How do I….curv a sound to zero after all key releases?

Fruitbat1919

I have a nice lush sound with BA1 and Modnetic and Diffuse.

I would like to have the volume of the sound as a whole reduce to zero with a nice quick curve when no keys are held. I can’t do this with the BA1 envelopes, as the fx sounds will still sound and I want the fx sound still sounding while a key is held. I’m presuming that I need an app that I can put some sort of envelope on the total volume of the sound?

If anyone gets what I’m trying to describe, then leave suggested apps and setup if possible

Suggestions so far:
1. MiRack set up. Can’t try as yet due to not having MiRack.
2. FAC Envolver. Works, but the threshold setting per sound can be crucial or can cut off sound while a key still pressed and is affected by the different stereo levels, so not perfect.
3. Drambo midifx ADSR. Works to some degree, but the envelope can be triggered while some keys are still depressed, so no cigar I'm afraid.

bygjohn

You could do it with MiRack in an effects slot after the other effects:

Send the MIDI for the synth to MiRack as well. This patch takes the gate and uses it to operate an envelope generator. That controls a VCA, and the audio goes into the VCA and out again the other side. Set the attack on the envelope to as low as possible to preserve you original attack, and adjust the decay to suit. If you want this polyphonic, things will get more complex, and I haven’t tried to figure that out.

Edit: just tried polyphony. You need to up the polyphony count in the MIDI module, and use Sum Poly Inputs on the VCA, as that module works out polyphony from the number of polyphony streams on the left audio input, so it won’t work for this job (you only have the one stereo audio channel). Not perfect, as it’ll only fade all of the sound once the last gate ends, rather than individual notes.

Fruitbat1919

@bygjohn said:
You could do it with MiRack in an effects slot after the other effects:

Send the MIDI for the synth to MiRack as well. This patch takes the gate and uses it to operate an envelope generator. That controls a VCA, and the audio goes into the VCA and out again the other side. Set the attack on the envelope to as low as possible to preserve you original attack, and adjust the decay to suit. If you want this polyphonic, things will get more complex, and I haven’t tried to figure that out.

Edit: just tried polyphony. You need to up the polyphony count in the MIDI module, and use Sum Poly Inputs on the VCA, as that module works out polyphony from the number of polyphony streams on the left audio input, so it won’t work for this job (you only have the one stereo audio channel). Not perfect, as it’ll only fade all of the sound once the last gate ends, rather than individual notes.

I don’t have MiRack, so will have to wait till next pays spending round lol, but thanks looks promising.

Fruitbat1919

@SinghSong said:
Sounds like you need FAC Envolver by Fred Anton Corvest, a versatile and powerful audio app that transforms how one sculpts and molds audio. This app offers a dynamic and intuitive interface for modulating sounds based on the amplitude of an input signal, making it a favorite among musicians, producers, and sound designers.

For instance, let’s say the user wants to create an evolving pad sound that swells and fades in sync with the beat of their track. By routing the kick drum’s audio signal into FAC Envolver, they can use its envelope follower to modulate the filter cutoff of the pad sound. This creates a rhythmic pulsing effect that adds movement and energy, making the pad feel alive and more integrated with the rest of the music.

Another example might involve a user aiming to add expressive dynamics to a static synth lead. By feeding the lead’s audio signal into FAC Envolver, they can map the amplitude envelope to parameters such as pitch, filter resonance, or effects like reverb and delay. This results in a sound that responds to the intensity of the playing, becoming more resonant and expansive with louder notes, and more subdued with softer ones.

FAC Envolver can also be employed creatively in sound design for more unconventional results. Imagine a user working on a cinematic soundscape who wants to create a morphing texture from an ambient noise recording. By routing the noise through FAC Envolver and using the app to control a granular synthesis effect, they can produce evolving, complex textures that shift and change based on the amplitude variations of the original noise signal.

Overall, FAC Envolver provides users with a powerful tool to shape their sound dynamically, making it an essential app for anyone looking to push the boundaries of their audio creations.

Also, a more informative thread title will help get you better answers in forums.

AI can be your friend with just a little bit of effort and thought. Thanks AI 🍩

Yeah, I did think the title may be a little vague, but my brain just wasn’t helping lol. I have FAC Envolver, so will have a play and see if I can make it do what I want. Thanks.

rototom

the best solution is...

sigma79

I use a Drambo env mod. Its just 2 knobs for attack and decay.

After each Fac drum instance.

So I dont have to adjust the envelopes sometimes via Fac drum.

Fruitbat1919

@sigma79 said:
I use a Drambo env mod. Its just 2 knobs for attack and decay.

After each Fac drum instance.

