UA volt and motu m2 (EDIT: it works with better power) phantom power via usb bus power iPad Pro

JoyceRoadStudios

@espiegel123 said:

@JoyceRoadStudios said:

@wingwizard said:

@espiegel123 said:
Dynamics are great for some things and not for others. Want to get a highly detailed accurate recording of acoustic guitar or violin or string quartet, etc etc. a high-quality large diaphragm condenser is going to yield better results than dynamic mics.

This is my experience as well as what I’ve heard. But… having read Joyce’s post I’m a bit curious.

I do think as a general caveat that sometimes random mics can just coincidentally work ith the character of someone’s vocal or the song sound, The quality they produce still won’t be great technically but there have been loads of times I’ve preferred an iPad mic vocal to a Properly miced one, or even a clip on mic or something

@JoyceRoadStudios said:
Motu loopback feature doesn’t work on iOS and Motu has no plans to fix that. Doesn’t matter to me since I don’t use that feature, could be a deal breaker to others. But if the Motu couldn’t phantom bus power on iOS I would return it, even if I rarely use condenser mics. Anyway, it does work.

The biggest factor to me with dynamic vs condenser … is your studio or recording space soundproofed and treated… since condensers pickup up everything around them including the room/space acoustic, it can be kind of pointless to use them unless you’re doing a field type recording. In a studio recording setting, a condenser will pick up every reflection, background noise, sound bleed, and will only sound as good or bad as your treated room. Directional dynamics won’t pick up any of that and work with what’s only in front of them, making them a better option for makeshift home studios. Anyway, I use a Shure SM57/58 and a Heil, and almost never pull out a condenser. If I do use a condenser it’s for overhead drums, and maybe vocals if the space is completely isolated.

The other factor is the price point. $100-$400 gets you a top of the line dynamic, and you can use them onstage without special mounts etc… that price point for condensers is entry level at best. Of course it’s common practice to say a condenser is the gold standard for pristine and detailed vocals recording. And that is true, but those condensers cost 2-5k.

This is n interesting point. I remember one occasion years ago I recorded a quick vocal single take in my room. I had recorded another vocal the day before same mic same everything. (This is just sound quality wise as vocal take main factor is how genuine the performance is by a mile imo, the right notes coming at the right times a distant second, then the equipment - modern music has that backwards, conspicuous absence of imo ). This was when I didn’t know anything about treating room where to record a vocal etc. Anyway the vocal fro, the day before sounded like it was in a toilet, I had no idea why as vocals had never sounded that bad before. Then the vocal I recorded that day was the was really really nice. Years later when I learned about acoustic treating etc I realised what I had done was…. Turn around. The poor vocal came from recording too near a hard wall. But for the other vocal, I wasn’t in a room in any way treated. I was just standing in the middle of it or facing away from the wall at least. I think I may have been in the general direction of a thin curtain.

So I’m just wondering how important treating the room is in a lot of average bedrooms as opposed to simple mic placement. Dunno if you have any thoughts? I can’t agree at all they’re only useful for a field type recording, I’ve done recording better than I’ve found possible with a dynamic just in my room, but i have also made recordings that were horrible and full of reflection just like you say. I think there’s an in between in that if you don’t get the placement right it will sound like a toilet whatever mic you’re using. I’ve come up with cheap better alternative to a sound booth too. (I mean a proper one not people getting in the cupboard which is the worst idea possible for reflections lol).

Do you have any clips recorded with an sm58 or alternative that don’t have too much in the way of effects? Sorry I’m just curious. I can see what you’re saying and it’s always interesting to hear an opposing experience (I’d love to pick up a dynamic if they are useful and change my mind).

I don’t agree with the point about money though. A rode nt1 is sub 200 and just in my experience/opinion better than n sm58 for vocals when the environment is ok. Tbh my old Yamaha mx whatever it was sounded really good too when recorded properly.

But I don’t know perhaps I’m carrying some bias from the days of having to gig and hearing them forever booming horribly at the low end end over pas on endless soundchecks.

Also I had an aluminium clitoris installed in my forehead with and a tuning tree with graphite locks in my neck and I find it really adds sparkle to the high end.

My comment was merely a generalization. The first mic I ever bought for myself was a Rode NT1 in 1999. Good mic. My point was that when recording with condensers you really have to take the acoustic properties of your space into consideration. Not nearly as much with dynamics. If your recording space is quiet and its reflections are tuned or tamed, then by all means use only condensers. My recording space currently is next to a furnace, always-on dehumidifier, 18 year old water heater, and a creaky floor above. So condensers are of little use to me in that scenario.

Your experience with two drastically different recordings is exactly my point, it was all about the difference in wall reflections and positioning in your space.

And your bias has to do with boomy PA systems rather than mics.

?????

What?

You misinterpreted something I said. I recorded in the same studio space for years with shure and audix mics before getting the AKG 414. I was speaking of the difference when I switched to the 414.

