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Honest feedback make us better
Hi all, I have noticed a trend online regarding music making that grind my gears a bit. This is neither the only or worst place, but also where we might be able to discuss it with some civility.
I see that online "clout" like a high post count, general visibility, registration date and upvotes result in that persons creations getting nothing but praise. I would go so far as to call it toxic positivity, compared to eg. constructive criticism.
When people mostly offer vague adoration like " I love this, beautful, wonderful, cool" and so on, is it really worth the time, space or even server emissions? I get that it is a boost for the person putting music out, but just being more precise in the praise like mentioning your favourite part, sound design choice or really anything specific is more useful than "GOOD!", which seem a bit infantilizing sometimes.
Maybe even critical comments, as long as they are constructive and thoughtful, are even more beneficial and interesting for all parts, especially the artist.
Comments which gives the impression of a new Aphex Twin or Eno or what have you builds hype. That most often, in my limited experience, sinks like the play counts towards the end of these releases with more than a couple of tracks.
People deserve civil honesty for their creations, if not it's quick to just redo mistakes and focus on learning the wrong things going forth. I would guess people mostly post their creations here instead of just on Bandcamp or streaming to get real feedback from people using the same-ish gear.
Or am I totally out of line, what do you think?
😬
Comments
There is a monthly thread where people are encouraged to do precisely that: offer honest and constructive feedback. Anyone is welcome to contribute:
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/59097/song-of-the-month-club-january-2024/
You make a fair point @tekk, constructive criticism is perhaps more helpful than non specific faint praise but, on the other hand, online forums and written criticism in general can very easily be unintentionally hurtful as people imagine a tone of voice and agenda attached to those criticisms.
If someone posts asking for feedback, honest constructive feedback is called for.
IMO, if someone doesn't ask for constructive criticism, it's probably best not to comment. While people shouldn't say that they like something if they don't, it also isn't beneficial/kind to offer advice if it isn't asked for. When you introduce someone to your kid, you don't really want a critique of your child.
Very well put @espiegel123.
@espiegel123 +1
Whenever I comment on a creation I do try to point out what I specifically liked about it. I have tried giving constructive feedback when it was asked for and always try to point out that any criticism I might have is purely my opinion.
Sometimes I spend several minutes writing and rewriting a comment (this one has taken a surprisingly long time) just to try to find the right words and still worry that I could have said something better. I would hate to ruin someone's joy with a few careless words.
As someone who posts creations myself, I'm happy for whatever comments or criticism comes. I like my external validation but if someone has advice on how to improve I'll gladly listen.
I do find it funny that when it comes to apps there's no shortage of people who have no problem giving negative feedback. I imagine this place would be a lot less civil if people commented on other people's music the way they talk to developers about their apps.
That's so zeitgeisty, being offended by words on forums. I think even those hurt people would learn more and move on pretty quick.
To specifically ask for constructive criticism on a website for amateur about creators, isn't that a bit... weird? That's a first for me, in any creative circle it's been implicit - but of course one tries to not be directly negative or condescending with it.
If posting of tracks here is purely for promotion it seems like a futile strategy, being a pretty small club. Posters could just drop all their releases into one personal thread, where their online friends can easily find them and give praise no matter the quality or effort. It would even declutter the forum pretty hard.
Hadn't seen that. I thought it would be the other way around, like I said, that constructive criticism aka. helping out would be the norm. More interesting to read for others also compared to the same bland praise.
@tekk wrote:
Not in the least.
Maybe it’s a matter of sharing your work with your pals or playing the open mic at the pub where you hang out.
Constructive criticism is NOT telling someone that you don't like their work...it might be true that you don't like it, but just telling someone that you don't like something is not constructive. If the main feature of the "critique" is saying negative things that's just being mean. Constructive criticism is being helpful and providing insight.
I'd go so far as to say that the less you like something, the harder it is to offer something constructive.
I’m aligned with your philosophy, you explained everything well without involving much conventional thinking, or, I dare to say, indoctrination.
Why would anyone comment on something that he doesn’t like? Just imagine walking on the streets full of people and you commenting on every single one about what you don’t like: Hey sir, your voice is too thin. Hey lady, you are wearing the wrong coat! You there, your walk is crooked!
We probably have a name for this, and it is not called feedback, for sure.
Imho, to give someone “constructive” feedback is harder than to compose. Because it’s so easy to change the character of a song even with a simple gain change on certain tracks or instruments, and no one can even imagine what will happen if you try to change a rhythm and composition.
Giving feedback on your honest experience while listening to only the work that you like is the most safe way. Every author will accept that, even if you praise a song that he doesn’t like. And you can’t hide a lie, not from the author.
Hardly ‘zeitgeisty’ and how tedious of you to suggest it is - i deliberately said ‘written criticism in general’ which has been unintentionally hurtful to creators for centuries. And I also didn’t say ‘offended’, i said unintentionally hurtful which is different.
Indeed, it’s almost as if you’ve imagined, after reading my comment, who i am, what my tone of voice is and what world view lies behind my comment - exactly as i suggested was easy to happen with written comments made by people you don’t personally know.