So I dont have to adjust the envelopes sometimes via Fac drum.

I have Drambo, but not really used it beyond messing about with the sequencer. How would I achieve this?

McD

I think the trick will be sending a very dry audio signal into FAC Envolver so the reverb carry over doesn’t confuse your resulting CC Envelope which is then applied as needed to volume controls in specific modules/synths to achieve your goals.

FAC Envolver is easier to learn than Drambo.

sigma79

@Fruitbat1919 said:

@sigma79 said:
I use a Drambo env mod. Its just 2 knobs for attack and decay.

After each Fac drum instance.

So I dont have to adjust the envelopes sometimes via Fac drum.

I have Drambo, but not really used it beyond messing about with the sequencer. How would I achieve this?

I think if its just an adsr you need.

Open drambo as an mfx in say aum.

Then open an adsr fx in drambo.

Thats it lol.

The env mod ( from the few fx adsr options )

Is just knobs ( easier for me )

Fruitbat1919

@McD said:
I think the trick will be sending a very dry audio signal into FAC Envolver so the reverb carry over doesn’t confuse your resulting CC Envelope which is then applied as needed to volume controls in specific modules/synths to achieve your goals.

FAC Envolver is easier to learn than Drambo.

Don’t seem to have much of an issue with the reverb, it’s more an issue of changing presets has different levels and I would have to adjust the settings with each preset. The YouTube vid shows that it works well playing chords, but the minute I play one key, the settings need adjusting and the stereo levels can effect the envelope.

@sigma79 said:

@Fruitbat1919 said:

@sigma79 said:
I use a Drambo env mod. Its just 2 knobs for attack and decay.

After each Fac drum instance.

So I dont have to adjust the envelopes sometimes via Fac drum.

I have Drambo, but not really used it beyond messing about with the sequencer. How would I achieve this?

I think if its just an adsr you need.

Open drambo as an mfx in say aum.

Then open an adsr fx in drambo.

Thats it lol.

The env mod ( from the few fx adsr options )

Is just knobs ( easier for me )

I’m missing something lol. Nothing new for my brain though.

pedro

If you have drambo, and what you want is just to mute sound when you release all keys then what @sigma79 said seems the easiest solution. You can even use a graphic envelope and go crazy with those curves.
As wonderful as FAC envolver is, you don’t need following anything in this scenario. You just need a CV gate that becomes zero as you release all keys which drambo does out of the box. You can tune the release times as to let more reverb or delay come through afterwards.

The other issue you mentioned, about different levels is a total different one, and should be dealt with “upstream”. If you want to switch presets that have wild volume ranges, then maybe start by taming them.. create copies that are similar loudness and use those.

Anyway just my .02€

Fruitbat1919

@pedro said:
If you have drambo, and what you want is just to mute sound when you release all keys then what @sigma79 said seems the easiest solution. You can even use a graphic envelope and go crazy with those curves.
As wonderful as FAC envolver is, you don’t need following anything in this scenario. You just need a CV gate that becomes zero as you release all keys which drambo does out of the box. You can tune the release times as to let more reverb or delay come through afterwards.

The other issue you mentioned, about different levels is a total different one, and should be dealt with “upstream”. If you want to switch presets that have wild volume ranges, then maybe start by taming them.. create copies that are similar loudness and use those.

Anyway just my .02€

The levels are only an issue when I'm using the FAC Envolver envelope solution. I'm interested in the Drambo solution, but I'm not sure how to set it up.

rs2000

@Fruitbat1919 said:

@pedro said:
If you have drambo, and what you want is just to mute sound when you release all keys then what @sigma79 said seems the easiest solution. You can even use a graphic envelope and go crazy with those curves.
As wonderful as FAC envolver is, you don’t need following anything in this scenario. You just need a CV gate that becomes zero as you release all keys which drambo does out of the box. You can tune the release times as to let more reverb or delay come through afterwards.

The other issue you mentioned, about different levels is a total different one, and should be dealt with “upstream”. If you want to switch presets that have wild volume ranges, then maybe start by taming them.. create copies that are similar loudness and use those.

Anyway just my .02€

The levels are only an issue when I'm using the FAC Envolver envelope solution. I'm interested in the Drambo solution, but I'm not sure how to set it up.

You can do it like this in Drambo.
The idea: MIDI goes to your synth plugin and the MIDI2CV module at the same time, so you can trigger the ADSR Envelope with each key pressed.
I don't think that's too complicated

Fruitbat1919

@rs2000 said:

@Fruitbat1919 said:

@pedro said:
If you have drambo, and what you want is just to mute sound when you release all keys then what @sigma79 said seems the easiest solution. You can even use a graphic envelope and go crazy with those curves.
As wonderful as FAC envolver is, you don’t need following anything in this scenario. You just need a CV gate that becomes zero as you release all keys which drambo does out of the box. You can tune the release times as to let more reverb or delay come through afterwards.

