StaffPad vs Dorico vs Notion Mobile

SixByNine

Hi all. I have a very specific question. Ignoring cost, I need a comparison for use on iPad only.

Dorico 5.1 (new Iconica Sketch libraries) vs StaffPad 1.6.4 vs Notion Mobile 3.2.4 (including standard add-on library bundle). Pro’s and Con’s, rating :-

1. Ease of use (is Dorito’s lack of hand-writing recognition a big handicap?
2. Quality of instruments (stock libraries mainly, then add-ons optional, and Doric’s AUV3 value proposition)

I have until the 8th to decide if the new Dorico update brings it to the level of StaffPad instruments, and whether the Notion instruments leave it anywhere in the same ballpark, give it’s half the price of the other two.

Thanks.

jachbla

I have Dorico and I installed the Iconica Sketch libraries but I haven't used them. I mostly bought Dorico last year for its engraving features. I still have hopes that some day some of my stuff could be played by real musicians. It's much better at rendering scores.

Assuming its of the same quality as the new Halion Sonic Selection sounds in Cubasis, I still think StaffPad sounds better, with more variety. The Halion sounds are really good, but I haven't heard anything there that's comparable to a good StaffPad library like Berlin Strings, for example. At least for orchestral-type sounds. The few times I tried to create solely in Dorico I found the process of entering notes to be tedious.

There's no way to add additional sound libraries that I know of to Dorico, but you have access to AUV3 so that might be something to consider. I suppose it boils down to what kind of music you want to make.

I tried Notion awhile ago, but for my specific needs I like StaffPad the best. SP is very fast once you get a groove going on, and it sounds spectacular. It's hard to go sideways to

I hope my constant cheerleading on behalf of StaffPad hasn't grown tiresome yet!

SixByNine

@jachbla said:
I have Dorico and I installed the Iconica Sketch libraries but I haven't used them. I mostly bought Dorico last year for its engraving features. I still have hopes that some day some of my stuff could be played by real musicians. It's much better at rendering scores.

I’m not looking for anyone reading the final score, so that factor is not a consideration for me.

Assuming its of the same quality as the new Halion Sonic Selection sounds in Cubasis, I still think StaffPad sounds better, with more variety. The Halion sounds are really good, but I haven't heard anything there that's comparable to a good StaffPad library like Berlin Strings, for example. At least for orchestral-type sounds. The few times I tried to create solely in Dorico I found the process of entering notes to be tedious.

Sound quality is important to me, but the 3rd party libraries for StaffPad are a significant cost, so that detracts a bit. I can imagine my poor old ears probably can’t tell much difference though.

Seems Dorico is designed for keyboard input - both computer & midi, which is a limitation in where I could compose but I’m not certain it’s a speed problem. I think it probably could be faster than handwriting, at least for straight note entry. It’d be interesting to see a score-off of two people versed in each program, to see how quickly they could create.

The additional UI tools in Dorico also seem very attractive. Piano roll & soft keyboard, or guitar strings, and additional DAW-like controls for adjusting notes & articulations.

There's no way to add additional sound libraries that I know of to Dorico, but you have access to AUV3 so that might be something to consider. I suppose it boils down to what kind of music you want to make.

The AUV3 access is the killer additional feature which really is tempting me. One of my original goals when I went down this path was around creating a fusion of traditional instruments and modern synth-like sounds. StaffPad requires round-tripping in and out of a DAW using audio files to achieve this - doable but tedious. Being able to access the instruments directly in Dorico would seem to be a big productivity increase, although maybe still with some limitation if I wanted to use external effects to process the audio.

I tried Notion awhile ago, but for my specific needs I like StaffPad the best. SP is very fast once you get a groove going on, and it sounds spectacular. It's hard to go sideways to

My gut feeling from everything I’ve read tells me Notion is likely worth its cost, but us a compromise in all areas to get there, so I think it’s probably my 3rd choice of these three.

I hope my constant cheerleading on behalf of StaffPad hasn't grown tiresome yet!

Not at all. I love everything I’ve seen about StaffPad, and it seems very good at what it’s targeted to do, but it does have a couple of limitations. I’m just thinking, with the current sale, Dorico is a better value proposition, feature for feature. It provides more flexibility but maybe with a slight quality compromise, and perhaps losing the convenience if sitting down and writing a score, anytime and anywhere.

