Behringer is at it again

Goldiblockz

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@cyberheater said:

@waka_x said:
at that price you can get an
https://www.thomann.de/ro/asm_hydrasynth_explorer.htm
way way more advanced and adventurous and fun.
not to talk about robust devices...

Behringer has resolved the robustness.

that not entirely true with Behringer, literally their most recent synth had hardware faults.

first run of Model 15 had issues

In the last years i had an armada of system 100 modules, the 2600, pro one, DM6, RD8, couple of interfaces and still have mono/poly and the xr18 mixer. It was/is all good. Not worse than other companies (even better). I‘m not a behringer fan (their policy / mindset) but also not against owning some stuff. Screwing something up can happen to any company.

I'm not particularly knocking Behringer but they do still have quality issues.

from personal experience, an audio device i had was broken, two td3-mo's I had to replace. the original RD8 was broken, Behringer crave i had tuning was unusable and really noisy etc...

so, I'm loving the new gear they make but there are risks, both from my personal experience and from what i read.

with regards to the model 15 - there was an issue affecting the S&H function on some Model 15 units.

the old joke is wait for the MKII

Fair enough. I would never say Behringer is always flawless. Well, i just preordered. Spoke to a betatester and all good it seems. The new videos are in“enhanced“ mode it seems, much cleaner. But it has a global“original“ setting which brings all the beautiful dirt and 8bit crunch from the original.

The price is crazy. It even has single output for each voice. And even the lovely cherrytype plastic buttons and not some cheap (feeling) rubberbuttons

Are they actual mechanical switches or just membrane switches with MX caps on them? I think the RD-9 is membrane with MX caps...was the first thing that turned me off of looking at this.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Crabman

@Danny_Mammy said:

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@cyberheater said:

@waka_x said:
at that price you can get an
https://www.thomann.de/ro/asm_hydrasynth_explorer.htm
way way more advanced and adventurous and fun.
not to talk about robust devices...

Behringer has resolved the robustness.

that not entirely true with Behringer, literally their most recent synth had hardware faults.

first run of Model 15 had issues

In the last years i had an armada of system 100 modules, the 2600, pro one, DM6, RD8, couple of interfaces and still have mono/poly and the xr18 mixer. It was/is all good. Not worse than other companies (even better). I‘m not a behringer fan (their policy / mindset) but also not against owning some stuff. Screwing something up can happen to any company.

I'm not particularly knocking Behringer but they do still have quality issues.

from personal experience, an audio device i had was broken, two td3-mo's I had to replace. the original RD8 was broken, Behringer crave i had tuning was unusable and really noisy etc...

so, I'm loving the new gear they make but there are risks, both from my personal experience and from what i read.

with regards to the model 15 - there was an issue affecting the S&H function on some Model 15 units.

the old joke is wait for the MKII

Fair enough. I would never say Behringer is always flawless. Well, i just preordered. Spoke to a betatester and all good it seems. The new videos are in“enhanced“ mode it seems, much cleaner. But it has a global“original“ setting which brings all the beautiful dirt and 8bit crunch from the original.

The price is crazy. It even has single output for each voice. And even the lovely cherrytype plastic buttons and not some cheap (feeling) rubberbuttons

the price is awesome, it's a bit more in EU 649 euro but still that will soon enough become 599 euro i suspect.

i understand to keep costs down but i would have loved a poly aftertouch keyboard. i love the size of this thing and Poly Aftertouch would have made me preorder.

I ordered from T this morning. Interesting: price was 666€ without login and 639€ logged in

@Goldiblockz the betatester i asked did say they feel very similar to the cherry keyboard he uses for his emu sampler. And another guy on gearspace wrote, it‘s not the RD9 buttons. I hope this is correct

Stuntman_mike

I wonder if they’ll do a module for this one too…

Coloobar

Looks cool. I have enough wavetable synths. Now when they finally release the PolyOsc… instabuy!

knewspeak

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@cyberheater said:

@waka_x said:
at that price you can get an
https://www.thomann.de/ro/asm_hydrasynth_explorer.htm
way way more advanced and adventurous and fun.
not to talk about robust devices...

