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How do you go about layering sounds for Trance and other genres of music?
So, I want to produce some more intricate and complex Trance music arrangements compared to some of my more recent pieces. Prime example of (imho) lackluster Trance is this...
...which is serviceable, but not really at the level of a Trance god like Paul Van Dyk (my latest musical obsession).
Perfection.
Anyways, there are a holy shitload of Trance music tutorials on Youtube specifically about layering sounds, so asking for Youtube tutorials isn't the purpose of this thread.
Rather, the purpose of this thread is to find out your personal tips and tricks for layering sounds and making more complex arrangements, whether the genre you produce is Trance (and its many subgenres), or Ambient and Experimental, or other forms of EDM, or even genres that I don't normally produce or wouldn't have considered.
So, what genre(s) do you produce, and what techniques do you personally use to bring about a more complex arrangement? I'm seeking this personal advice in relation to Trance production, but perhaps there are techniques for layering sounds specific to other genres that could potentially apply to Trance music, even if unorthodox.
(Again, I'm watching the tutorials on Youtube, but I'm just curious as to your personal takes on the subject and to get an interesting and insightful discussion going.)
Also tagging @dendy as I know he'll have some solid insights.
Comments
I make all sorts of house and techno, lofi mostly. I’ve made the odd psy-trance thing for friends. I’ve been to pvd amnesia residency back in the day & danced my feet off to zeta spore in fields in Lincoln but never quite comfortable with making it even though I love a gate.
That said, with layering it’s a couldron of the dark arts. My tip would be, once you’ve got a few stacked up. Start removing them. If it instantly sounds worse with the removal of an element, you put back in.
i often double lead melody with same notes just transposed octave lower (or even one octave lower AND two octaves lower) to get more thick sound - the i apply hipass filter to remove too much low end (to not collide with bass) and at the end i apply a subtle amount of ovedrive
more advanced alternative of this technique is to use 2-3 instances of same instrument (same patch).. then i put -1octave amd -2octave strictly to mono and use stereo widening just on top main layer.. then i play with subtle patch changes (more filtering, more detuning) on bottom layers .. again at the end rest is mixed to one channel, applied subtle overdrive and only then delay/reverb..
also i use a lot of sidechaining (kick vs. everything else in mix, various lebels of sidechaining on subgrouos)
i always try to have a lot of "going on" in track (lot of automations, not just main lead but also little arpeggios here and there, stuff playing background).. automation is crucial for me, to have feeling of ever changing sound texture
@squeals Sounds like a great tip.
Maybe the opposite is also true - start adding sounds until there's a fuller mix, and if something isn't working, find the culprit and remove it. This is usually more my approach - additive vs subtractive.
@dendy Excellent advice as always.
I like how you explained to layer leads. Sidechaining is always a must, and I usually achieve that effect with Flux Mini 2 (I can shape the sidechain envelope). (Flux Mini 2 can also do gates!)
I'll have to try more automation. Besides filters, what do you usually automate in a track?
Send/Return tracks work well for layering imo. With them I can duplicate a wet copy of the original sound and fiddle with effects and filters until it complements the original. Then record the wet layer and save it as a loop. Rinse and repeat with different effects and return tracks until there are a bunch of those recorded layers originating from sounds that are part of the core of the track.
My workflow is basically based on this technique, kinda like a puzzle. Once I have a core skeleton of a track and recorded enough of those layers I then move on to my DAW for arrangement, where such a folder of self generated loops makes arranging a lot easier. Also saves a lot of CPU vs. automating everything.
AUM and the creative ways you can route things into returns works well for this puzzling technique, also Loopy pro where you can easily build up a stack of recorded layers per track/color and play around.
That's actually a very interesting approach to layering! I'm gonna try this out.
It depends what you mean by layering, as there are quite a few ways to go about it.
The simplest is just putting sounds together that produce a good composite sound. There are a few tips and tricks for doing this, mostly with EQ, as layering sounds can create something muddy, so a bandpass or notch on one or more of the layers can work wonders in producing a thick layered sound that still retains clarity.
Another is generally applied to guitars when they are double tracked. Record them twice and pan them pretty wide and compress each side so that you don’t hear variations in dynamics causing a ping pong effect. If that’s not thick enough or if distorted guitars have lost clarity, record two more panned tracks with a cleaner sound and layer them, but EQ both so that they don’t sit in exactly the same space and muddy things up.
