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StaffPad rabbit hole questions
Hi All,
I don't know whether to bless or curse @Paulieworld for introducing me to StaffPad. Since he recommended it as an option for me to get into orchestral instrument music creation, I've been researching, but am suffering a bit of information overload with all the new stuff I'm trying to pick up.
I've been buying up apps & IAP's thick & fast in the Black Friday/Christmas sales, as the FOMO is real. My last purchase was GeoShred, and I was just about to look at the GeoSWAM/Naada instrument collection, along with PianoTeq 8 to get some higher quality instruments, and came to a big halt when looking at StaffPad. So, before I start with the never ending wallet-drain with the high purchase cost and follow up IAP's, I was hoping to just clarify a few things.
If I understand it correctly, I could use my other apps to create audio or midi data, and feed that into StaffPad for further manipulation, but then all you can get out is a fully rendered score audio? So any post-processing after that would be limited to single audio file manipulation?
It's a fully stand-alone app right, no AUV3 or similar?
I've read about some people having issues with the handwriting, which may or may not be an individual user problem. I see you can play live and have it listen/transcribe from audio or midi input directly. Is this only in real-time or could you, for example, play notes on a midi keyboard one by one, just to get them entered, then edit their duration/voicing etc manually, and a hybrid way of getting the music scored?
I noticed that StaffPad has had some big sale prices in previous years, but have not had any change in over 12 months. Does this mean it no longer goes on sale? Maybe no one know, but I wondering if holding out for a sale still is worth the time waiting?
Finally, how much of a rabbit hole are the IAP's? I know the Muse sounds come free, but what's the temptation to buy more/better/different sounds packs, once you start. I do have a bit of a Pokemon problem, when it comes to completing sets of things. The app store listing only shows the price for Berlin Strings, which is the same price as the app originally. I assume the other IAP's are similar prices, so it could be a big money sink if I got into it, and I'm only doing this as a hobby, not a profession. But, I don't drink or gamble, so we all have to have at least one vice, right?
Thanks for any thoughts on whether this is a good investment or not.
Comments
I can only talk of point 3, which is why I gave up on staffpad and didn’t go any deeper. It is just too slow and cumbersome for me. I’m faster writing on paper and then play or piano roll.
I was hoping for a fast way to put the music in my head on sheet music, with instant preview. It jus5 didn’t work for me. Got a refund for it after a week.
I assume you are an accomplished musician already then, who can create in their head easily? Being a newbie to music creation (I have some theory, but never practiced), I'm going to be slow anyway, so I can probably write as quick as I can think of it anyway. SO this may not be as much a limitation for me, and may help me learn to structure music as well, as it will be putting into practice, the theory I think I know already.
Calling @McD! It’ seems like a lot at first, but 20 years from now, what does a few hundred bucks mean? I am not associated with StaffPad in any way, but have heard some really great things in the hands of someone who has challenged the learning curve and prevailed. That would be our own @McD. I hope he will weigh in.
Ironically, I manufacture Pokémon products. I still don’t get it, but we make good money with it!
LOL.
Yes, I'll blame you again for pointing me to McD as well. Been listening to many of their tracks, and they're all amazing.
I’m not convinced I ever accomplished anything, and I hated my parents for forcing me to learn piano and music theory. Turns out I’m grateful for that now.
If you can read and write sheet music, know the instruments your writing for AND adapt to the very unnatural hand writing recognition in staffpad then you might like it. But I’m not sure this app is “newbie” friendly.
MIDI import first.
No. StaffPad can import MIDI files into a fresh score. It assigns parts to the midi tracks and uses flutes if the MIDI does not contain instrument names and instruments if it does.
After a MIDI import you can proceed editing the score with more notes. The resulting parts can be selected and saved into the StaffPad “clipboard”. Opening another score allows you to “paste” those notes into that second score. Using this technique you can assemble multiple MIDI imports (which are always done using the IMPORT button which opens a new score. Cut and paste and combine with a previous IMPORT, cut and paste. A bit tedious but that’s how you merge multiple MIDI fragments into a single work.
Now audio import.
You can add one or more staves of type “audio”… there are sub-types for voice, drums, etc that set you up with appropriate FX apps for the type.
The imported audio needs to match the tempo setting to align but there’s a feature called adaptive audio that can adjust the tempo to align with specific moments in the audio. There’s a video to demonstrate this feature more fully.