Behringer has resolved the robustness.

that not entirely true with Behringer, literally their most recent synth had hardware faults.

first run of Model 15 had issues

In the last years i had an armada of system 100 modules, the 2600, pro one, DM6, RD8, couple of interfaces and still have mono/poly and the xr18 mixer. It was/is all good. Not worse than other companies (even better). I‘m not a behringer fan (their policy / mindset) but also not against owning some stuff. Screwing something up can happen to any company.

I'm not particularly knocking Behringer but they do still have quality issues.

from personal experience, an audio device i had was broken, two td3-mo's I had to replace. the original RD8 was broken, Behringer crave i had tuning was unusable and really noisy etc...

so, I'm loving the new gear they make but there are risks, both from my personal experience and from what i read.

with regards to the model 15 - there was an issue affecting the S&H function on some Model 15 units.

the old joke is wait for the MKII

Fair enough. I would never say Behringer is always flawless. Well, i just preordered. Spoke to a betatester and all good it seems. The new videos are in“enhanced“ mode it seems, much cleaner. But it has a global“original“ setting which brings all the beautiful dirt and 8bit crunch from the original.

The price is crazy. It even has single output for each voice. And even the lovely cherrytype plastic buttons and not some cheap (feeling) rubberbuttons

the price is awesome, it's a bit more in EU 649 euro but still that will soon enough become 599 euro i suspect.

i understand to keep costs down but i would have loved a poly aftertouch keyboard. i love the size of this thing and Poly Aftertouch would have made me preorder.

I ordered from T this morning. Interesting: price was 666€ without login and 639€ logged in

@Goldiblockz the betatester i asked did say they feel very similar to the cherry keyboard he uses for his emu sampler. And another guy on gearspace wrote, it‘s not the RD9 buttons. I hope this is correct

Thanks for the reminder it wasn’t listed when I checked, not quite a Waveterm but with user wavetables not bad.

cyberheater

@Danny_Mammy said:

@cyberheater said:

@waka_x said:
at that price you can get an
https://www.thomann.de/ro/asm_hydrasynth_explorer.htm
way way more advanced and adventurous and fun.
not to talk about robust devices...

Behringer has resolved the robustness.

that not entirely true with Behringer, literally their most recent synth had hardware faults.

first run of Model 15 had issues

I came across a video today where someone had bought 3 Behringer rack synths and they said two of the was great but the Model 15 build quality was poor. I wonder what’s going on there? A different design team maybe?

knewspeak

@cyberheater said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@cyberheater said:

@waka_x said:
at that price you can get an
https://www.thomann.de/ro/asm_hydrasynth_explorer.htm
way way more advanced and adventurous and fun.
not to talk about robust devices...

Behringer has resolved the robustness.

that not entirely true with Behringer, literally their most recent synth had hardware faults.

first run of Model 15 had issues

I came across a video today where someone had bought 3 Behringer rack synths and they said two of the was great but the Model 15 build quality was poor. I wonder what’s going on there? A different design team maybe?

Probably given the size of Behringer city in China.

cyberheater

CRAKROX

@cyberheater said:

I’m buying this as soon as it’s available, should sound good paired with my RD-8mkii !

cyberheater

Another belter

jonmoore

@Svetlovska said:

It was the future once. The PPG was up there with the Emulator and Fairlight as unreachably expensive icons of 80s synth music. Not sure the sound is as startling now as it once was though, or maybe it’s just me getting jaded… Plus, being Behringer, I might have died before it actually comes out. The only ‘icon clone’ of theirs I actually want is the VCS3, (oh, ok, and the CR78) and there’s still no sign of either of them...