However, all the reviews I’ve read about StaffPads handwriting recognition leave me with mixed feelings, as it seems opinions are quite polar. People either love it or hate it, and without the ability to trial it, I won’t know which side of the fence I’ll fall on until it’s too late. The short time I spent with handwriting data entry in Notion, I didn’t enjoy, but it seems a half-hearted attempt, requiring toolbars as well, which StaffPad avoids a fair bit.

As usually happens with these types of comparisons, no app is perfect. I wonder if there is a case to be made for owning both - StaffPad for creative conceptualisation with pen from the lounge chair, then at a desk raw data entry and tweaking with Dorico. Mastering either in StaffPad for orchestral sound purity, or Dorico for modern music fusions where individual instrument quality is less of a concern?

Kewe_Esse

Staffpad’s handwriting recognition… hmm. Mostly good, I find, for notes. Add an accidental sharp, no problem. Add a flat, sure. Write in a natural… not without a struggle.

Writing in dynamics like mf or mp seems to confuse it a bit. Perhaps if I used it more, it would get more used to my terrible scrawl.

The above sounds a bit whiney. I can always eventually get what I want on the page. The experience of writing music like that is even pleasurable. Dragging copy-pasted note heads into harmonic positions is very gratifying when you hit play and it’s easy to change things if you want.

The free libraries for SP are very, very good. Excellent, even. You won’t confuse them for a live instrument but they’re as good as you’ll get. I don’t own most of the third-party libraries, as no need. I generally export stems from SP dry into AUM or similar for FX addition. Hard to get bluesy, jazz or soul type intonations from the instruments, if that’s your thing. The output tends towards the moody/cinematic side ‘as is’.

Notion, meh. I tried and it just doesn’t flow for me. Too menu-divey.

Dorico… not tried. Probably won’t, much expense and already happy with SP.

cvwonder

I have Dorico for desktop and ipad and I love it.

SixByNine

@Kewe_Esse said:
Writing in dynamics like mf or mp seems to confuse it a bit. Perhaps if I used it more, it would get more used to my terrible scrawl.

Heh, yeah just about every video I’ve watched has had issues with mp.
for FX addition. Hard to get bluesy, jazz or soul type intonations from the instruments, if that’s your thing. The output tends towards the moody/cinematic side ‘as is’.

Cinematic is generally what I’m looking for, but the lack of fast attack instruments is a bit limiting. I suspect that’s an issue with all the notation apps though.

Dorico… not tried. Probably won’t, much expense and already happy with SP.

Thanks for the feedback.

SixByNine

@cvwonder said:
I have Dorico for desktop and ipad and I love it.

How do you find the iPad editing? I assume you use a computer keyboard, since you also have the desktop version?

belldu

It seems that collectively we all have Staffpad, Dorico, or Notion Mobile. So, I propose a three way duel.
I'd really like to hear the difference:

Notion comes with a bunch of demos including a Mozart Clarinet Concerto which I've exported as musicxml.
Assuming Dorico and Staffpad can import MusicXML then lets see how the sound compares with no mixing.

Any Dorico or Staffpad folks up for the challenge?

Here's the musicxml file exported from Notion Mobile along with the audio.

SixByNine

@belldu said:
It seems that collectively we all have Staffpad, Dorico, or Notion Mobile. So, I propose a three way duel.
I'd really like to hear the difference:

That’d be great to hear.

To throw another spanner in the works, I just found out I can currently get the Windows version of Dorico Elements for $111.75 vs the iPad version for $150! I guess the iPad is a lifetime license versus the version license for desktop, but still, maybe just getting the windows version is a better deal - it comes with a lot more sounds, and then just use StaffPad for iOS (but wouldn’t give me the AUV3 access in iPad)? I wonder how much rework there is if transferring back and forth with the MusicXML formats?

jachbla

Here's the piece rendered in StaffPad: The first is using the Berlin libraries (strings, woodwinds and brass), the second is using the MuseScore libraries. There's an unfortunate sounding glitch in the Musescore version...just a heads up.

I tried the file in Dorico but it didn't sound right. I thought the new Iconica Sketch library was used by default after changing the settings, but it sounded strange. Very possibly user error. Will investigate further!

belldu

What a fun experiment this is.
I used A/B audio to do a realtime comparison.

Both MuseScore and Berlin are more bassy, but that's something that can be adjusted with eq.