It’s only standalone. No use of IAA or AUv3 features. So, the only way to get external apps audio into StaffPad is to make a recording and import the audio into StaffPad and line up the tempo. Noticing the BPM of the synth recording and adding it to the audio file name is a good idea so you can set the BPM/tempo to match. After import you can set adaptive audio and change the StaffPad BPM/tempo and StaffPad time stretches the audio to fit faster or slower tempos. It maintains very good audio quality. The fact that you can also set up tempo variation to fit prerecorded audio makes this the best feature for composing to video or existing audio input. I wish more ISO DAW’s had similar time stretching without pitch adjusting… Koala also works similar wonders but without the visual targets to make the tempo adjust as needed.
They only trained the audio-to-Notes feature to detect audio from a real piano: like you have the iPad sitting on the piano and turn on the iPad mic. There’s no audio file to note conversion.
There is external MIDI keyboard (or MIDI app) to Notation but you have to play to StaffPad’ metronome. There’s no Ableton Link to align clocks. Pray that gets updated which will probably be a yearly event around 10/24. Just based on the last 2 years.
Slowing down the StaffPad tempo and using a load metronome can help making MIDI keyboard import better but there’s no “step sequencer” input… just live playing. They made this app for composers that play the piano.
There have been periodic sales of the external Libraries. The most recent update added the 7 MuseScore libraries to the product for free so you won’t need any extra libraries to make complete scores that sound really good. StaffPad user have their favorite libraries and over time you will probably buy a few. The VOXOS Choir for example is great but MuseScore does have some voices to write “ooh and aah” choir parts.
Most of the libraries are $99 with a 33% discount when they have a sale. The Cinesamples folks do a %50 discount so I started with their stuff and ended up with them all on sale. Then I started collecting Berlin Orchestra and when the next big sale hit I cleaned up and only have a few wholes left. So, I ended up spend hundreds…
I’m sure you will have more questions. You can get more input at:
https://vi-control.net/community/forums/staffpad-other-pen-entry-notation-devices.184/
or by joining the “StaffPad App Users” group on Facebook.
@McD Thank you for the detailed reply. Looks like the note entry by playing option won't help me, since I'm not a practiced player, but the rest looks OK. I did watch the tempo alignment video. It looks a bit fiddly but not insurmountable. I guess in the end, I'd have to consider it an alternate way of doing things, compared to building with AUV3 Effects/Instruments in a traditional DAW like Cubasis.
I was hoping there might have been a bit more cross-pollination between the two options, but apart from preparing MIDI externally, looks like you are limited to StaffPad instruments & effects, at least from a dynamic perspective, with just the batch I/O pipeline to share data between the two methodologies. That's not a show stopper for me, just complicates things a bit. I realise I'm looking to fit a square peg into a round hole a bit, so not a negative against StaffPad as such. Just a shame I can't for example just get either GeoSWAM or StaffPad instruments and use on both sides of the equation, as the initial outlay is where my current decision point lies. I would still need separate instruments for each workflow.
Thanks again for the response. You're obviously achieving great things with StaffPad, and producing results that are along the line of what I'd like to do. The question is whether I have the skills and motivation to get to that level before deciding to give up in frustration. That's my cross to bear, but you've given food for thought in deciding.
Well, looks like this was the reality check I needed. That forum and Facebook group seem to have a significant number of posts about shortcomings and issues with StaffPad - consistent problems from multiple users, not just one offs.
For someone at my level, it seems it might be biting off more than I can chew at this stage. If a sale pops up, I might jump in, but seems for now I should just stick with what I currently know. I guess I stick with the standard iOS sounds available and then one day if I actually produce something good, then look into options to upgrade. Funny enough, I saw one thread where people are trying to get scores out of StaffPad, and into desktop apps to produce better quality sounds. So I guess there’ll always be a bigger fish.
Yes. That forum has only a few types of threads:
complaints about bugs or things that don;’t work the way the user wants
request to get information about the next update… and StaffPad never leaks
There aren’t any desktop apps that sound better for orchestral style rendering than staffpad for anywhere close to its price.
This guy used to hang out here and share work when he was composing in Nanostudio 2. After StaffPad he stopped hanging out here altogether:
Oh I wasn’t saying StaffPad can’t produce some amazing results. I just thought it was funny that the reason I started looking at StaffPad was the reason he was looking for something better than StaffPad. Heck, to my ears, the inbuilt patches in most of the iPad synths sound good, but they are easily recognisable as Synth sounds, and just wanted to create music that was less “electronic” in nature.
If StaffPad goes in sale, it’ll be an instant buy for me. If you could use it’s sounds with other apps, it’d also be an instant buy at full price. As mentioned, even without the sounds, I believe just writing out music notation will help with my musical education. Sure I can do that in several free apps already anyway, but that’s all they do. I prefer learning a big app with lots of options once, rather than ten little apps separately.
