cataract surgery are more common than you'd think, as a quick Google will show you. Some real nightmare stories out there too

Good luck, I have my share of eye problems as well (very violent PVD so I really have a huge amount of "bubbly garbage" floating around in one eye, noticeably deteriorated performance of the retina in some areas, very high myopia in general (-10 dpt), no stereo vision, and onset of clouding of vision in general, although I'm not sure if this is due to the lens becoming cloudy or the vitreous). Yeah... now we've all complained enough 😂 forum.healthb.us

Damn, are we having a competition here? You win, by the sound of things. Well, what can you do but laugh, right?

I didn't even WANT to win 😄 I'd much prefer to lose in such a competition!

I know another dev who has pretty bad eye problems. Screens are really not good for people with most eye problems. At least according to my doctor. Then again, she's the one who did my less-than-fully-successful cataract ops, so maybe I should take her recommendations with a pinch of salt 😅

Oh man, having a FIX for something making it worse, especially something irreversible, is of course extra suck territory. Not sure what her reasoning would be though for telling you that "spending time on screens" would be bad for cataracts... on the contrary I'd say spending time outdoors is worse (the UV light from the sun deteriorates the lens tissue, making it more cloudy).

Ah, I think she was talking more about it being bad for dry eye etc. I think most experts say that to be fair, no?

SevenSystems

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Ah, it's plenty humid where I am and I do a lot of things to try to keep my eyes in decent shape, eyemask massage with steam treatment etc. Frankly it's just something I'll have to live with. Poor outcomes from cataract surgery are more common than you'd think, as a quick Google will show you. Some real nightmare stories out there too

Good luck, I have my share of eye problems as well (very violent PVD so I really have a huge amount of "bubbly garbage" floating around in one eye, noticeably deteriorated performance of the retina in some areas, very high myopia in general (-10 dpt), no stereo vision, and onset of clouding of vision in general, although I'm not sure if this is due to the lens becoming cloudy or the vitreous). Yeah... now we've all complained enough 😂 forum.healthb.us

Damn, are we having a competition here? You win, by the sound of things. Well, what can you do but laugh, right?

I didn't even WANT to win 😄 I'd much prefer to lose in such a competition!

I know another dev who has pretty bad eye problems. Screens are really not good for people with most eye problems. At least according to my doctor. Then again, she's the one who did my less-than-fully-successful cataract ops, so maybe I should take her recommendations with a pinch of salt 😅

Oh man, having a FIX for something making it worse, especially something irreversible, is of course extra suck territory. Not sure what her reasoning would be though for telling you that "spending time on screens" would be bad for cataracts... on the contrary I'd say spending time outdoors is worse (the UV light from the sun deteriorates the lens tissue, making it more cloudy).

Ah, I think she was talking more about it being bad for dry eye etc. I think most experts say that to be fair, no?

Hmmm, dry eye... because you don't blink as often as you're focused on a task? 🤔 not sure.

Gavinski

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@SevenSystems said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@Gavinski said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:

@el_bo said:

@SevenSystems said:
I have read lots of research over the years so I can't pinpoint any particular source, you'll just have to trust me (or your intuition, which, despite what governments tell people these days, is usually right anyway! )

It's not an issue of trust. I have no reason to distrust you. But I do have doubts questions about the science, which you have said you don't remember. Hopefully my eyes will improve soon and I'll dig in.

Edited to clarify: I believe that the mind is scanning and filtering sound even when we aren't aware of it, same with visual awareness. What I'm interested to know is how experiments would be able to quantify a hard end-point. It's not going to be too difficult to design short-term experiments that test mental acuity after various different sound exposures. But this is alway going to be new stimuli that's introduced for testing, and so presumably will arouse heightened attention. But it would be impossible to test whether over the longer-term the mind wouldn't also tune-out what it has already deemed unimportant noise.

How could hey predict that over years, decades etc. that the end-point is such a complete burnout?

There is various extensive research on this topic, also on long-term effects.

But it's not even necessary. When you say that "the mind would tune-out of what it deemed unimportant noise", this makes it sound like the "tuning out" is some kind of magical extra-physical process that "just happens" without any physical interaction or friction. Sadly this is not possible. As you said yourself, the mind is scanning. That's enough to be a problem. There's a part of the brain that has to constantly scan the incoming audio stimuli for patterns, no matter which patterns. Even if they are then deemed to be "unimportant", they first have to be deemed this process alone causes mental strain.

Sleep is meant to be as free of any kind of stimuli as possible in order for even those processing centers to relax.

And I'm not saying that bad sleep quality causes "complete" burnout. But it definitely doesn't improve long-term health let's say

Again...I'm struggling to imagine how long-term effects could be distinguished from the many other confounding variables that can affect sleep quality etc.

And yes, my intuition leans more towards thinking of the scanning and filtering as a much lower-level, almost 'idling in the background' process. And why would that be any different to how it was throughout our long evolution? If anything, wouldn't we have been on a consistently higher level of alert when, instead of the same constant rumbling of traffic, our minds would have to discern sounds of potential life-terminating predators from the general sounds of nature that we had to sleep right in the middle of.

