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FAC Envolver and Lumbeat drummer
I’d like to buy FAC Envolver and use it to control the Intensity parameter in the Lumbeat drummer app, but I’m not sure if it will work. I'm trying to mimic the behaviour that Rayzoon Jamstix4 is able to do, i.e. adjust the intensity of the drums based on the intensity of the input audio (guitar, keys).
My idea is that in Envolver, it would be possible to define the lowest and highest intensity values between which I’d like to operate. When I play softly (or not at all), the intensity value would never drop below the minimum set threshold, and conversely, when I play louder, it wouldn’t exceed the maximum set threshold. And ideally I would like to control the shape of the curve on which the CC values sent will depend.
Can the FAC Envolver be set up to make it all work? If so, can you advise how, please?
Comments
Good question. Have you checked whether your Lumbeat app will let you control the intensity by a CC?
Yes, by CC 2.
And it would be absolutely amazing if it would be possible to switch cross/snare with the Envolver, e.g. up to intensity 30 to have cross and above this value to have snare.
OR even better - do toggle of Cross/Snare and HiHats/Ride with 2 different thresholds in Envolver?
Edit: Please disregard - misread the original post
It definitely works. I've used 4Pockets Surface Builder sliders inside of AUM to control all of the parameters in Lumbeat Jazz Drummer, and tested a few parameters on the others. I built a spreadsheet (screenshot below) so that I could keep track of the behavior of each setting. Which Lumbeat drummer are you using? It looks like Reggae Drummer from the colors, so I tested that out and it works but it seems that CC2 controls Jam Intensity and CC1 controls Jam Effects for me, unless I made a mistake.
This is from testing Jazz and Brazilian Drummer (with a couple notes for Reggae Drummer added):
@filo01 : it sounds like what you want may also require mozaic or streambyter to handle the logic
@EdZAB My screens are from Funk Drummer and thanks to @espiegel123 Loopy Lumbeat template I already know that sending of CC1-2 works. What I don't know whether it would be possible to fire them from Envolver in the way I described above.
From the Envolver manual "The generated signal envelope also passes through a gate detection mechanism driven by a threshold. When the signal goes above the threshold, the gate is open and when the signal goes below, the gate is closed. This open/close sequence provides a second envelope which is delivered as MIDI CC (on/off) and notes".
So I assume if audio signal rises above threshold then Envolver will send a note I want (Eb2 Cross-Snare) and then, when the audio signal falls below the threshold, the Envolver sends the next note (Eb2 Snare->Cross).
Am I right?
Hold my beer.
I'll make some tests...
The way it works is that when it rises above the threshold the note is sent with velocity 127 and when it falls below the same note is sent with velocity 0.
I think FAC plus a simple script will work well for what you want. Doing it without a script might be possible but would be trickier I thiink.
Ed, I did a simple test with your Loopy template - I pressed "Toggle cross/snare" button twice and look what is happened - LP sent note on+note off for first click/tap and note on+note off for second click/tap as well.
I found a few things, but I'm not sure I understand the desired dynamics completely. The cross-stick note will work I think. I think intensity threshold might need a helper script.
Envolver triggers a CC envelope when the signal goes over the threshold. The envelope rises and falls like an AR envelope. So, it's going to be firing when transients exceed the threshold, but it's not going to send just a sustained CC value based on an average loudness. It's going to send values raising to a maximum from zero, then falling back gradually to zero. I don't think that's what you're after.
I think you're going to need a helper script to keep a running average of those CC value peaks and calculate a periodically updating CC value to output.
I'm not an Envolver expert, so I guess there could be some functionality I'm overlooking, but that's my basic understanding.
That is what is supposed to happen. A note consists of a note on and note off. Pressing the button sends a complete note (note on then a note off). The Lumbeats apps toggle the current setting each time a note is received.
Is it not toggling the snare? (Note that not all of the drummers have both toggles).
@espiegel123 Yes, it is toggling as it should. Now I realize it has nothing to do with my problem.
@wim Thank you for your findings.
So when the threshold is achieved then Envolver send CC message with zero value? If yes then this is easily solvable by MIDI Curve app I guess?