The other issue you mentioned, about different levels is a total different one, and should be dealt with “upstream”. If you want to switch presets that have wild volume ranges, then maybe start by taming them.. create copies that are similar loudness and use those.

Anyway just my .02€

The levels are only an issue when I'm using the FAC Envolver envelope solution. I'm interested in the Drambo solution, but I'm not sure how to set it up.

You can do it like this in Drambo.
The idea: MIDI goes to your synth plugin and the MIDI2CV module at the same time, so you can trigger the ADSR Envelope with each key pressed.
I don't think that's too complicated

Found my mistake. I had loaded Drambo as an FX and not a MFX so couldn't connect the midi.

Fruitbat1919

Thanks everyone

McD

@Fruitbat1919 said:
Found my mistake. I had loaded Drambo as an FX and not a MFX so couldn't connect the midi.

Can Drambo run on the “Apple Vision Pro”? I just imagined myself waving my hands around learning Drambo in a controlled environment without distractions except those “bio-breaks”.

Fruitbat1919

@McD said:

@Fruitbat1919 said:
Found my mistake. I had loaded Drambo as an FX and not a MFX so couldn't connect the midi.

Can Drambo run on the “Apple Vision Pro”? I just imagined myself waving my hands around learning Drambo in a controlled environment without distractions except those “bio-breaks”.

Maybe Apple will bring out the iColostomy Vision Pro add on, so no need for 'bio-breaks'!

wim

@Fruitbat1919 said:
I have a nice lush sound with BA1 and Modnetic and Diffuse.

I would like to have the volume of the sound as a whole reduce to zero with a nice quick curve when no keys are held. I can’t do this with the BA1 envelopes, as the fx sounds will still sound and I want the fx sound still sounding while a key is held. I’m presuming that I need an app that I can put some sort of envelope on the total volume of the sound?

If anyone gets what I’m trying to describe, then leave suggested apps and setup if possible

Suggestions so far:
1. MiRack set up. Can’t try as yet due to not having MiRack.
2. FAC Envolver. Works, but the threshold setting per sound can be crucial or can cut off sound while a key still pressed and is affected by the different stereo levels, so not perfect.

Either I'm misreading this, or it seems to like none of the answers so far is exactly on the mark. If I understand correctly, you need something to keep track of the number of notes held down and when that number reaches zero due to all notes being released, you want that to trigger an envelope that can be mapped to a volume control or fader.

That sounds like it needs a midi-aware script. I can envision a Mozaic script that would do that. A simple counter would keep track of the number of notes held down. When that counter reaches zero after being non-zero, a decay envelope is fired, sending descending CC values that could be used to control an app's master volume, or a host's fader.

The problem with this is getting the volume back up to normal before the next midi note is played. Waiting until the next note so that the counter is non-zero again is likely to cause volume spikes or, if the response of the volume control is slow, will miss the initial attack.

So, while mechanically, it seems like the right approach, and the script wouldn't be too complicated, in practice I think it would have significant issues.

wim

I think the best approach is to ride the volume or fader manually, either directly in the app, or with an expression slider such as those that you can set up in Xequence AUv3 Keys.

Fruitbat1919

@wim said:

@Fruitbat1919 said:
I have a nice lush sound with BA1 and Modnetic and Diffuse.

I would like to have the volume of the sound as a whole reduce to zero with a nice quick curve when no keys are held. I can’t do this with the BA1 envelopes, as the fx sounds will still sound and I want the fx sound still sounding while a key is held. I’m presuming that I need an app that I can put some sort of envelope on the total volume of the sound?

If anyone gets what I’m trying to describe, then leave suggested apps and setup if possible

Suggestions so far:
1. MiRack set up. Can’t try as yet due to not having MiRack.
2. FAC Envolver. Works, but the threshold setting per sound can be crucial or can cut off sound while a key still pressed and is affected by the different stereo levels, so not perfect.

Either I'm misreading this, or it seems to like none of the answers so far is exactly on the mark. If I understand correctly, you need something to keep track of the number of notes held down and when that number reaches zero due to all notes being released, you want that to trigger an envelope that can be mapped to a volume control or fader.

That sounds like it needs a midi-aware script. I can envision a Mozaic script that would do that. A simple counter would keep track of the number of notes held down. When that counter reaches zero after being non-zero, a decay envelope is fired, sending descending CC values that could be used to control an app's master volume, or a host's fader.