Obviously, if you want to make detailed recordings of an instrument with a non-trivial dynamic range that includes quiet passages, you need a quiet room with decent acoustics.

Dynamics like a SM57/58 are indestructible and suitable for stage, and more than good enough for studio recording. Singers like Bono and Bruce Springsteen have used them in the studio to record vocals (they’ve used Neumann condensers too). That does not in any way mean that dynamics are better than a good quality condenser. They’re not. And in many situations a condenser is the only suitable option for the job because of the coverage and level of detail they provide. But dynamics are fuss free, forgiving of your space’s acoustic, and certainly get the job done. Look at most of the podcasters out there for example, it’s almost a cliche they’re all using a Shure SM7B dynamic and a Cloudlifter…

They got the job done well for many uses but not all. For some uses, dynamics don't compare favorably.

No no I wasn’t responding to your comment but to the OP’s.

espiegel123

I see

wingwizard

@JoyceRoadStudios said:

@wingwizard said:

@espiegel123 said:
Dynamics are great for some things and not for others. Want to get a highly detailed accurate recording of acoustic guitar or violin or string quartet, etc etc. a high-quality large diaphragm condenser is going to yield better results than dynamic mics.

This is my experience as well as what I’ve heard. But… having read Joyce’s post I’m a bit curious.

I do think as a general caveat that sometimes random mics can just coincidentally work ith the character of someone’s vocal or the song sound, The quality they produce still won’t be great technically but there have been loads of times I’ve preferred an iPad mic vocal to a Properly miced one, or even a clip on mic or something

@JoyceRoadStudios said:
Motu loopback feature doesn’t work on iOS and Motu has no plans to fix that. Doesn’t matter to me since I don’t use that feature, could be a deal breaker to others. But if the Motu couldn’t phantom bus power on iOS I would return it, even if I rarely use condenser mics. Anyway, it does work.

The biggest factor to me with dynamic vs condenser … is your studio or recording space soundproofed and treated… since condensers pickup up everything around them including the room/space acoustic, it can be kind of pointless to use them unless you’re doing a field type recording. In a studio recording setting, a condenser will pick up every reflection, background noise, sound bleed, and will only sound as good or bad as your treated room. Directional dynamics won’t pick up any of that and work with what’s only in front of them, making them a better option for makeshift home studios. Anyway, I use a Shure SM57/58 and a Heil, and almost never pull out a condenser. If I do use a condenser it’s for overhead drums, and maybe vocals if the space is completely isolated.

The other factor is the price point. $100-$400 gets you a top of the line dynamic, and you can use them onstage without special mounts etc… that price point for condensers is entry level at best. Of course it’s common practice to say a condenser is the gold standard for pristine and detailed vocals recording. And that is true, but those condensers cost 2-5k.

This is n interesting point. I remember one occasion years ago I recorded a quick vocal single take in my room. I had recorded another vocal the day before same mic same everything. (This is just sound quality wise as vocal take main factor is how genuine the performance is by a mile imo, the right notes coming at the right times a distant second, then the equipment - modern music has that backwards, conspicuous absence of imo ). This was when I didn’t know anything about treating room where to record a vocal etc. Anyway the vocal fro, the day before sounded like it was in a toilet, I had no idea why as vocals had never sounded that bad before. Then the vocal I recorded that day was the was really really nice. Years later when I learned about acoustic treating etc I realised what I had done was…. Turn around. The poor vocal came from recording too near a hard wall. But for the other vocal, I wasn’t in a room in any way treated. I was just standing in the middle of it or facing away from the wall at least. I think I may have been in the general direction of a thin curtain.

So I’m just wondering how important treating the room is in a lot of average bedrooms as opposed to simple mic placement. Dunno if you have any thoughts? I can’t agree at all they’re only useful for a field type recording, I’ve done recording better than I’ve found possible with a dynamic just in my room, but i have also made recordings that were horrible and full of reflection just like you say. I think there’s an in between in that if you don’t get the placement right it will sound like a toilet whatever mic you’re using. I’ve come up with cheap better alternative to a sound booth too. (I mean a proper one not people getting in the cupboard which is the worst idea possible for reflections lol).

Do you have any clips recorded with an sm58 or alternative that don’t have too much in the way of effects? Sorry I’m just curious. I can see what you’re saying and it’s always interesting to hear an opposing experience (I’d love to pick up a dynamic if they are useful and change my mind).

I don’t agree with the point about money though. A rode nt1 is sub 200 and just in my experience/opinion better than n sm58 for vocals when the environment is ok. Tbh my old Yamaha mx whatever it was sounded really good too when recorded properly.

But I don’t know perhaps I’m carrying some bias from the days of having to gig and hearing them forever booming horribly at the low end end over pas on endless soundchecks.

Also I had an aluminium clitoris installed in my forehead with and a tuning tree with graphite locks in my neck and I find it really adds sparkle to the high end.