The same of course, applies to constant visual awareness and filtering. Like @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr I'm more inclined to thinking this is just what we have evolved to do, and that we'll generally adapt to different levels over time.

As for sleeping being about processing centre relaxing? Not sure about that, either. Our brains and bodies are far from inert when we're sleeping. Our bodies are still perhaps digesting late meals, then assimilating the nutrients from the day, as well as detoxing enough of it all o keep us alive. And the brain seems to be busy doing admin work, helping solidify memory, learning etc. and also detoxing. Of course, there's an argument to be made that perhaps the constant vigilance might detract from that, but to what extent would be pure speculation on my part, and I'm not sure if it's going to be clear from the science.

In the end, it's up to you to decide how to approach it. and no problems paying whatever it takes, even if for no other reason than preference against hearing traffic at night. But I would b interested to dig into the science. Just can't at the moment. I really need to try an sort out my health , so will be offline for a while. But hopefully at some point I'll be able to look through some of the experiments. Will share if I find anything useful.

All the best with whichever solution you choose to go with 👍🏼

Interesting post. Good luck with your health, though - far far more important than this forum for sure

I’ll or not, there’s no excuse for not proofreading my posts before sending

Thanks for the well-wishes. Things have kinda come to a head, culminating in some serious sight issues. Can barely read, yet here I am posting.

Trying to get down from a 14-16 hour internet/screen addiction to checking my mail once per day is proving pretty difficult. But I'll work it out.

Thanks again 👍

Damn... I was in a similar position before I got my cataracts surgery a few years ago. When I made, for example, my Atom2 video, I was barely able to read. I had to connect my ipad to my TV and also had to wear pinhole glasses. Madness, I should have totally quit screens for a while around that time. Screens and internet stuff can be super addictive, no question about it. Terrible really...

I forgot you had that. Is everything back to normal?

Yeah...It's pretty effed-up at the moment. Various other untreated physical ailments have led to general worsening, but not as noticeable as this has become recently. The screen thing has been going on for years, also. But I think what has really put the symptoms over the edge was spending most of the Summer inside to avoid the heat and humidity. Add to that the dim 'mood' lit room and staring at a screen in 'Dark Mode' for the entire day. Now I'm getting ocular migraines, blurred-vision, difficulty reading and problems seeing in natural light etc. Great fun!

Anyway now that it's more comfortable to sit outside I think that's where i need to spend most of my time; at least until I see whether it's something that'll right itself.

Either way, everything has to change.

No, vision is good in my left eye but the right eye has terrible distance vision, especially at night, and its reading vision is not good either. It has also worsened since my ops. I have some kind of slight muscular membrane on the right eye, how quickly it will worsen I don't know, I hope not too quickly. Bad dry eye syndrome, light sensitivity etc. My cataract surgery was life changing alright but not in a good way. At least I can see. I hope your eyes improve. Sounds like you don't have an actual diagnosis maybe? You should probably try to get one. Eyes, like everything... You don't fully appreciate them til they start playing up on you!

I'm sorry to hear that, man! Have the doctors seen that kind of result before?

I used to have bad dry-ey for a while, after an eye injury. Had to use saline drops every day. But all that stopped when I move to a much more humid area. Not sure if you've thought to try using a humidifier in the main area where you spend your time and/or while you're sleeping.

Ah, it's plenty humid where I am and I do a lot of things to try to keep my eyes in decent shape, eyemask massage with steam treatment etc. Frankly it's just something I'll have to live with. Poor outcomes from cataract surgery are more common than you'd think, as a quick Google will show you. Some real nightmare stories out there too

Good luck, I have my share of eye problems as well (very violent PVD so I really have a huge amount of "bubbly garbage" floating around in one eye, noticeably deteriorated performance of the retina in some areas, very high myopia in general (-10 dpt), no stereo vision, and onset of clouding of vision in general, although I'm not sure if this is due to the lens becoming cloudy or the vitreous). Yeah... now we've all complained enough 😂 forum.healthb.us

Damn, are we having a competition here? You win, by the sound of things. Well, what can you do but laugh, right?

I didn't even WANT to win 😄 I'd much prefer to lose in such a competition!

I know another dev who has pretty bad eye problems. Screens are really not good for people with most eye problems. At least according to my doctor. Then again, she's the one who did my less-than-fully-successful cataract ops, so maybe I should take her recommendations with a pinch of salt 😅

Oh man, having a FIX for something making it worse, especially something irreversible, is of course extra suck territory. Not sure what her reasoning would be though for telling you that "spending time on screens" would be bad for cataracts... on the contrary I'd say spending time outdoors is worse (the UV light from the sun deteriorates the lens tissue, making it more cloudy).

Ah, I think she was talking more about it being bad for dry eye etc. I think most experts say that to be fair, no?

Hmmm, dry eye... because you don't blink as often as you're focused on a task? 🤔 not sure.

That’s one factor for sure - of course you can try to remember to blink very regularly - it’s hard!