And it still is The Phuture as far as I'm concerned - namely the 3rd WAVE desktop module, beside my 16 voice PROPHET REV2. It'll be interesting to see if Behringer are going to be influenced by the 3rd WAVE as well as the PPG, which incidently was my first grown up poly-synth. Picked it up around 1990 (ish) for less than £200. Hence, me jumping at the chance to nab a 3rd WAVE, once the desktop module made it a more affordable option (still bloody expensive, but no longer close to the £5k asking price of the keyboard variant).

I'll probably pick up the Behringer too if it delivers on it's early promise.

jonmoore

@cyberheater said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@cyberheater said:

@waka_x said:
at that price you can get an
https://www.thomann.de/ro/asm_hydrasynth_explorer.htm
way way more advanced and adventurous and fun.
not to talk about robust devices...

Behringer has resolved the robustness.

that not entirely true with Behringer, literally their most recent synth had hardware faults.

first run of Model 15 had issues

I came across a video today where someone had bought 3 Behringer rack synths and they said two of the was great but the Model 15 build quality was poor. I wonder what’s going on there? A different design team maybe?

I have a Model 15 and the build quality is great. Not as good as the 2600, but still decent. With the latest firmware and fixed S&H it sounds just as creamy as the Moog Grandmother, and goes beyond it in many ways.

jonmoore

@MistaG said:

Behringer has resolved the robustness.

that not entirely true with Behringer, literally their most recent synth had hardware faults.

first run of Model 15 had issues

I’m looking to buy one of these, I think it was fixed with a firmware update but does anyone know for sure?

See above. My Model 15 was delivered in November and the issues in the initial batch has been resolved (at least for me).

Edward_Alexander

@cyberheater said:
Another belter

Ooh nice! A Linn Drum that I actually might be able to afford. Looks like a fun piece of kit!

Stuntman_mike

@Edward_Alexander said:

@cyberheater said:
Another belter

Ooh nice! A Linn Drum that I actually might be able to afford. Looks like a fun piece of kit!

Only $400 🥰

Edward_Alexander

@Stuntman_mike said:

@Edward_Alexander said:

@cyberheater said:
Another belter

Ooh nice! A Linn Drum that I actually might be able to afford. Looks like a fun piece of kit!

Only $400 🥰

Heck yeah! Not bad compared to the real LinnDrum which are usually in the $4000+ range second hand. And that’s for the average (fair) condition units.

I just noticed that little screen looks like the same exact screen on my Deepmind 12.

Stuntman_mike

@Edward_Alexander said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@Edward_Alexander said:

@cyberheater said:
Another belter

Ooh nice! A Linn Drum that I actually might be able to afford. Looks like a fun piece of kit!

Only $400 🥰

Heck yeah! Not bad compared to the real LinnDrum which are usually in the $4000+ range second hand. And that’s for the average (fair) condition units.

I just noticed that little screen looks like the same exact screen on my Deepmind 12.

Exactly, and the Behringer version is a sampler as well!

jonmoore

@Edward_Alexander said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@Edward_Alexander said:

@cyberheater said:
Another belter

Ooh nice! A Linn Drum that I actually might be able to afford. Looks like a fun piece of kit!

Only $400 🥰

Heck yeah! Not bad compared to the real LinnDrum which are usually in the $4000+ range second hand. And that’s for the average (fair) condition units.

I just noticed that little screen looks like the same exact screen on my Deepmind 12.

For what it's worth, GForce released a plugin version of the LinnDrum today. Available for the princely sum of £25. They did a great job with their officially sanctioned version of the Oberheim DMX so I purchased it blind and wasn't disappointed.

They manage to make their recreations of these classics so much more than a bunch of samples - which lets be honest, most of us already have, in multiple guises.

https://www.gforcesoftware.com/blog/introducing-the-icondrum-by-gforce-software-a-tribute-to-a-legendary-drum-machine-that-shaped-the-sound-of-the-80s/

MistaG

@jonmoore ssid:
I have a Model 15 and the build quality is great. Not as good as the 2600, but still decent. With the latest firmware and fixed S&H it sounds just as creamy as the Moog Grandmother, and goes beyond it in many ways.

