Is there a difference between Ebm and D#m? - My reason for asking!

espiegel123

Addendum to my post: but to really use any scales in jazz, you need to know the vocabulary/idiom of jazz and not just the scales and chords they use. I heard Pat Metheny talk about people that know all the scales but don’t know the idiom. So, they play music that isn’t recognizable to jazz musicians as jazz—in the way someone may learn a foreign language with a perfect accent and grammar and still sound foreign because they haven’t been immersed in real language use.

So much of jazz music is like a series of musical conversations that are commentaries or critiques of ornaments on what came before.

McD

@espiegel123 said:
Addendum to my post: but to really use any scales in jazz, you need to know the vocabulary/idiom of jazz and not just the scales and chords they use. I heard Pat Metheny talk about people that know all the scales but don’t know the idiom. So, they play music that isn’t recognizable to jazz musicians as jazz—in the way someone may learn a foreign language with a perfect accent and grammar and still sound foreign because they haven’t been immersed in real language use.

So much of jazz music is like a series of musical conversations that are commentaries or critiques of ornaments on what came before.

It’s funny to me that Pat Metheny weighs in on jazz conventions because his musical voice sounds like a version of jazz that borrows from country and is very pleasant and accessible. Very much like the music of vibist Gary Burton who had guitarists that created the country jazz style… Larry Coryell, Jerry Hahn and eventually… (wait for it)… Pat Metheny.

Gary and Larry taught at Berkeley Music making more country to need jazz players across the spectrum: Bruce Hornsby comes to mind.

Gary’s music was called Fusion but he infused country while Miles Fusion added Rock players with lots of electronics innovations like delays/echo, ring modulators, and other FX hardware.> @McD said:

@espiegel123 said:
Addendum to my post: but to really use any scales in jazz, you need to know the vocabulary/idiom of jazz and not just the scales and chords they use. I heard Pat Metheny talk about people that know all the scales but don’t know the idiom. So, they play music that isn’t recognizable to jazz musicians as jazz—in the way someone may learn a foreign language with a perfect accent and grammar and still sound foreign because they haven’t been immersed in real language use.

So much of jazz music is like a series of musical conversations that are commentaries or critiques of ornaments on what came before.

It’s funny to me that Pat Metheny weighs in on jazz conventions be cause his musical voice sounds like a version of jazz that borrows from country and is very pleasant as accessible. Very much like the music of vibist Gary Burton who had guitarists that created the country jazz style… Larry Coryell, Jerry Hahn and eventually… (wait for it)… Pat Metheny.

Gary and Larry taught at Berkeley Music for decades.

Gary’s music was called Fusion but he infused country while a Miles Fusion added Rock players with lots of electronics innovations like delays/echo, ring modulators, and other FX hardware.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@espiegel123 said:

While the diminished scale does get used sometimes in jazz, I think a lot of what looks like diminished scale in jazz is use of modes of melodic minor.

I'm not understanding this line of analysis. To my ear they are entirely different scales with unique sounds. Diminished harmonies -- 13b9 chords and min9(MAJ7) chords -- are quite common in jazz going back more than a half century now.

espiegel123

@McD : why is it funny that Metheny would weigh in on jazz conventions? Most jazz musicians I know consider him a player of the highest rank...and he is also quite articulate.

While he plays a lot of music that goes beyond the confines of jazz, he has mastered the jazz idiom and there is an awful lot of examples you can find of him playing straight up jazz. He mentioned in an interview that he understands that musicians he hires are sometimes frustrated because a requirement to play with him is fluency in bop/post-bop vocabulary but that they may not get a chance to actually play bop, depending on the tour.

If you haven't listened to his straight up jazz playing, you should check it out. The guy can play anything from ballads to burners and swings like crazy.

Paulieworld

Since we’re talking about Metheny… analyze this! This is Rick Beato breaking it all down. Somehow, the analysis detracts from the music. Just listen and float. I had the great pleasure of hearing them live twice.

RIP Lyle Mays.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@Paulieworld said:
Since we’re talking about Metheny… analyze this! This is Rick Beato breaking it all down. Somehow, the analysis detracts from the music. Just listen and float. I had the great pleasure of hearing them live twice.

RIP Lyle Mays.

I heard them at the Wiltern Theater in LA back in the late 80s/early 90s. One of the best live shows ever.

michael_m

@espiegel123 said:
Addendum to my post: but to really use any scales in jazz, you need to know the vocabulary/idiom of jazz and not just the scales and chords they use. I heard Pat Metheny talk about people that know all the scales but don’t know the idiom. So, they play music that isn’t recognizable to jazz musicians as jazz—in the way someone may learn a foreign language with a perfect accent and grammar and still sound foreign because they haven’t been immersed in real language use.

So much of jazz music is like a series of musical conversations that are commentaries or critiques of ornaments on what came before.

Reading that last sentence, Louis Armstrong came to mind. He kind of had the opposite path and was criticized for gradually sanitizing his jazz while simultaneously criticizing the advancement of jazz (bebop in particular, which I believe he once disparaged as “Chinese music”).

But I do agree that jazz has very often been a response to what has come before. Maybe changes in jazz have lost people along the way, but it’s certain that jazz has never been about mechanically reproducing the chord progressions, scales and arpeggios.

GovernorSilver

Pat has some interesting books at his store - you could also shop around if you don't like his prices:

https://stores.portmerch.com/patmetheny/songbooks.html

His warmups book is interesting imo. There was some debate about it when it was first released, mainly stemming from whether or not one buys into what he says in the Introduction. Peeps who didn't buy in came away disappointed because they didn't really read the Introduction or just couldn't accept what he had to say in there. You can read the introduction by going to the link below and clicking Sample Pages.

https://www.halleonard.com/product/696587/pat-metheny-guitar-etudes

Pat studied jazz the old school way, which is the informal apprenticeship system in which seasoned jazz pros take you under their wing and teach you on the gig and at after hours jam sessions. Not an easy educational system to reproduce.

pedro

A dim7 chord is enharmonically the same as dominant seventh (with a flat 9th) without the root. Since the root is taken care by the bass, the piano or guitar parts can omit it, which might result in a simpler chord position, and also give rise to other possibilities. Dim chords are usually employed in transitions (think grace notes but with chords) because they’re not here or there in terms of tonality. Same goes for chords of the melodic minor, Cm6, F7#11, Am7b5, B7 alt, they basically all have the same notes and there’s no clashing ones (hence melodic).
But answering OP, the difference isn’t apparent in equal temperament (cause every note is off tune so they can play all tonalities), but in music theory there’s one of each note, so you can’t have two Es or two Ds (but you can have B# or Fb). And check out what a comma is.
That they happen to have the same place on the keyboard is the compromise we make for equal temperament
I have some notes on scales and modes that you might find useful. I can send them if you like
Basically all western music is built on the natural, harmonic and melodic scales (ok, maybe just 99,9%). So if you understand those you’re covered.

Edit: some errors