Virtual Keyboards with velocity/pressure & aftertouch

hsi_tv

Just learned about MusiKraken, a virtual controller. Which leads me to the question, are there any virtual controllers with velocity/pressure & aftertouch? Does MusiKraken have it?

Procreate, a drawing app, has pressure sensitivity. The harder you press, the darker the brush stroke. So the ability is there.

In my experience, the virtual synths I've used aren't responsive to pressure, at least not that I've noticed. I feel like by now all virtual keyboards should have some sort of velocity detection and aftertouch.

hsi_tv

• applies to drum pads as well

wim

That's not as straightforward as it seems. There is no pressure sensitivity on Apple devices except for the rare few iPhone models that had 3D Touch some time back, or with the Apple Pencil. Procreate's pressure sensitivity only works with the Apple Pencil, not fingers.

A few apps use the width of the finger contact to simulate pressure sensitivity - the idea being, the harder you press, the wider the skin contact. Some people say it works pretty well, others not so much. Velocity Keyboard has this. I don't know of any others.

Most apps use position on the keys or pads for velocity and aftertouch because not only is simulating pressure sensitivity difficult, but most developers seem to be skeptical that it will work well. They probably don't much picture people poking in keyboard notes with the Apple Pen, though I guess some people might do just that.

hsi_tv

They got rid of 3D touch? Well that's too bad

wim

Apparently Logic and GarageBand use a combination of finger width detection and accelerometer to simulate pressure. Never used it so I can't say how well it works. But knowing Apple as far as ergonomics go, I bet it isn't half-bad.

Anyway, the point is - it ain't easy.

espiegel123

@hsi_tv said:
They got rid of 3D touch? Well that's too bad

I think the iPhone XS was the last 3D Touch iPhone.

wim

@hsi_tv said:
They got rid of 3D touch? Well that's too bad

Only a few devices ever had it.
Apple iPhone 6S.
Apple iPhone 6S Plus.
Apple iPhone 7.
Apple iPhone 7 Plus.
Apple iPhone 8.
Apple iPhone 8 Plus.
Apple iPhone X.
Apple iPhone XS.

Dav

Although not keyboard, Drums by Asrodot also does the finger-width to simulate pressure thing like @wim mentioned. It’s IAA only, but I can assign it to an instrument in AUM and play it with that drum app (which is like one big drum pad). I have velocity keyboard and it does do the same.

NeuM

Apple's own on-screen keyboards in GarageBand and some of the Apple drum kits have very good impact variability sensing. I don't know about aftertouch, though.

PapaBPoppin

[please disregard any mention of GeoShred]

Both Velocity Keyboard and GeoShred have options to turn on the faux velocity mentioned above (using a combo of mashing of flesh on initial impact along with the gyro)

It's hit-and-miss. Sometimes I have great plays, other times I can't hit proper velocity to save my skin - I've read to use it on a pillow or folded sweatshirt (rather than hard table or lap) to aid in more consistent readings, but again, ymmv

The iFretless series of apps also use it, but they are more dedicated to their respective included instruments (tho they can be used as controllers if you really like the feel) - iFretless is made by the folks behind Velocity Keyboard, so I figure it's the same skeleton with different skins (but I was using iFretless before I discovered VKb, so it's a wash)

Both VKb and GeoShred also have an aftertouch option that uses flesh mass after initial hit. So press harder, more finger spreads, works as aftertouch

espiegel123

@PapaBPoppin said:
Both Velocity Keyboard and GeoShred have options to turn on the faux velocity mentioned above (using a combo of mashing of flesh on initial impact along with the gyro)

It's hit-and-miss. Sometimes I have great plays, other times I can't hit proper velocity to save my skin - I've read to use it on a pillow or folded sweatshirt (rather than hard table or lap), but again, ymmv

The iFretless series of apps also use it, but they are more dedicated to their respective included instruments (tho they can be used as controllers if you really like the feel) - iFretless is made by the folks behind Velocity Keyboard, so I figure it's the same skeleton with different skins (but I was using iFretless before I discovered VKb, so it's a wash)