@jonmoore
See above. My Model 15 was delivered in November and the issues in the initial batch has been resolved (at least for me).

Thank you, I’m gonna pull the trigger

cyberheater

If I'm still into hardware when the Behringer LinnDrum ships I'll pick one up. Seems like it's got a great feature set.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

cyberheater

@Danny_Mammy said:
would be unfair to expect too much be honest but i love to see some decent sample memory on the drum machine.

Apparently 8 minutes worth of sampling memory at 12 bits/24 Khz.

rs2000

@Goldiblockz said:

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@Crabman said:

@Danny_Mammy said:

@cyberheater said:

@waka_x said:
at that price you can get an
https://www.thomann.de/ro/asm_hydrasynth_explorer.htm
way way more advanced and adventurous and fun.
not to talk about robust devices...

Behringer has resolved the robustness.

that not entirely true with Behringer, literally their most recent synth had hardware faults.

first run of Model 15 had issues

In the last years i had an armada of system 100 modules, the 2600, pro one, DM6, RD8, couple of interfaces and still have mono/poly and the xr18 mixer. It was/is all good. Not worse than other companies (even better). I‘m not a behringer fan (their policy / mindset) but also not against owning some stuff. Screwing something up can happen to any company.

I'm not particularly knocking Behringer but they do still have quality issues.

from personal experience, an audio device i had was broken, two td3-mo's I had to replace. the original RD8 was broken, Behringer crave i had tuning was unusable and really noisy etc...

so, I'm loving the new gear they make but there are risks, both from my personal experience and from what i read.

with regards to the model 15 - there was an issue affecting the S&H function on some Model 15 units.

the old joke is wait for the MKII

Fair enough. I would never say Behringer is always flawless. Well, i just preordered. Spoke to a betatester and all good it seems. The new videos are in“enhanced“ mode it seems, much cleaner. But it has a global“original“ setting which brings all the beautiful dirt and 8bit crunch from the original.

The price is crazy. It even has single output for each voice. And even the lovely cherrytype plastic buttons and not some cheap (feeling) rubberbuttons

Are they actual mechanical switches or just membrane switches with MX caps on them? I think the RD-9 is membrane with MX caps...was the first thing that turned me off of looking at this.

I love the buttons on the original Wave 2.3, it was part of the great hardware feeling and it's a bummer they didn't use them again. But you can't have everything, especially not at this price I guess.

Edward_Alexander

@jonmoore said:

@Edward_Alexander said:

@Stuntman_mike said:

@Edward_Alexander said:

@cyberheater said:
Another belter

Ooh nice! A Linn Drum that I actually might be able to afford. Looks like a fun piece of kit!

Only $400 🥰

Heck yeah! Not bad compared to the real LinnDrum which are usually in the $4000+ range second hand. And that’s for the average (fair) condition units.

I just noticed that little screen looks like the same exact screen on my Deepmind 12.

For what it's worth, GForce released a plugin version of the LinnDrum today. Available for the princely sum of £25. They did a great job with their officially sanctioned version of the Oberheim DMX so I purchased it blind and wasn't disappointed.

They manage to make their recreations of these classics so much more than a bunch of samples - which lets be honest, most of us already have, in multiple guises.

https://www.gforcesoftware.com/blog/introducing-the-icondrum-by-gforce-software-a-tribute-to-a-legendary-drum-machine-that-shaped-the-sound-of-the-80s/

Cool! If I was still using a desktop/laptop, I’d be all over this!