My comment was merely a generalization. The first mic I ever bought for myself was a Rode NT1 in 1999. Good mic. My point was that when recording with condensers you really have to take the acoustic properties of your space into consideration. Not nearly as much with dynamics. If your recording space is quiet and its reflections are tuned or tamed, then by all means use only condensers. My recording space currently is next to a furnace, always-on dehumidifier, 18 year old water heater, and a creaky floor above. So condensers are of little use to me in that scenario.

Your experience with two drastically different recordings is exactly my point, it was all about the difference in wall reflections and positioning in your space.

And your bias has to do with boomy PA systems rather than mics.

Dynamics like a SM57/58 are indestructible and suitable for stage, and more than good enough for studio recording. Singers like Bono and Bruce Springsteen have used them in the studio to record vocals (they’ve used Neumann condensers too). That does not in any way mean that dynamics are better than a good quality condenser. They’re not. And in many situations a condenser is the only suitable option for the job because of the coverage and level of detail they provide. But dynamics are fuss free, forgiving of your space’s acoustic, and certainly get the job done. Look at most of the podcasters out there for example, it’s almost a cliche they’re all using a Shure SM7B dynamic and a Cloudlifter…

Yeah, it’s a completely valid and pragmatic point. I mean, we’re talking ultimately about ‘does it sound good?’ And it’s easy to get lost in specs and videos and things and forget that what you’re talking about might be a much more significant factor - in fact it is, as is mic placement, mood, performance, mic technique.

I think I’d been in a bad headspace so wasn’t disagreeing just too much time online lol. I have since gone on a bit of mission headphone listening to a lot of mics. I think I’m gonna start another thread.

I genuinely don’t like how sm58s sound but this is just subjective. I listened to them a lot in studios and then again yesterday in comparisons. I just find them rough and unrefined and thin but I don’t know I’m sure you can eq them and also I do like the openness. By the same token I’m not overly enamoured with my nt1 for the opposite reasons. But anyway I get how an sm58 with a clean background is better than a Neumann tlm 102 where all you can here is rumbling and humming from the background.

I previously had some bias from not only the pas but just my time in a band yiu know, certain studios and situations and bad associations. I like songwriting and playing at home, I dislike gigging and music scenes, I’m just someone who needs to make new stuff. Replaying the same bloody songs in cringey studios with cringey music people made me about turn and go and study literature until that too made me cringe and throw away every scarf I owned and vow never to listen to anyone who references the guardian. Not that I’m a difficult person

@bluegroove said:

@wingwizard said:

@bluegroove said:

@wingwizard said:

@bluegroove said:

@wingwizard said:

@bygjohn said:
My M4 works fine with an Anker powered hub, both on my current iPad Pro (iPadOS 17) and on my previous iPad 6th gen base model (2018, iPadOS 16). I don’t get audio dropouts.

When you say “phantom power”, do you mean for powering microphones? If so, I’ve never tried that, as I don’t have any mics that need it. It certainly has no trouble piping audio in from instruments and mics that don’t need phantom power.

Not arguing with your experience here, just trying to figure out the root of the problem. If it’s phantom powering mics, I have no experience of that, but otherwise my M4 works fine through powered hub on both a USB-C Pro and an old Lightning ipad. So maybe it’s the hub you’re using?

Yeah for condenser mics which really are the standard for good detailed vocals/instruments.

The Shure SM58 clears its throat

Not a fan :P used them live, and 57s buttt what do I know

Right on, everyone has their favorites. As for the "standard" however, thankfully that isn't set by one opinion Depending on the situation, dynamic mics are just as standard as condenser.

Anyway, bummer your motu is working out. I've had good luck with them and my phantom power works as intended on my M2, but I've always been curious about Volts as well.

Yeah, I didn’t mean standard as in what I think is better or opinion just that if you go into a recording studio, you’d expect to see a good condensor mic for vocals etc and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that it is the standard for recording. I’m sure there are people who prefer dynamics but if a studio had one as its only vocal mic most people would walk straight back out the door.

I am also talking about the standards for studio recording, the truth is that the Shure SM57/58/7B, Sennheiser MD421/441, AKG D12/112, Electro Voice RE20, etc. are still some of the most commonly used mics in studios all over the world. These dynamic mics have been used on countless award-winning albums for decades (including MJ's vocals on the best-selling album of all time), and still are today. The same is true for condensers of course (and even moreso as you pointed out), but they both have their uses/strengths, and neither one can really be called the only standard as they are both still prominently used all the way to the highest level studios. But you are also right that it would be weird for a high-level studio to have only dynamic, but I would say the opposite is also true as well.

Sorry I didn't mean to derail the thread or argue. I'm just an audio geek and love talking about this stuff (probably too much lol...again my apologies).

Looking back, I don’t disagree. I think I should have said ‘a standard’ rather than ‘the standard’. Again too much time online haha. Yeah, i can totally see that dynamics are also commonly used. My phrasing confused the point I was making which was just that being unable to use condensors would make an audio interface basically not fit for purpose given how integral those mics are to audio recording. but i was wrong anyway as the motu works lol