Developers Now Required to Share Phone Number & Address on EU App Store to Meet 'Trader' Requirement

caminante

Saw this article in MacRumors:
https://www.macrumors.com/2024/10/17/developers-eu-app-store-trader-requirements/

I wonder how this is going to affect the availability of iOS music apps in the EU App Store.

wim

@SevenSystems provided some insight about how onerous this is for him as a developer. The thread is around here someplace if you can find it.

Gravitas

@wim said:
@SevenSystems provided some insight about how onerous this is for him as a developer. The thread is around here someplace if you can find it.

Troll open season it is then.

Wow.

Pxlhg

Yeah that was the reason Michal Macura, the guy behind sqsl RSVP and Astral etc, removed them from the EU stores. They are back now though so I don't know what made him change his mind. (He told me this was the reason they were gone then)

wim

@Gravitas said:

@wim said:
@SevenSystems provided some insight about how onerous this is for him as a developer. The thread is around here someplace if you can find it.

Troll open season it is then.

Wow.

What? Sorry, I don't understand your comment in the slightest.
All I did was mention that @SevenSystems made a post about this some time ago.
What put you off about that? Did I troll someone? Did he?
I'm confused.

Gravitas

@wim said:

@Gravitas said:

@wim said:
@SevenSystems provided some insight about how onerous this is for him as a developer. The thread is around here someplace if you can find it.

Troll open season it is then.

Wow.

What? Sorry, I don't understand your comment in the slightest.
All I did was mention that @SevenSystems made a post about this some time ago.
What put you off about that? Did I troll someone? Did he?

Sorry that wasn't aimed at you at all.
I was to flaggergasted to provide context.

Context does help.

The point I was trying to make is that forum's and social media
have enough issues with troll's harassing online users.
When the troll's or someone with a bee in their bonnet
get's hold of the developers direct contact details then
it's safe to say that said troll's will use that info.
I haven't dealt with online security however
I look after Artists in my other life and I hear the
amount of harassment that they have to go through.
Not to long ago even I got a d!!k pic through my own social media.
I was rather taken aback.

Anyways anecdotal stories aside, it would certainly be
interesting to hear what the developers think in this regards.

wim

Ahhh. Thanks. I understand now. And yes, that was my reaction at the time too. That seems a ridiculous law.

Speaking for myself - I would simply not do it. If I was thinking of going into business as a developer I would opt out of the European market in that case. If I had an existing business and didn't want to lose the income I'd have to think pretty darn hard about it and would be mightily pissed.

gusgranite

It's a bit of a nuisance and an extra cost but aren't Po Box addresses and VOIP numbers still a thing?

Gravitas

@wim said:
Ahhh. Thanks. I understand now. And yes, that was my reaction at the time too. That seems a ridiculous law.

Same wavelength.

If you were here in person (given subject matter) you would've laughed at my sonic outburst.
"WTF" and then "Oh My God"...then incoherent mumblings.

Speaking for myself - I would simply not do it. If I was thinking of going into business as a developer I would opt out of the European market in that case. If I had an existing business and didn't want to lose the income I'd have to think pretty darn hard about it and would be mightily pissed.

I hear you.

I've been toying with the idea of going online live.
I'm always in the studio for the most part, everyday in actual fact
however that would mean I would also be open to trolls everyday.
I don't know if I'm prepared to do that with the amount that can be earnt.
My reactions to trolls are tactful for the most part I think
but if someone was harassing me whilst I was online
I already know my answers would not be tactful.
There's one thing typing a reply and another when faced with the Now.
Taking into consideration this topic in general,
developers get lambasted for somewhat petty things such as the user
"didn't read the manual" or they want a "feature" though features
can be very useful I must admit from being on beta teams,
the amount of harassment they face online and then include
their personal details into the combination
then said users could arrive at the front door.
That's crazy.
I'm not thinking about huge company developers,
many app developers are small companies and quite often one person.
One day they open their front door to some lunatic saying "can I have this feature".
Don't get me wrong if the meeting has been agreed beforehand that's cool
otherwise that's a major invasion of privacy from my perspective.
It's not a cool move by the E.U at all.

michael_m

@gusgranite said:
It's a bit of a nuisance and an extra cost but aren't Po Box addresses and VOIP numbers still a thing?