Thanks for sharing the link. 🙂

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

NeuM

@Danny_Mammy said:
Interesting statement from Roger Linn on the Behringer LmDrum

• Roger Linn LmDrum Statement

In December 2024, Behringer released their “LmDrum”, which is described on their site as:

“If you are looking for a drum machine that can recreate the classic sound of the 80’s, look no further than the Behringer LM DRUM. This amazing drum machine features an authentic 8/12-bit sampling sound engine that captures the essence of a hundred legendary 80’s drum sounds including those designed by Roger Linn such as the LM1*, LM2*, LM9000* and more. You can even record and store your own samples using the integrated line input.”

Uli Behringer kindly sent me an LmDrum in August of 2024, giving me a chance to try it out. What do I think? I think it’s a big of a head-scratcher. It is clearly intended to evoke my 1982 “LinnDrum” drum machine, borrowing its visual style, control layout, colors and logo style, as well as copying its sounds and those of my LM-1 and Linn9000 drum machines. I took it apart and it even copies much of my LinnDrum sound generation circuit, even my bad ideas like the inability to tune any drums except the snare, toms and congas.

However, it uses an entirely different operating system and user interface, one that is based on earlier Behinger drum machines. Personally, I found it somewhat confusing and difficult to use, though I was given an unfinished manual. I’d imagine they will improve both the software and manual over time. I suspect the designers found it difficult to find a balance between 1) the impression of a LinnDrum clone, and 2) the addition of modern features, given that the 1982 LinnDrum’s feature set is woefully inadequate by today’s standards.

It’s worth noting that Uli never asked my permission to either copy my visual design or my drum sounds. Though in 2020, he did kindly invite me to collaborate on a future drum machine, and I respectfully declined because of concern about Behringer’s past business ethics and legal practices.

How do I feel about the LmDrum? My feelings are mixed. On the one hand, it’s not unusual for companies to borrow ideas from older products in order to inspire a new and innovative design, which I’ve done in past. Plus, my old drum sounds are all over the web, controlling copying is difficult, and I don’t enjoy legal stuff so I’ve generally ignored the issue so far. Also, the value in those old sounds is probably due more to Art Wood (the drummer who played the sounds, and my friend of many years), and to artists like Prince, Michael Jackson, and others, who made those sounds famous on their hits. Finally, I must admit that I’ve never cared much about the past, because I find the future far more exciting.

On the other hand, even if we discount the copying of the visual design, logo style and sound circuit of LinnDrum, the LmDrum copies my sounds. So I’d have preferred for Uli to ask my permission. Even if he thinks it is legal, I question whether it is ethical.

I find it interesting that the LmDrum is being sold in the U.S. for only $399. Having taken it apart and seeing how complex the copied old circuitry was to reproduce, I doubt Behringer is making any money from it. I suspect that they originally intended to sell it for much more, then discovered that while many people may say they want a LinnDrum clone, few are willing to pay more than a low price for it.

“On a related topic, GForce Software has recently released their “IconDrum” software drum sound generator. Like the LmDrum, it copies the LinnDrum’s visual design, logo style, and drum sounds, but has no sequencing. Unlike Behringer, GForce did say they wouldn’t release the product if I objected, but they seemed like good people so I turned a blind eye. They also offered to pay me an insignificant royalty for my association with the product and perhaps to use “LinnDrum” name, but I declined because of the low compensation and because I thought it was misleading to call a product “LinnDrum” that wasn’t a drum machine but rather only played my copied drum sounds.”

One last comment. What’s the big deal about nostalgia? I can understand that some people value analog synthesis, though I find the many types of innovative software synthesis created in recent decades to be far more capable, versatile and interesting. But even if people value vintage analog synths, why vintage digital drum machines? I ask this because an old bit is no different than a new bit.

If Roger had a good lawyer, I think he could sue all of these companies for millions in copyright infringement (including trade dress) and other damages.

Coloobar

@NeuM said:

If Roger had a good lawyer, I think he could sue all of these companies for millions in copyright infringement (including trade dress) and other damages.

