Why do people still think "making it" in the music industry is a thing?

Blipsford_Baubie

@Gavinski said:

@Blipsford_Baubie said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gagapokerface said:
it’s very difficult and likely requires heavy artistic compromise as well as serious skills in sales and marketing. The days of record labels investing in and developing bands is over. One has got to do the hustle on their own.

Yes, in today's music industry, if you're just in it for the music, you're probably never going to 'make it', unless you come from money. The days of just plugging along til you got great and were discovered are gone. Now, on top of musical ability, you ideally need:

Business and networking skills

Production skills

Good branding and marketing skills

Personal skills like adaptability resilience and time management.

And you still need a lot of luck. Kinda sucks!

It does suck indeed. Not anything to do with me, but I feel it sucks for the fans. The skill set required for the current day “made it” artist sounds like it would make for a pretty boring artist. Gone are the highly skilled musicians with bad excecutive functioning skills. The odd reclusive such as MJ or Prince. Terrible PR stunts such as biting a bat’s head off. Drugs and debauchery as coping mechanisms for the hard life on the road.
Crashing into cop cars, masterbating in public. Unchecked mental illness, think Theories Monk and his peculiarities. That got him, same as Pastorius.

But I suppose it’s a good thing too. That is too much for a person to endure alone.
Not healthy. They died young. Except for Keith somehow.

Absolutely, on both points. But yes, in regard to the first, it seems obvious that having to do so much of the practical stuff will a) eliminate from the start so many great, creative musicians b) mean that even the great, creative musicians who do actually have all those other skills will have a lot less time to spend on the music side, and, when they do have time, may not have the energy left to really be creative. On balance, I think the old way was better.

Agree. I also think the old way was better with regards to team effort. Sure, it was shitty that everybody was a puppet, from the artist to the engineers and session musicians. But quite a bit of magic happened sometimes amongst artists, engineers, session musicians, and the unsung heroes (ghost writers) as a collaborative unit. Maybe not actually collaborating, but not possible, or at least awesome particular result, without one of those elements—specific third party person.

AudioGus

@Blipsford_Baubie said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gagapokerface said:
it’s very difficult and likely requires heavy artistic compromise as well as serious skills in sales and marketing. The days of record labels investing in and developing bands is over. One has got to do the hustle on their own.

Yes, in today's music industry, if you're just in it for the music, you're probably never going to 'make it', unless you come from money. The days of just plugging along til you got great and were discovered are gone. Now, on top of musical ability, you ideally need:

Business and networking skills

Production skills

Good branding and marketing skills

Personal skills like adaptability resilience and time management.

And you still need a lot of luck. Kinda sucks!

It does suck indeed. Not anything to do with me, but I feel it sucks for the fans. The skill set required for the current day “made it” artist sounds like it would make for a pretty boring artist. Gone are the highly skilled musicians with bad excecutive functioning skills. The odd reclusive such as MJ or Prince. Terrible PR stunts such as biting a bat’s head off. Drugs and debauchery as coping mechanisms for the hard life on the road.
Crashing into cop cars, masterbating in public. Unchecked mental illness, think Theories Monk and his peculiarities. That got him, same as Pastorius.

But I suppose it’s a good thing too. That is too much for a person to endure alone.
Not healthy. They died young. Except for Keith somehow.

Yah now when you see an 'out there' character on stage having a moment it is more of an act than some attempted kundalini exorcism. I saw a live scream-o-rap-punk guy drinking and screaming up a storm on stage a little while ago, then after closing his set out by writhing on the floor for a couple minutes he politely went up to the mic stand, put the mic back in and unironically said "Thank you, thank you, we have a merch table in the back. If you could pick up a shirt and a hat on your way out that would be great!"

MrSmileZ

@tubespace said:
Once in a while I see posts on social media saying, "Keep it up - you'll make it someday" kind of thing. Don't people realize this is a myth?
Making a good living from content production is not possible without:

• independently wealthy
• industry connections
• a wealthy family with the above two

Sorry to be a downer, but I think it's better to be a realist then living in some sort of fantasy. Keep creating, but don't think you'll 'be discovered' someday. There are countless truly exceptional creators out there -- they are not 'making it.'

Keep creating for the love of muse - for the love of creativity. We don't need to monetize everything.