I just have to decide now whether forgoing the GeoSWAM/Naada instrument sales and picking up StaffPad is the best investment, and without having a try-before-you-buy option on StaffPad, I believe I’m not ready to take the risk. Still, I will continue researching StaffPad. Maybe I’ll come across something to change my mind.
Hi! Long-time lurker here. I can only speak for myself, but I legitimately feel that buying StaffPad was a life-changing event for me.
I'd always had an ambition to write more orchestral/soundtrack stuff but could never get past my own techical limitations ( I played some brass and percussion in high school and college but am not in any way an accomplished musician.)
For whatever reason, it just clicked for me. I can get around some of the quirks in its handwriting recognition by using lots of cut and paste. One of the things that helps me a lot is the fact that, once you get a note entered on the staff, you can drag it up and down to hear each pitch in real-time. I do most of this stuff by ear and being able to hear each pitch works so much better than something like a piano-roll (my brain has never clicked with piano-roll style note entry).
I've now written literally hundreds of pieces over the last 3 years, and I am constantly amazed that I wrote it. The sound libraries are expensive for ios but are much, much cheaper than similar sounds on desktop. And I like the way StafPad sounds better than I've heard from desktop.
I'd say if you have a passion for writing music (or the potential to do so), it could become something special for you too. It's expensive initially, but by being patient I've gotten most of the libraries available and to me it's the most important app I've ever had. Yes, it can be glitchy occasionally, but I've not had any of the issues those on the Facebook group have had.
I know everyone's experience is unique, just wanted to share mine.
Thanks, I do appreciate the feedback. I know the problem with the internet is that we only hear about hinges when they go wrong. It’s easier to complain than to complement, which is really a sad statement on the human condition, but that seems to be how it is.
I guess your first statement I quoted above is the question I have to answer for myself. Do I have the potential to be passionate about music, or will I just be a dabbler. I haven’t explored enough so far to know the answer to that, but when I start anything new it’s always all-or-nothing. I have the luxury to be able to do that, one hobby at a time, which many people don’t, but I’d rather not do it with buyers remorse afterwards.
Thanks again for your valued input.
It would be great if you could share some of your creations here. @jankun has shared a few of his wonderful scores but that’s pretty much it other than me since @ScottVanZandt stopped sharing here.
I’m still coming to terms with @Paulieworld ’s admission … ‘ Ironically, I manufacture Pokémon products’ 😵💫
Didn’t see it mentioned but you can record midi output from apps like AUM directly into Staffpad with its real-time midi recording capability.
@McD answered to all the OP questions but I am sharing a few tracks made with Staffpad here. If I remember well, these are creations made exclusively inside Staffpad. I also like to incorporate staffpad beautiful libraries in more conventional songs. In this case I usually build the track in a DAW (logic pro 4 iPad in my case) and then export a mix down inside staffpad. There I build the arrangement then export the orchestral audio stems back in the DAW for more control during the final mix.
Staffpad has been a revelation for me in terms of composition and arrangement. There is no equivalent on iOS for orchestral work, period. You can find nice sounding patches in other apps. SWAM are also very interesting and useful. But Staffpad is a one stop beast for your orchestral needs. It is indeed costly, but the results are worth both financial and time investments.
Listen to In Frantic Waves (McD & JanKun collaboration) by JanKun on #SoundCloud
I uploaded a few tracks to SoundCloud. This is my first time using it so hopefully I don't screw it up
@JanKun those pieces are fantastic!
I used this once… there’s no clock sync. You can only use a single midi channel per recording.
So, I prefer recording multi-channel inside AUM with Atom 2 and exporting a file that gets imported to create a multipart score in StaffPad.
What most StaffPad users want is more variety in the libraries… like world instruments, big band articulations, better guitars… but having the ability to integrate audio is a nice work around.
You got the embed link on your first try!
Your orchestrations are excellent… reminding me of John Williams film scores.
There’s a nice mix of emotional vibes across these three.
I’m curious about your workflow. I’ve gotten very lazy with using a small amount of MIDI to make something much larger.
I have also improvised 3-4 parts and distributed those parts across strings, then added brass or woodwinds or both.
I improvised a project entirely in Cubasis and generated a second version using exported MIDI to StaffPad and created a hybrid in Cubasis mixing the audio stems from StaffPad with synths. The possibilities really are endless.
Do you start with a chord progress in mind? Staffpad can take an improvised score and generate a chord chart… I use that when I’m layering improvised parts like playing a solo over a chord chart. You can move this chord part right above the part you are recording. It won’t make a chart from audio… just the note meta-data. But that’s another feature most IOS DAW’s leave out.