Behringer is hitting all of these synth models as they come off patent. There's no enforceable copyright. I for one can't wait for the release of the PolyOSC.

cyberheater

@NeuM said:

@Danny_Mammy said:
Interesting statement from Roger Linn on the Behringer LmDrum

• Roger Linn LmDrum Statement

In December 2024, Behringer released their “LmDrum”, which is described on their site as:

“If you are looking for a drum machine that can recreate the classic sound of the 80’s, look no further than the Behringer LM DRUM. This amazing drum machine features an authentic 8/12-bit sampling sound engine that captures the essence of a hundred legendary 80’s drum sounds including those designed by Roger Linn such as the LM1*, LM2*, LM9000* and more. You can even record and store your own samples using the integrated line input.”

Uli Behringer kindly sent me an LmDrum in August of 2024, giving me a chance to try it out. What do I think? I think it’s a big of a head-scratcher. It is clearly intended to evoke my 1982 “LinnDrum” drum machine, borrowing its visual style, control layout, colors and logo style, as well as copying its sounds and those of my LM-1 and Linn9000 drum machines. I took it apart and it even copies much of my LinnDrum sound generation circuit, even my bad ideas like the inability to tune any drums except the snare, toms and congas.

However, it uses an entirely different operating system and user interface, one that is based on earlier Behinger drum machines. Personally, I found it somewhat confusing and difficult to use, though I was given an unfinished manual. I’d imagine they will improve both the software and manual over time. I suspect the designers found it difficult to find a balance between 1) the impression of a LinnDrum clone, and 2) the addition of modern features, given that the 1982 LinnDrum’s feature set is woefully inadequate by today’s standards.

It’s worth noting that Uli never asked my permission to either copy my visual design or my drum sounds. Though in 2020, he did kindly invite me to collaborate on a future drum machine, and I respectfully declined because of concern about Behringer’s past business ethics and legal practices.

How do I feel about the LmDrum? My feelings are mixed. On the one hand, it’s not unusual for companies to borrow ideas from older products in order to inspire a new and innovative design, which I’ve done in past. Plus, my old drum sounds are all over the web, controlling copying is difficult, and I don’t enjoy legal stuff so I’ve generally ignored the issue so far. Also, the value in those old sounds is probably due more to Art Wood (the drummer who played the sounds, and my friend of many years), and to artists like Prince, Michael Jackson, and others, who made those sounds famous on their hits. Finally, I must admit that I’ve never cared much about the past, because I find the future far more exciting.

On the other hand, even if we discount the copying of the visual design, logo style and sound circuit of LinnDrum, the LmDrum copies my sounds. So I’d have preferred for Uli to ask my permission. Even if he thinks it is legal, I question whether it is ethical.

I find it interesting that the LmDrum is being sold in the U.S. for only $399. Having taken it apart and seeing how complex the copied old circuitry was to reproduce, I doubt Behringer is making any money from it. I suspect that they originally intended to sell it for much more, then discovered that while many people may say they want a LinnDrum clone, few are willing to pay more than a low price for it.

“On a related topic, GForce Software has recently released their “IconDrum” software drum sound generator. Like the LmDrum, it copies the LinnDrum’s visual design, logo style, and drum sounds, but has no sequencing. Unlike Behringer, GForce did say they wouldn’t release the product if I objected, but they seemed like good people so I turned a blind eye. They also offered to pay me an insignificant royalty for my association with the product and perhaps to use “LinnDrum” name, but I declined because of the low compensation and because I thought it was misleading to call a product “LinnDrum” that wasn’t a drum machine but rather only played my copied drum sounds.”

One last comment. What’s the big deal about nostalgia? I can understand that some people value analog synthesis, though I find the many types of innovative software synthesis created in recent decades to be far more capable, versatile and interesting. But even if people value vintage analog synths, why vintage digital drum machines? I ask this because an old bit is no different than a new bit.

If Roger had a good lawyer, I think he could sue all of these companies for millions in copyright infringement (including trade dress) and other damages.

It’s funny that no one blinks an eye at the countless Fender and Gibson guitar clones.