The problem with constructive criticism is you have to know who’s giving it and whether you respect their opinion on the subject. Criticism is so often just someone wanting to show off about how much more they think they know about a subject than everyone else - it’s rarely genuinely constructive.
Accidental post.
Maybe sometimes... but more frequently people are simply convinced about whatever they (recently) experienced is a matter of fact and just spread that „truth“ with no personal intent.
Maybe, i don’t know. It’s a curious thing, there is a desire to tell others when you don’t like something subjective and be a critic, and I’m as guilty of that as anyone, but I’m not sure it ever really achieves anything other than satisfying that desire within yourself to feel that your opinion matters.
As @MadeofWax said, if I comment on someone's music here, I do try to include the pieces or the sounds that I particularly liked, and why.
If there is anything I didn't like about it, I tend not to comment, partly because a lot of this is subjective and down to personal preferences, and also because I generally don't have a solution to offer to fix anything because I am definitely not a qualified or top ranking expert!
If I was an established and proven professional in the music industry, I may be more inclined to stick my neck out and point out any flaws or things that could be improved, and I would have the technical or design solutions in mind to offer as advice.
In general I typically don't comment on anything wrong unless I have a viable solution ready to address it with confidence.
of course one‘s opinion „matters“ if he/she passes on information supposed to help improving a track.
(because that person experienced it and expects similar results on the track in question)
May as well be plain assistance, as a „hey, look what a smart ass I am“.
No one knows for sure by reading the comment, but I wouldn‘t suggest the latter automatically applies to the majority of cases.
Yes, and that’s what i originally said: when dealing with the written word, the reader makes assumptions on the intent and motives behind what is being said by the person doing the criticising - you may be a positive person who assumes the criticism is meant as purely assistive; another person might take those same comments in a different way. It’s difficult to know that someone will take your criticism in the spirit with which you feel it has been offered when you’re using written comments and don’t know them personally.
As far as i can see, the only helpful criticisms are technical ones. And, as @Spidericemidas i think suggests, you’ve got to be damn sure you know what you’re talking before you start offering up unasked for technical advice.
I never meant to suggest that criticism should be off limits at all, just tried to suggest that criticism should be very carefully worded if the author intends it to be genuinely helpful to the recipient and not run the risk of it being unnecessarily hurtful. I feel my posts have maybe been misinterpreted by some, rather proving the point - it’s difficult to know how your comments will be received by others.
Yeah, I just mean feedback could be better. English not first language. Like that's a bit low, more of that, maybe less of those frequencies and so on. That's what I would expect, not a critique in like in the written genre, but just something more specific than cool, good, great, etc. Agree wholehartedly on not commenting on genres one actively dislikes, does anyone even do that?
All music has an audience. Unfortunately for so many, that audience may not include
So a safe forum to post work and get positive feedback in general is a public good.
I try and build trust with creators and only make positive comments. I do this over time and I can see
how some might find it fawning over some work that needs re-work. The next Eno is getting positives without
needing to post here but there are truly gifted artists that serve a small but sophisticated audience that they might
only find here.
Being a negative focused critic is actually pretty easy… something could be better… the mix, the words, the choice of
synths, the reverb, the tempo. but there’s a human behind the work that could use encouragement to keep at it and know there is an audience. If it’s not you… just try another creation until you can give someone a boost.
Now, if someone asks “how can I do better”… do your thing. I will still offer positives and one critical comment which implies “do it again but better this time”. Do not be surprised when they don’t.
you can see how some prolific commenters tend to get positive feedback when they share… that’s called karma and it’s
a simple way to build an audience overtime. Be a good person and you will be rewarded.
There are plenty of artists you can critique as well that post on streaming services… but they will never see your “advice”.
I think we just, basically, want our existences acknowledged.
Or as Rainer Maria Rilke famously put it:
“Works of art are of an infinite solitude, and no means of approach is so useless as criticism. Only love can touch and hold them and be fair to them.
Nothing touches a work of art so little as words of criticism: they always result in more or less fortunate misunderstandings.
Most experiences are unsayable, they happen in a space that no word has ever entered, and more unsayable than all other things are works of art, those mysterious existences, whose life endures beside our own small, transitory life”
Honesty is good, as long as the person speaking it knows that it’s going to have a positive effect rather than a negative one.
‘Honesty’ (particularly when it’s prefixed with “I don’t mean to be offensive/rude/mean/etc., but…”) can sometimes be extremely hurtful and have very poor outcomes.
As a couples counselor once said to decades ago , “before you offer advice, take a moment to find out if advice is wanted. Sometimes people share to make a connection, to feel connected—when that’s the case advice can break the connection. Even if the advice is great and well-intended that might not be what is called for.”
I’ve come to find that this applies to a lot of situations in life and not just when your partner tells you about the crappy day they had.
Having empathy doesn’t mean we should falsely praise something…but it sometimes means that we should choose not to say something.
To be frank, I have recently seen on AB forum what might have been intended as constructive criticism that came across as just telling someone that they didn’t like the posted music and that the person that posted it had used wrong words to describe it.
On the other hand (from what I wrote earlier) I don't think anyone would mind if you wish to post good faith critiques of the forum creations. It's better than being ignored. Go for it!
I think that's a common feature in all primate groupings.