The notion people clearly had some asthmatic brass players as both Musescore and Berlin were far more powerful (not necessarily a good thing).

The approach to trills varied. Notion didn't bother at all, Musescore tried but wasn't at all smooth with volume changes, and Berlin did best.

Notion strings were a disappointment compared to both Musescore and Berlin, sounding a bit midified and less expressive.

Interested to hear other perspectives and Dorico too...

SixByNine

Thanks guys for taking the time to prepare these samples.

I wasn’t sure how to do the side by side comparison. I just chucked all three into AUM and toggled between them. I did notice the notion one was less brassy than the other two, and Muse had more punch on the big sounds, but apart from that, the differences seemed very marginal to me. Perhaps that’s just my untrained ear, but I’m not trying to create pieces to get marked on, just for people to enjoy.

So is there too much navel gazing on what makes good quality sounds? Obviously there are some definite differences, but listening to a piece in isolation, does it matter? I have seen YouTube comment “experts” critiquing all manner of app review videos, saying how bad the sounds are, when to me they generally sound mostly fine.

Still keen to hear the Doricho results with the Iconia library, if anyone is able to get a sample up.

SixByNine

@cvwonder said:
I have Dorico for desktop and ipad and I love it.

With no further information, and my many searches on YouTube, I’m almost at the conclusion (and almost out of time for the Dorico discount) that I’m simply goi g to have to end up buying both StaffPad and Dorico and decide for myself if either ends up being my tool of choice, or whether they can actually be used in partnership to get the best of both worlds.

Question for @cvwonder since you have both desktop and iPad. Do you see value in having it in both platforms? Do you use one more than the other? Problem with desktop will be the cost rabbit-hole of desktop music then - companion software such as note-performer, and then the high cost of desktop libraries to extend the capabilities.

mojozart

I just noticed that Sibelius (Avid) is on iPad:

https://apps.apple.com/app/sibelius/id1503221259

When did that happen?

I'm pulling for Dorico, mostly because Tantacrul's videos are so awesome.

But what I really want is something from Finale (MakeMusic) that runs on iPad.

By the way, Symphony Pro (Xenon) is also on iPad but hasn't been updated in a couple years.

SixByNine

@mojozart said:
I just noticed that Sibelius (Avid) is on iPad:

I did know about Sibelius, but thanks. I purposely hadn’t listed it, as it is subscription only. I’m not interested in subscriptions regardless of whether they are more economical than an outright purchase or not.

I also haven’t looked at Symphony Pro since it seems to be abondonware, and Apple doesn’t care about deprecating old apps with iOS updates.

Sumarongi

I use all three of these programs and they are all far from perfect.

Dorico on desktop with Noteperfomer w/ Ikonica Sketch or other library is by far the best note input and best sounding playback out of the box

Dorico on iPad is mostly useless because not only lack of handwriting but lack of pen input all together. They really are stuck on keyboard input, which just sucks for a mobile solution. Why Dorico why?

I used Staffpad on a a Surface and I have to say it was fun to mess around with. It sounds good and the handwriting is probably the best of all the programs , but again they want you to conform to to the slash style writing, and you can’t convert whole notes to half of half to quarter with the handwriting but you erase and start over. Super frustrating. And also staffpad sucks for layout. It’s real hard to compose full pieces, esp piano, since you are stuck in a scrolling view. So staffpad is probably the best for doing sketching

Notion is neither good or bad. On desktop I like Dorico more, but on Mobile I like Notion, but lack of external sounds is eternally frustrating. Like why not add this feature. Also the handwriting is half assed; again you can’t fill or add a stem to whole or half notes to convert them to the lower value. How hard is it to design handwriting input that is natural and recognizable to real handwriting? These devices have been out for a decade now.

So all of them suck in one way or the other, but Dorico w/noteperfore on desktop is a must have IMO. Staffpad on mobile is a good sketch tool

broppie

@Sumarongi said:
you can’t convert whole notes to half of half to quarter with the handwriting but you erase and start over.

You can. Select a note and drag to left to shorten or to the right to lengthen.

michael_m

@broppie said:

@Sumarongi said:
you can’t convert whole notes to half of half to quarter with the handwriting but you erase and start over.

You can. Select a note and drag to left to shorten or to the right to lengthen.

I was just going to say the same thing. You can also convert to dotted notes this way.