Last year - 9.7 million artists were tracked. "99.9% of the artists added to Chartmetric in 2023 ended the year in the Undiscovered and Developing categories"
"158.6 million tracks on streaming services received 1,000 or fewer plays, comprising a massive 86.2% of the 184 million tracks monitored by Luminate."

https://killthedj.com/artists-struggle-to-make-it-in-music/#:~:text=So%2C%20according%20to%20the%20report,Level%2C%20Mainstream%2C%20or%20Superstar.

I agree 10000%

NeuM

In a nutshell, the supply of music and musicians vastly outstrips demand. This is why very, very few people make a solid living in music. Same story for actors.

yellow_eyez

Everyone’s definition is different. Some are artists for art sake like many of us. Some are artists for profession, and get paid. Some are artists who are in between and there are artist that are pure businessmen, and only write for the sake of money like ad makers.

For me, making it would be to connect with a fairly well known musician and make higher level music. If that monetizes cool, but I’m doing it for the art, posterity and to pass something down for my kids and future generations

Who knows maybe one day a song might make a difference to someone like a song did for me 25 years ago “God Gave Rock and roll to you “ by kiss and Steve vai

AudioGus

For me 'making it' was always just shorthand for 'making a living'. So if you pay the bills with it 'you made it' but making it ain't always fun heh.

bygjohn

For me, making it is discovering that there are a handful of people around the planet who actually like my stuff…

I think there is still a general public perception that for your art to be deemed good it must somehow be commercially viable. Which is nothing new at all. But many people will just regard anything that hasn’t been put through the label/industry grinder as being inherently inferior. Their loss, TBH. I also think a lot of people still think recorded music has to be made how it was decades ago. There was some poor soul on I heard on the radio a while back bemoaning that she couldn’t afford studio time. I just sat there grumbling that maybe she’d do better learning how to record her stuff on her phone or other device of choice and getting on with it… 😀

Blipsford_Baubie

@AudioGus said:

@Blipsford_Baubie said:

@Gavinski said:

@Gagapokerface said:
it’s very difficult and likely requires heavy artistic compromise as well as serious skills in sales and marketing. The days of record labels investing in and developing bands is over. One has got to do the hustle on their own.

Yes, in today's music industry, if you're just in it for the music, you're probably never going to 'make it', unless you come from money. The days of just plugging along til you got great and were discovered are gone. Now, on top of musical ability, you ideally need:

Business and networking skills

Production skills

Good branding and marketing skills

Personal skills like adaptability resilience and time management.

And you still need a lot of luck. Kinda sucks!

It does suck indeed. Not anything to do with me, but I feel it sucks for the fans. The skill set required for the current day “made it” artist sounds like it would make for a pretty boring artist. Gone are the highly skilled musicians with bad excecutive functioning skills. The odd reclusive such as MJ or Prince. Terrible PR stunts such as biting a bat’s head off. Drugs and debauchery as coping mechanisms for the hard life on the road.
Crashing into cop cars, masterbating in public. Unchecked mental illness, think Theories Monk and his peculiarities. That got him, same as Pastorius.

But I suppose it’s a good thing too. That is too much for a person to endure alone.
Not healthy. They died young. Except for Keith somehow.

Yah now when you see an 'out there' character on stage having a moment it is more of an act than some attempted kundalini exorcism. I saw a live scream-o-rap-punk guy drinking and screaming up a storm on stage a little while ago, then after closing his set out by writhing on the floor for a couple minutes he politely went up to the mic stand, put the mic back in and unironically said "Thank you, thank you, we have a merch table in the back. If you could pick up a shirt and a hat on your way out that would be great!"

That’s hilarious, if I saw it on a sitcom .

jollyDodger

I have hope for the future of art in this brave new world. The digital mass cloning/streaming of the recorded medium, combined with our new machine learning collaborators . Has led too the traditional record of the art object, being on average worthless, both financially and culturally. We are in a moment of flux.

Most artists need to have side-gigs, teaching, being an artist in residence, selling apps, corporate jingles, a YouTube hustle or working on the road/festival circuit etc. Life goes on being mundane. However being a cultural creator of our magical shared idea space is an immense privilege, and the muse striking upon oneself too resonate our species. Is imo beyond the judgement of making it as a winner or a loser.

Let us witness the miracle of creation in live performance together and give thanks, for life is real and it is good. pax

supadom

In my mind making it equals recognition.