The problem with this is getting the volume back up to normal before the next midi note is played. Waiting until the next note so that the counter is non-zero again is likely to cause volume spikes or, if the response of the volume control is slow, will miss the initial attack.

So, while mechanically, it seems like the right approach, and the script wouldn't be too complicated, in practice I think it would have significant issues.

You are correct.

After retrying the Dranbo solution I've noticed that the envelope can be triggered when some keys are released but not all, so that's not working..> @wim said:

I think the best approach is to ride the volume or fader manually, either directly in the app, or with an expression slider such as those that you can set up in Xequence AUv3 Keys.

You may be right, So far none of the solutions are doing exactly what I wanted, so a foot pedal or automation in Logic may be a more practical solution for now.

McD

I would send the keyboard input to something like an organ app. If any key is down you have signal.
If all keys are up you have no signal. That organ app can be fed into the detector app (Drambo or FAC Envolver) to generate a CC stream. When that CC stream = 0 you know no keys are down.

@_ki tackled the “all notes” off Mozaic script on request and there’s a thread with the pointer to his patchstorage solution. I’ll research the use case and his solution. As a recall that user wanted to sort the notes numerically as finger were lifted or some such use case. All notes lifted was a special case when the sustain pedal was also down or some tricky detail.

rs2000

@McD said:

@Fruitbat1919 said:
Found my mistake. I had loaded Drambo as an FX and not a MFX so couldn't connect the midi.

Can Drambo run on the “Apple Vision Pro”? I just imagined myself waving my hands around learning Drambo in a controlled environment without distractions except those “bio-breaks”.

Yes, I've seen a private video of someone who has the Apple Vision Pro with Drambo hovering somewhere in the room, next to other apps. Seemed to work well.
And that made me wish for haptic feedback immediately 😉

Fruitbat1919

@McD said:
I would send the keyboard input to something like an organ app. If any key is down you have signal.
If all keys are up you have no signal. That organ app can be fed into the detector app (Drambo or FAC Envolver) to generate a CC stream. When that CC stream = 0 you know no keys are down.

@_ki tackled the “all notes” off Mozaic script on request and there’s a thread with the pointer to his patchstorage solution. I’ll research the use case and his solution. As a recall that user wanted to sort the notes numerically as finger were lifted or some such use case. All notes lifted was a special case when the sustain pedal was also down or some tricky detail.

I should have stated in the initial thread that I’m a ‘midiot’ lol. I did understand some of that though….well a little anyway!

bygjohn

Interesting thread, this. A couple of thoughts have just sprung to mind regarding alternative approaches to the problem - ignore if these are stupid ideas.

1. If the problem is that the extended tails are muddying things up, you could either gate or sidechain them using something like Flux Mini or Gatelab.
2. If you’d just like the sound you’ve got with a different release time, you could sample it and apply a different envelope in the sampler.

Both are simplistic, and have their own down sides, obviously.

McD

@Fruitbat1919 said:

@McD said:
I would send the keyboard input to something like an organ app. If any key is down you have signal.
If all keys are up you have no signal. That organ app can be fed into the detector app (Drambo or FAC Envolver) to generate a CC stream. When that CC stream = 0 you know no keys are down.

@_ki tackled the “all notes” off Mozaic script on request and there’s a thread with the pointer to his patchstorage solution. I’ll research the use case and his solution. As a recall that user wanted to sort the notes numerically as finger were lifted or some such use case. All notes lifted was a special case when the sustain pedal was also down or some tricky detail.

I should have stated in the initial thread that I’m a ‘midiot’ lol. I did understand some of that though….well a little anyway!

I’m just throwing out “solutions” without understanding the problem… it’s sort of my thing.
I get the all fingers off the keys but I’m not sure what you’d like to happen and I never re-read
the original post when I’m on a roll thinking of new solutions.

The good news is that there are people here that read and ask questions to really customize a solution that addresses the problem. Have you considered using Drambo and Moziac together. That’s a solution for an infinity of problems. Of course, before Mozaic there was StreamByter and before Drambo we just begged programmers to write an app for us.

After Drambo we can ask for anything that Drambo cannot do. And don’t get me started on Mozaic
for anything that requires MIDI transformations or creation.

Fruitbat1919

@bygjohn said:
Interesting thread, this. A couple of thoughts have just sprung to mind regarding alternative approaches to the problem - ignore if these are stupid ideas.

1. If the problem is that the extended tails are muddying things up, you could either gate or sidechain them using something like Flux Mini or Gatelab.
2. If you’d just like the sound you’ve got with a different release time, you could sample it and apply a different envelope in the sampler.