Then there’s harmony, which is most effective with orchestral instruments or vocals. Stacking thirds is your friend here, but don’t overdo it - something like a pop, soul, reggae, etc. horn section actually works better in unison most of the time.
Next step is good counterpoint, but that’s a very long topic on its own.
Excellent advice both in arranging and mixing layers! These can definitely apply to Trance music and other genres.
Counterpoint is such a pain. All I remember is "no parallel fifths and octaves". But those "rules" are also meant to be broken.
From what I can hear, Jan's singing is in parallel fifths. Paul Van Dyk "broke the rules", and god what a great song!
I wonder if layering of this kind might be exactly the sort of thing Scaler EQ was designed for
it depends.. of course cutoff is first usual suspect, but trying to not limit myself.. anything which does something interesting to the sound.. envelopes amounts or even envelopes partials (attack/decay,etc), LFO amounts, LFO rates .. anything what does something interesting in context of track
No parallel fifths is such a stupid rule - if it works, it works. So much 20th and 21st century music breaks a ton of those rules, but still sounds great. Good counterpoint is really cool if you have the patience for it, and even simple stuff such as Kraftwerk just sounds so great when you hear all those melody lines intertwining.
I don’t think counterpoint is on most people’s minds though and there are some really terrible examples of artists who play really at odds with underlying chord structures. Sometimes with good results, sometimes with not so good results…
I think I do have a fairly good grasp of counterpoint, but I haven't consciously used it in a few months. Last time I made a conscious effort was when I created "The Collector's Heart", and even then I had forgotten half of the "rules" by then lol.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jo92zk81bohhxskn8nxbo/jwm-080824a-converted.m4a?rlkey=woykf2rjhmcaqybqob1lsf2y5&dl=0
Here's my attempt at layering in Trance after reading your wonderful replies and viewing a few longform tutorials on Youtube. I have five busses feeding into the master buss - foreground drums (relatively simplistic), background drums (a bit more complex), basses (a mid, a sub, and a couple background basses), foreground instruments (there's only the plucked lead for the time being), and background instruments (an arp and a high strings chord). Once I reach the breakdown where pads come swelling in, there'll most likely be a sixth buss for the pads, and a few additional instruments in the foreground instruments buss.
This is the most creative work I've done on a Trance track in a very long time (let alone any track for that matter). The original example made for 808 Day...
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/61774/jwm-the-light-amidst-the-darkness-808-day-trance-produced-in-ns2-on-iphone-mastered-with-gf2
...is very basic, lacking those layers, though I still like it well enough. Compare that to the sample demo in Dropbox, and suddenly there's more going on. 😂
Yeah, that’s definitely a fuller mix, but it still has a lot of clarity! 👍
Good.
https://on.soundcloud.com/7BrcYRG2Ffywzauu7
I think it is my best work yet to date! Just a preview for now.
Well you inspired me to write a trance tune. I’ve never been great at making trance, mostly because trance has to be exceptional to stand out from the crowd in my opinion. But, I thought well I can learn things by making a bad trance track, so I’ll give it another go.
I’m not where near ready to share it. I’ve basically wrote half of it, not mixed, panned or nothing but the tracking.
Anyway, I let my mrs hear it, she likes her techno. She likes her hard techno, she likes her cheesy techno, she likes her hard cheesy techno & if there’s a beat it better wear a hard hat.
She says it’s quite possibly the best thing I’ve done.
It will be done for next months sotmc.
I’m putting it in writing so as to have a de facto accountabilibuddy 🤣
Definitely share with me whether here or in messages. I'd like to listen after my gig and see if I can provide some feedback.
Also, I think my album may be delayed in release by no more than a week. I'm working on a vocal song that mixes early 2000s Trance with 90s House, which I had originally planned to be my final song for the album, but I think I want to do a breakbeat type of track akin to Paul Van Dyk's "Time of Our Lives", "Like a Friend", and "Vega". So no release this Saturday. No later than 6 September.
EDIT: Another great Paul Van Dyk song with a breakbeat is "Together We Will Conquer". Amazing song.