In a capitalist system financial recognition is part of the game.

Svetlovska

One of my noises, over a three month period on SoundCloud, typically averages between 200 and 400 plays. I’ve now made in excess of 200 of them, over 26,000 plays since I started my latest SoundCloud Pro account, and about the same again from the previous one. (Not all currently available there.) That’s nothing for a ‘real’ professional musician. But it’s a hell of a lot more reach than my various bands ever managed. I’ve spent several tens of thousands on gear over the years, and made not a bean in return. As a business plan it stinks. But I’ll take it, with thanks.

kirmesteggno

Music events are growing: https://www.statista.com/outlook/dmo/eservices/event-tickets/music-events/worldwide

AI and the ongoing democratization of VR will likely reinforce this making human live performances more valuable and provide more (virtual) spaces for performances and lower the barrier to host your own events. Something that couldn't take place locally due to being too niche could happen on a virtual stage and global level.

u0421793

making it in the old days meant paying a plugger or two
(the record company or your manager would handle that)

I’m quite confident that making it now means paying a plugger or two

tubespace

@bygjohn said:
For me, making it is discovering that there are a handful of people around the planet who actually like my stuff…

I think there is still a general public perception that for your art to be deemed good it must somehow be commercially viable. Which is nothing new at all. But many people will just regard anything that hasn’t been put through the label/industry grinder as being inherently inferior. Their loss, TBH.

So true - natural reaction on the part of regular people - falling in line with society that monetizes everything.

ecou

@u0421793 said:
making it in the old days meant paying a plugger or two
(the record company or your manager would handle that)

I’m quite confident that making it now means paying a plugger or two

I have a plunger or two. 🪠🪠Does that work too ?

AudioGus

@tubespace said:

For me, making it is discovering that there are a handful of people around the planet who actually like my stuff…

@bygjohn said: I think there is still a general public perception that for your art to be deemed good it must somehow be commercially viable. Which is nothing new at all. But many people will just regard anything that hasn’t been put through the label/industry grinder as being inherently inferior. Their loss, TBH.

So true - natural reaction on the part of regular people - falling in line with society that monetizes everything.

I am the same way. I can get one genuine compliment from someone I respect who actually seems to want to listen to my stuff and then draw upon that as motivation for years. For some people it is a numbers game, which I guess is what the whole capital thing reflects anyway, so I can see why they would use that as a metric of success if numbers matter to them. But the more people you get together in a room the less interested I am in what they think anyway. But yah, never really used the term 'making it' as it just sounds like begging for approval, willingly bending over for an industry and a mob etc.

ElektrikDiva

@klownshed said:
The music industry has completely changed. There used to be gatekeepers that firstly decided which artists would be signed, then established what music would be played on radio and TV and the only way to hear any new music that wasn't on the radio was to go to a gig or take a punt and buy the record without hearing it.

It was a small group of powerful people in the music industry that made those choices for us.

Certain things would always creep through the gaps, hence the proliferation of novelty songs in the 80s for example but generally, the record companies and TV and radio execs pretty much decided who'd be popular.

These days it's obviously far less important who gets played on TV or the radio. It's still a big deal in the UK at least to get onto the Radio 1 playlist, but most artists won't make any money from their songs being played unless they have a 'classic' back catalogue or had hits in the 80s/90s etc.

However today we can write, record and release an album from our own sofas. We can use similar tools that were previously only available to the elite -- A Fairlight used to cost as much as a house. Today you can write, record and release an album all on your phone.

I'm certainly glad that I'm able to make and release music. It's kind of a vanity project as nobody will ever listen to what I 'release', but it's a really nice feeling to be able to say "I made this!" and I get to upload my album to the same platforms that all the 'real' musicians are on.

My music will never earn me a penny, but I never expected anything more. It's the ultimate way of underlining a project as finished and moving on...

Music has been massively democratised. It was never easy to make it big. If anything it's slightly easier today as it's easier for people to actually make music. Given the right orientation of the stars there's always a chance for somebody to catch a wave and have their five minutes of fame. But as it's easier, there are far more people fighting to get heard.

BUT it's also far easier to get heard as you can share your music on multiple platforms and be heard by people the world over. Sharing a song here for example will get you more pairs of ears than would ever have been possible 30 years ago.