Lately I have pushed my StaffPad audio projects through Logic Pro’s Mastering Assustant. Staffpad has a Mastering feature that makes better mixes than the prior releases IMHO but Logic Pro’s feature always improves my results IMHO.
@Paulworld shared some music he made on a Korg O1W Digital Workstation and it sounded like Studio Musician playing scripted fusion jazz. So, he’s probably referring to poking notes into a piano roll.
He’s a master at apps that generate audio like the Session Band products to make faster solos and grooves that he integrates into more complex collages of audio and MIDI. You can do that in StaffPad but timing and copy paste of small audio segments is pretty buggy. I used a 16 bar drum loop in StaffPad and by bar 16 the clocks drifted. I tried using a slightly slower BPM in Staffpad and it was a bit better but clock sync in other DAW’s is better.
Logic Pro on desktop lets you nudge audio in 10 millisecond increments to really tighten up a groove. That feature is NOT in the iPad product and its drummers play way back on the beat. I didn’t find a good solution but starting with drums before laying down bass and keyboards might have saved a project from the trash pile.
@jankun Thanks for weighing in on the value of this $90 plus Apple Pen purchase to be able to add strings to a song or create truly awesome film music like your Metropolis contribution or your Halloween track.
Your collaboration with @Linearlineman was truly epic and is one of my favorite improv’s of his which is probably why you added more instruments to it… it’s almost a piano concerto now in scope and drama.
Thanks for the kind words!
I basically start a new piece more haphazardly. Often, I'll just start with a quarter note on the staff, then start playing around with notes and timing.
I usually start with a simple string section or a simple piano, and just start playing with rhythms and notes until I get something that seems promising. I find that once I get a melody or line that I like, I go from there and branch out with other instruments. I think I enjoy the arrangement process the most, once I get a germ I want to work with.
Occasionally I'll use Piano Motifs to get a progression I like, then build out from that, though it's been awhile since I used it. I'd say 99% of the time I start things in StaffPad itself.
I did try using Mastering Assistant, and at first I was excited by the output, but I found that I lost the dynamics I had intended for the piece to have. It leveled things out too much for my tastes though I'm probably not using it to the best of its abilities. I used to try and spice up the sound in Cuba's, but I needed up doing more harm than good. I do like the new mastering slider in Staffed though.
For my tastes, if I have to do anything to a piece in post, a simple bump up of the high end does the trick (I usually use Pro Q in Cubasis for that. But I also don't love the low-end, Zimmer style of production that a lot of soundtracks use these days. It sounds murky to me.
That’s good to hear, as I have considered how viable synth/classical projects would be, so sounds like there are some options to give this a try.
@JanKun @jachbla great tracks. Hearing what can be done does inspire me to try harder.
They also have the Scoring Synth library available. It sounds pretty good I think. I've used it a few times on pieces
Yes. I’ve mostly used the plucked bass to give bass parts from real definition.
The Guitar pack costing $10 has a Ukelele that sounds like a real crisp Harp and a “charango” that emulates a loud hammered duclimer. I can get inspiration from many purchases like the CinePerc pack that has a “water drum” that’s very creepy to break out of pitched instruments into some moaning metal banshees.
Oh, any chance there’s a Banjo in there as well?
I love “The Duel” from the Electric Dreams soundtrack, a great Cello/Synth combo, and wanted to use it for inspiration, and while you couldn’t really use a Banjo as a replacement for the Cello in this piece, it got me to thinking about using a Banjo as a contrasting sound with more classical instruments.
You guys should really stop giving me ideas, it’s not helping with the temptation to buy
Not by name but what’s there may remind you of a banjo… the mandolin and the charango have banjo like sounds.
The Ukulele sounds just like a harp to me.
Here’s a sound demo I made:
And this one which can help show which articulations actually have a sample to provide that sound:
Thank you for the samples. Seems I’m not the only one who has queried this before
You’re right, that doesn’t exactly sound like a Ukelele. I had read somewhere else though about StaffPad instruments lacking attack. I can’t remember what the thread was about where I read that, maybe in relation to an electric guitar? Your combo of the Mandolin and Ukelele together gave me the closest Banjo feel in your sample.
I hadn’t heard of a Charango before. It seems to have a Banjo-like attack, but the tone is more bell-like. Interesting read on the Charango on Wikipedia. Seems there’s a big range of types just within this instrument classification alone, so who’s to say what really sounds like any given instrument anyway, when even a single instrument has so many variations within itself.
I can't imagine manufacturing Pokémon products any other way than ironically. 😉
LOL. I was Laughing Out Loud at that. My wife asked 'what's so funny?'. She laughed, too. So did a few of the guys at work. Good one!