I think anyone can get a Google number and a P.O. box can be pretty cheap if you go for the smallest size.

It definitely seems like a complete bullshit law though.

wim

@michael_m said:

@gusgranite said:
It's a bit of a nuisance and an extra cost but aren't Po Box addresses and VOIP numbers still a thing?

I think anyone can get a Google number and a P.O. box can be pretty cheap if you go for the smallest size.

I think P.O. Boxes aren't acceptable if I remember the discussion correctly.

Blipsford_Baubie

@Gravitas said:
Not to long ago even I got a d!!k pic through my own social media I was rather taken aback.

But i wasn’t trolling 😉

tom_ward

@michael_m said:

@gusgranite said:
It's a bit of a nuisance and an extra cost but aren't Po Box addresses and VOIP numbers still a thing?

I think anyone can get a Google number and a P.O. box can be pretty cheap if you go for the smallest size.

It definitely seems like a complete bullshit law though.

Yes, a Google number is a huge help here. An added cost that is well worth it to abstract your real, personal phone number. P.O. Boxes are handy, but at least in the US you can't register a business with one because they can't be used for banking. I'm not sure the details of having a business and registering a form like this with a separate P.O. box address.

I've been using a 3rd-party mailing service for a few years, for both personal and business, and it is also very helpful for this type of situation. Mailing services operate actual addresses, which can be used for both banking and business registration.

Robin2

@wim said:

@michael_m said:

@gusgranite said:
It's a bit of a nuisance and an extra cost but aren't Po Box addresses and VOIP numbers still a thing?

I think anyone can get a Google number and a P.O. box can be pretty cheap if you go for the smallest size.

I think P.O. Boxes aren't acceptable if I remember the discussion correctly.

If developers with no business premises really are going to be forced to have their personal addresses published, or opt out of the EU AppStore, this seems to be a wildly misjudged policy. Gosh.

Gravitas

@Blipsford_Baubie said:

@Gravitas said:
Not to long ago even I got a d!!k pic through my own social media I was rather taken aback.

But i wasn’t trolling 😉

Lolololol

michael_m

@wim said:

@michael_m said:

@gusgranite said:
It's a bit of a nuisance and an extra cost but aren't Po Box addresses and VOIP numbers still a thing?

I think anyone can get a Google number and a P.O. box can be pretty cheap if you go for the smallest size.

I think P.O. Boxes aren't acceptable if I remember the discussion correctly.

Well that sucks. It’s hardly as if that’s an uncommon business practice (in the US at least).

Gravitas

@michael_m said:

@wim said:

@michael_m said:

@gusgranite said:
It's a bit of a nuisance and an extra cost but aren't Po Box addresses and VOIP numbers still a thing?

I think anyone can get a Google number and a P.O. box can be pretty cheap if you go for the smallest size.

I think P.O. Boxes aren't acceptable if I remember the discussion correctly.

Well that sucks. It’s hardly as if that’s an uncommon business practice (in the US at least).

It's an uncommon business practice here in the U.K I do believe.
Either you have a registered business address/es or it's your own personal address.
I don't think we can have addresses by proxy or the hoops to get one are convoluted,
hopefully someone from the U.K will chime in and correct me.

yellow_eyez

This is crazy for devs who work from home (I’m guessing most of the indie devs we love don’t have business offices);

But at least this means I can go visit Bram in person now…

But seriously : how can they doxx devs but not allow sideloading.

michael_m

@yellow_eyez said:
But seriously : how can they doxx devs but not allow sideloading.

I don’t think it’s Apple that is implementing it. Sounds like they have to comply with an existing EU law by that date.

yellow_eyez

Ahhh, Ok. Thx for that correction

@michael_m said:

@yellow_eyez said:
But seriously : how can they doxx devs but not allow sideloading.

I don’t think it’s Apple that is implementing it. Sounds like they have to comply with an existing EU law by that date.

gusgranite

@yellow_eyez said:
This is crazy for devs who work from home (I’m guessing most of the indie devs we love don’t have business offices);

But at least this means I can go visit Bram in person now…

LOL

thomasb

Apple's guidelines (https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-compliance-information/manage-european-union-digital-services-act-trader-requirements/) indicate that they will accept a PO Box or "alternate address", but you'll need to prove you own it (by e.g. having a receipt where you paid for it).