It's always been hard to make it big. It's just different harder today but it's far easier to have an audience today than it has ever been, especially for niche music where there's a very small but very dedicated following of certain genres of music.

But ultimately unless you're fantastic at promoting yourself, you're going to get lost amongst the other 100,000 songs released that day. As there are no longer any gatekeepers, most of those 100,000 songs would never have been allowed to be released 30/40 years ago. Nobody checked my album to see if it was 'worthy' of release!

So beautifully and eloquently stated Klowshed. I agree 100% with you. Cheers, ED

ElektrikDiva

@michael_m said:

@jwmmakerofmusic said:
Being an independent artist is far more enjoyable than the idea of working for a record label to be honest.

I can’t speak for myself, but a friend (well, a friend I haven’t seen in at least 10 years) works for a major label as a songwriter. Essentially he signs over all his rights to a song for a one-time payment then moves on. The label then adds the song to a pool of songs they offer to artists and it might not ever get recorded or even listened to.

In some ways I do envy him as he needs to sell 3 or 4 songs to them every year to make a good living, and he spends the rest of his time on other projects. However, he did say more than once that it’s really disheartening at times that his songs just become sellable commodities.

Michael thanks so much for giving me such a fascinating insiders peek at how the modern Brill Building method of professional songwriters works and how this process is commercialized now. We all need to put all of these wise insights into a book- it might make everyone much more money than modern modes of musicmaking LOL. I find this discussion so interesting so I thank you everyone for sharing your expertise and insight with the group. PS I'd buy that book! Cheers, ED

ElektrikDiva

@tubespace said:

@klownshed said:
The music industry has completely changed. There used to be gatekeepers that firstly decided which artists would be signed, then established what music would be played on radio and TV and the only way to hear any new music that wasn't on the radio was to go to a gig or take a punt and buy the record without hearing it.

It was a small group of powerful people in the music industry that made those choices for us.

Certain things would always creep through the gaps, hence the proliferation of novelty songs in the 80s for example but generally, the record companies and TV and radio execs pretty much decided who'd be popular.

These days it's obviously far less important who gets played on TV or the radio. It's still a big deal in the UK at least to get onto the Radio 1 playlist, but most artists won't make any money from their songs being played unless they have a 'classic' back catalogue or had hits in the 80s/90s etc.

However today we can write, record and release an album from our own sofas. We can use similar tools that were previously only available to the elite -- A Fairlight used to cost as much as a house. Today you can write, record and release an album all on your phone.

I'm certainly glad that I'm able to make and release music. It's kind of a vanity project as nobody will ever listen to what I 'release', but it's a really nice feeling to be able to say "I made this!" and I get to upload my album to the same platforms that all the 'real' musicians are on.

My music will never earn me a penny, but I never expected anything more. It's the ultimate way of underlining a project as finished and moving on...

Music has been massively democratised. It was never easy to make it big. If anything it's slightly easier today as it's easier for people to actually make music. Given the right orientation of the stars there's always a chance for somebody to catch a wave and have their five minutes of fame. But as it's easier, there are far more people fighting to get heard.

BUT it's also far easier to get heard as you can share your music on multiple platforms and be heard by people the world over. Sharing a song here for example will get you more pairs of ears than would ever have been possible 30 years ago.

It's always been hard to make it big. It's just different harder today but it's far easier to have an audience today than it has ever been, especially for niche music where there's a very small but very dedicated following of certain genres of music.

But ultimately unless you're fantastic at promoting yourself, you're going to get lost amongst the other 100,000 songs released that day. As there are no longer any gatekeepers, most of those 100,000 songs would never have been allowed to be released 30/40 years ago. Nobody checked my album to see if it was 'worthy' of release!

Yes - excellent points. The market is saturated, now that the original gatekeepers to production are essentially gone. And as a consumer, I'm noticing that I also flip through lots of great music -- scrolling on by at a much quicker pace than I would have a few decades ago. There seems to be less time to chew and digest thoughtful content. I will focus only on the specific genre that I'm feeling like at that particular time (sometimes it's ambient, other times it's dub reggae, etc) -- even though the other content is created so nicely. There's just way too much at my fingertips -- and my day is so much busier.

But it is a bit cringey to see people ask questions online like, "How do I make it big as a producer?" They want to give up their day job to have a lucrative career in the music industry - like it's still the 80s and 90s.
Who wants to tell them?