I’m quite sure it could be done without a script as well, for instance Drambo doing rms level calculation for a certain time length and S&H to peek into this at regular intervals.
No. It sends a stream of values that rise from some amount up to 127 and then fall back to that on each transient. The rate of ramp up and fall off is configurable to, but it's still a stream of values and it's still going to be firing off all the time as you play transients.
If I understand what you need correctly, I think you need something to average those ever fluctuating values out.
Maybe the screenshot below will help explain the kind of output you'll be getting from Envolver.
I think a script would need to keep a running average of the values coming from Envolver, then output that average as a CC value. I'm kind of in the mood to write such a thing, but am not sure I understand what you're after well enough to know if this is even what you need.
Sure, but drambo is a bit higher overhead than a small streambyter or Mozaic script. I know Drambo is very efficient, but it does add noticeable overhead just by being added to a project in my experience.
Net-net since with Drambo you could avoid Envolver, the hit might be comparable though. It would also have a higher geek rating, and annoy the people who hate having Drambo appear in every thread to boot. So there is that. 😎
Thank you @wim. My goal is to get the drummer to respond to the intensity of the input audio signal (guitar) by increasing or decreasing the value of the "Jam intensity" parameter (CC2). I once asked here if the Nembrini wah pedal could be controlled by the Envolver based on the volume of the guitar, and the answer was yes. This is similar, but I would use the Envolver to control the Jam intensity parameter in the drummer. I thought that if I set the Fall value to 1s-2s, it would be enough time to keep the Jam intensity high until the next audio signal comes in.
In the meantime I realized that there is maybe a simpler solution - avoid sending CC and send note message for switching Cross/Snare at one (lower) threshold and Hat/Ride note at second (higher) threshold.
Yeh, that bit I get. But I'm not sure I've explained sufficiently how Envolver would affect that intensity and why averaging is needed. I'm not sure how to put it in a way that makes sense. Basically, you'll see the intensity fluctuating all over the place, not adjusting according to overall intensity of your playing.
Cycling a WAH pedal is a very different scenario, and one perfectly suited to Envolver.
That may work with Envolver. But it's still going fire on transients (peaks) more than it is going to switch in and out based on overall dynamics. You could be playing a quiet passage but hit one loud note and have it trigger the cross / snare.
Fluctuating? Immediately after rise a peak? Does it not hold over time according to the value of the fall?
Ah, OK, good point. I thought it will be fired just once when exceeds or falls below the threshold, which is not true.
It doesn't hold steady. It falls at an adjustable rate. The fall is limited to about 2 seconds, I believe.
Well, that's what it does. But when it's fired is based on an instantaneous crossing of the threshold. Maybe with ambient soundscapes or metal that would work out, but most music has lot of peaks and dips. Notes will be firing on and off all the time unless there's very little volume change.
@wim @filo01 : if you turn on note, note on is sent when the threshold is crossed and note off when it falls below the threshold. I don’t know if you can make use of that. The cc follows the level and the note acts like a gate trigger
Lol, I got a chuckle. Funny because it’s true.
Yes, I did test that. The problem I see is peaks and low points are going to continually trigger the notes unless the incoming signal has little volume fluctuation.
I think this is worth figuring out. It would be a useful companion for the Lumbeats apps.
Agreed it would be useful.
If you were to do it the Drambo route then I think ideas from this thread would make sense. Using CMP output from a compressor in RMS mode.
https://forum.beepstreet.com/discussion/1376/how-to-create-gain-compensation-utility
ooooh. I think I have the bones of a Mozaic script that may work for this.
It will need a lot more testing when I'm fresh tomorrow though.
Thank you @wim for your time. I've tried to use ChatGPT with simple task like "extend 2s Fall value to 5s and fall to specified minimum value, not to zero". But ChatGPT just pretends to know Mozaic syntax. I gave up after 20 minutes of waffling.
OK, I've made a first version of Mozaic script. Switching from Visual Studio to Mozaic "editor" was a real pain
It works but definitely needs some polishing. What I found is, that if I switch manually snare to cross and then increase Jam Intensity to max (where Ride is activated) then snare remains persistent when Jam intensity is returned to low level.