This is definitely an annoying extra expense for developers to deal with ($10/mo for Google Voice, and here in the US a PO Box is gonna be between $5 and $20 a month depending on where you live). That said, we already have CAN-SPAM in the US requiring anyone sending automated emails to stick an address on the end, so not really without precedence to have annoying requirements like this. Honestly assume that like CAN-SPAM it's gonna be pretty much unenforced anyways, other than by the providers ensuring you put something down.

tom_ward

@thomasb said:
Apple's guidelines (https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-compliance-information/manage-european-union-digital-services-act-trader-requirements/) indicate that they will accept a PO Box or "alternate address", but you'll need to prove you own it (by e.g. having a receipt where you paid for it).

This is definitely an annoying extra expense for developers to deal with ($10/mo for Google Voice, and here in the US a PO Box is gonna be between $5 and $20 a month depending on where you live). That said, we already have CAN-SPAM in the US requiring anyone sending automated emails to stick an address on the end, so not really without precedence to have annoying requirements like this. Honestly assume that like CAN-SPAM it's gonna be pretty much unenforced anyways, other than by the providers ensuring you put something down.

It is an annoying expense, and kind of illustrates how far the gap between large and small business really is. Apple's small business program extends to anyone making less than $1,000,000 per year. The divide between an average solo business and the upper end of "small business" is crazy!

AudioGus

@tom_ward said:

@thomasb said:
Apple's guidelines (https://developer.apple.com/help/app-store-connect/manage-compliance-information/manage-european-union-digital-services-act-trader-requirements/) indicate that they will accept a PO Box or "alternate address", but you'll need to prove you own it (by e.g. having a receipt where you paid for it).

This is definitely an annoying extra expense for developers to deal with ($10/mo for Google Voice, and here in the US a PO Box is gonna be between $5 and $20 a month depending on where you live). That said, we already have CAN-SPAM in the US requiring anyone sending automated emails to stick an address on the end, so not really without precedence to have annoying requirements like this. Honestly assume that like CAN-SPAM it's gonna be pretty much unenforced anyways, other than by the providers ensuring you put something down.

It is an annoying expense, and kind of illustrates how far the gap between large and small business really is. Apple's small business program extends to anyone making less than $1,000,000 per year. The divide between an average solo business and the upper end of "small business" is crazy!

Bye bye middle class!

knewspeak

Penny drops.

It’s just one small step to that brave new world.

Kewe_Esse

Just quickly scraping the listings, this pops out: https://iconoffices.co.uk/newbookingform.php

Seems to be a £45.76 option per year… Relatively cheap. I have not done due dilligence on the firm beyond trustpilot, so beware.

The extra cost is a pain! Hopefully there are more budget options out there.

sevenape

I’m not saying I’m for it, I don’t really understand so I’m asking, honestly, how is it different from me having to put my address and contact details on an invoice when I do a teaching job for example? Isn’t this an unfortunate truth of working for a living?

knewspeak

@sevenape said:
I’m not saying I’m for it, I don’t really understand so I’m asking, honestly, how is it different from me having to put my address and contact details on an invoice when I do a teaching job for example? Isn’t this an unfortunate truth of working for a living?

I don’t think your invoice details would be widely disseminated though.

SevenSystems

@knewspeak said:

@sevenape said:
I’m not saying I’m for it, I don’t really understand so I’m asking, honestly, how is it different from me having to put my address and contact details on an invoice when I do a teaching job for example? Isn’t this an unfortunate truth of working for a living?

I don’t think your invoice details would be widely disseminated though.

Exactly. Your invoices are sent specifically and manually to people you choose.

The EU however forces you to publish your home address to 8 billion random people. *

. * I'll have to investigate the feasibility of a P.O.Box yet, the public word about the legality seems to be inconclusive.

u0421793

This sort of thing will shift the landscape toward web apps

SevenSystems

@u0421793 said:
This sort of thing will shift the landscape toward web apps

You don't want to know how many legal EU hoops you have to go through in order to operate THAT 😃