+1 Tubes same!

AudioGus

@ElektrikDiva said:

@michael_m said:

@jwmmakerofmusic said:
Being an independent artist is far more enjoyable than the idea of working for a record label to be honest.

I can’t speak for myself, but a friend (well, a friend I haven’t seen in at least 10 years) works for a major label as a songwriter. Essentially he signs over all his rights to a song for a one-time payment then moves on. The label then adds the song to a pool of songs they offer to artists and it might not ever get recorded or even listened to.

In some ways I do envy him as he needs to sell 3 or 4 songs to them every year to make a good living, and he spends the rest of his time on other projects. However, he did say more than once that it’s really disheartening at times that his songs just become sellable commodities.

Michael thanks so much for giving me such a fascinating insiders peek at how the modern Brill Building method of professional songwriters works and how this process is commercialized now. We all need to put all of these wise insights into a book- it might make everyone much more money than modern modes of musicmaking LOL. I find this discussion so interesting so I thank you everyone for sharing your expertise and insight with the group. PS I'd buy that book! Cheers, ED

This method of labels having song writers to build libraries of potential releases was around even back in the 50s.

jebni

@AudioGus said:

@ElektrikDiva said:

@michael_m said:

@jwmmakerofmusic said:
Being an independent artist is far more enjoyable than the idea of working for a record label to be honest.

I can’t speak for myself, but a friend (well, a friend I haven’t seen in at least 10 years) works for a major label as a songwriter. Essentially he signs over all his rights to a song for a one-time payment then moves on. The label then adds the song to a pool of songs they offer to artists and it might not ever get recorded or even listened to.

In some ways I do envy him as he needs to sell 3 or 4 songs to them every year to make a good living, and he spends the rest of his time on other projects. However, he did say more than once that it’s really disheartening at times that his songs just become sellable commodities.

Michael thanks so much for giving me such a fascinating insiders peek at how the modern Brill Building method of professional songwriters works and how this process is commercialized now. We all need to put all of these wise insights into a book- it might make everyone much more money than modern modes of musicmaking LOL. I find this discussion so interesting so I thank you everyone for sharing your expertise and insight with the group. PS I'd buy that book! Cheers, ED

This method of labels having song writers to build libraries of potential releases was around even back in the 50s.

I think that was ED’s point. I thought having a publishing catalogue for a stable of artists had given way to an emphasis on acts who recorded their own material in the ‘60s, and then producer-songwriting teams like the Matrix. Weren’t the guys from Steely Dan the last gasp of that tradition — I mean, did they turn to recording their own music because the Brill Building model had collapsed? Genuine question, cos I’m not informed on such matters.

AudioGus

@jebni said:

@AudioGus said:

@ElektrikDiva said:

@michael_m said:

@jwmmakerofmusic said:
Being an independent artist is far more enjoyable than the idea of working for a record label to be honest.

I can’t speak for myself, but a friend (well, a friend I haven’t seen in at least 10 years) works for a major label as a songwriter. Essentially he signs over all his rights to a song for a one-time payment then moves on. The label then adds the song to a pool of songs they offer to artists and it might not ever get recorded or even listened to.

In some ways I do envy him as he needs to sell 3 or 4 songs to them every year to make a good living, and he spends the rest of his time on other projects. However, he did say more than once that it’s really disheartening at times that his songs just become sellable commodities.

Michael thanks so much for giving me such a fascinating insiders peek at how the modern Brill Building method of professional songwriters works and how this process is commercialized now. We all need to put all of these wise insights into a book- it might make everyone much more money than modern modes of musicmaking LOL. I find this discussion so interesting so I thank you everyone for sharing your expertise and insight with the group. PS I'd buy that book! Cheers, ED

This method of labels having song writers to build libraries of potential releases was around even back in the 50s.

I think that was ED’s point. I thought having a publishing catalogue for a stable of artists had given way to an emphasis on acts who recorded their own material in the ‘60s, and then producer-songwriting teams like the Matrix. Weren’t the guys from Steely Dan the last gasp of that tradition — I mean, did they turn to recording their own music because the Brill Building model had collapsed? Genuine question, cos I’m not informed on such matters.

Ahhh I think the use of 'modern' threw me, heh