Both are simplistic, and have their own down sides, obviously.

Some interesting thoughts. 1. The ‘muddying’ is an issue, as some of the fx tails are very long and I only want to hear them while I’m holding keys down. They would simply continue their sound into other parts of the track leading to the sound where I don’t want it. I’m not sure I could do what I want with Flux, as I want to be able to play the sounds in live to begin with to get the feel I want, which mean, I don’t know where I exactly need the volume gated until I release all keys, so as Wim said, a volume pedal may be the easiest solution - which could also be easier said than done in my current setup, as I think my Korg XD needs a firmware update to send all its CC values over midi.
2. Yeah, sampling could work in some instances, but then I would have to do an awful lot of sampling to cover all the different sounds and it still would have some issues, but some all thinking outside the box could lead to a solution, so thanks for your thoughts.

Fruitbat1919

@McD said:

@Fruitbat1919 said:

@McD said:
I would send the keyboard input to something like an organ app. If any key is down you have signal.
If all keys are up you have no signal. That organ app can be fed into the detector app (Drambo or FAC Envolver) to generate a CC stream. When that CC stream = 0 you know no keys are down.

@_ki tackled the “all notes” off Mozaic script on request and there’s a thread with the pointer to his patchstorage solution. I’ll research the use case and his solution. As a recall that user wanted to sort the notes numerically as finger were lifted or some such use case. All notes lifted was a special case when the sustain pedal was also down or some tricky detail.

I should have stated in the initial thread that I’m a ‘midiot’ lol. I did understand some of that though….well a little anyway!

I’m just throwing out “solutions” without understanding the problem… it’s sort of my thing.
I get the all fingers off the keys but I’m not sure what you’d like to happen and I never re-read
the original post when I’m on a roll thinking of new solutions.

The good news is that there are people here that read and ask questions to really customize a solution that addresses the problem. Have you considered using Drambo and Moziac together. That’s a solution for an infinity of problems. Of course, before Mozaic there was StreamByter and before Drambo we just begged programmers to write an app for us.

After Drambo we can ask for anything that Drambo cannot do. And don’t get me started on Mozaic
for anything that requires MIDI transformations or creation.

Well all thoughts on the subject are gratefully accepted. I must admit I rarely use Moziac or Drambo, but can see how powerful they can be.

McD

@Fruitbat1919 said:
Well all thoughts on the subject are gratefully accepted. I must admit I rarely use Moziac or Drambo, but can see how powerful they can be.

I rarely use Drambo because it requires hours of watching videos and it’s better to just buy more apps
that I also rarely use. “Squirrel”.

Today I’m eyeing these new “Surreal Machines” apps that do what my current apps can do, BUT they have the Desktop Seal of Approval: which means better quality.and testing. I’m going to inforce some discipline and wait until after dinner to invest.

Fruitbat1919

@McD said:

@Fruitbat1919 said:
Well all thoughts on the subject are gratefully accepted. I must admit I rarely use Moziac or Drambo, but can see how powerful they can be.

I rarely use Drambo because it requires hours of watching videos and it’s better to just buy more apps
that I also rarely use. “Squirrel”.

Today I’m eyeing these new “Surreal Machines” apps that do what my current apps can do, BUT they have the Desktop Seal of Approval: which means better quality.and testing. I’m going to inforce some discipline and wait until after dinner to invest.

I kinda disagree with your comical look at apps, however funny. There are other reasons why some apps get less use than they deserve. For myself the time given to learn apps is finite, so at this time Logic for iPad gets most of my spare time. This does not equate to not buying apps that you don't get total use from though, as even 10% use of some apps is worth their cheap price of admission.

Do we all 'squirrel' away apps? Of course we do, but to be fair, there are far easier ways to waste money. The pleasure one can get from a new app should never be underestimated. Also never forget that some of us are 'midiots' - nothing less than a flow chart and simple point by point instructions will penetrate our thick skulls lol.

I do however like the idea of 'squirreling' away some apps for a rainy day or that pending zombie apocalypse!

McD

@Fruitbat1919 said:
Also never forget that some of us are 'midiots'

Hmm... I must be Drambonehead.

An ilLogic Pro from iPad.

A loopy Loopy noGo.

OK. My Amazon Prime Day Orba 2 arrived tonight... that should keep me busy for a week or two.

Fruitbat1919

@McD said:

@Fruitbat1919 said:
Also never forget that some of us are 'midiots'

Hmm... I must be Drambonehead.

An ilLogic Pro from iPad.

A loopy Loopy noGo.

OK. My Amazon Prime Day Orba 2 arrived tonight... that should keep me busy for a week or two.

yes, go play....