Both VKb and GeoShred also have an aftertouch option that uses flesh mass after initial hit. So press harder, more finger spreads, works as aftertouch

My understanding is that GeoShred doesn’t use pressure or gyro for faux velocity. It uses finger position within the note cell.

wim

@PapaBPoppin said:
Both Velocity Keyboard and GeoShred have options to turn on the faux velocity mentioned above (using a combo of mashing of flesh on initial impact along with the gyro)

It's hit-and-miss. Sometimes I have great plays, other times I can't hit proper velocity to save my skin - I've read to use it on a pillow or folded sweatshirt (rather than hard table or lap) to aid in more consistent readings, but again, ymmv

The iFretless series of apps also use it, but they are more dedicated to their respective included instruments (tho they can be used as controllers if you really like the feel) - iFretless is made by the folks behind Velocity Keyboard, so I figure it's the same skeleton with different skins (but I was using iFretless before I discovered VKb, so it's a wash)

Both VKb and GeoShred also have an aftertouch option that uses flesh mass after initial hit. So press harder, more finger spreads, works as aftertouch

I are you sure this is correct regarding GeoShred? I only see the option for key Y position for velocity on non-3D Touch enabled devices.

Enable/Disable Key Y Touch [PRO][Studio][Control]

For devices that don't support 3D touch, velocity can be set with the Key Y position. Typically the bottom of the key is low velocity and the top is high velocity. This behavior can be modified with the Key Y Velocity Curve.

Key Y Velocity

This menu item provides an editable "Curve" for configuring Key Y Touch behavior for velocity. Key Y velocity is passed to MIDI as Note On velocity.

McD

I think we might need “10-Pencil Gloves” to add this extra feature… of course, Apple would need to add “Multi-pencil” to an upcoming IOS release. The gloves of course would cost well over $1000 and wouldn’t work worth a damn and then they could
deprecate the feature and re-focus on a “VR Helmet with Piano Mode”.

PapaBPoppin

@espiegel123 said:

@PapaBPoppin said:
Both Velocity Keyboard and GeoShred have options to turn on the faux velocity mentioned above (using a combo of mashing of flesh on initial impact along with the gyro)

It's hit-and-miss. Sometimes I have great plays, other times I can't hit proper velocity to save my skin - I've read to use it on a pillow or folded sweatshirt (rather than hard table or lap), but again, ymmv

The iFretless series of apps also use it, but they are more dedicated to their respective included instruments (tho they can be used as controllers if you really like the feel) - iFretless is made by the folks behind Velocity Keyboard, so I figure it's the same skeleton with different skins (but I was using iFretless before I discovered VKb, so it's a wash)

Both VKb and GeoShred also have an aftertouch option that uses flesh mass after initial hit. So press harder, more finger spreads, works as aftertouch

My understanding is that GeoShred doesn’t use pressure or gyro for faux velocity. It uses finger position within the note cell.

@wim said:

@PapaBPoppin said:
Both Velocity Keyboard and GeoShred have options to turn on the faux velocity mentioned above (using a combo of mashing of flesh on initial impact along with the gyro)

It's hit-and-miss. Sometimes I have great plays, other times I can't hit proper velocity to save my skin - I've read to use it on a pillow or folded sweatshirt (rather than hard table or lap) to aid in more consistent readings, but again, ymmv

The iFretless series of apps also use it, but they are more dedicated to their respective included instruments (tho they can be used as controllers if you really like the feel) - iFretless is made by the folks behind Velocity Keyboard, so I figure it's the same skeleton with different skins (but I was using iFretless before I discovered VKb, so it's a wash)

Both VKb and GeoShred also have an aftertouch option that uses flesh mass after initial hit. So press harder, more finger spreads, works as aftertouch

I are you sure this is correct regarding GeoShred? I only see the option for key Y position for velocity on non-3D Touch enabled devices.

Enable/Disable Key Y Touch [PRO][Studio][Control]

For devices that don't support 3D touch, velocity can be set with the Key Y position. Typically the bottom of the key is low velocity and the top is high velocity. This behavior can be modified with the Key Y Velocity Curve.

Key Y Velocity

This menu item provides an editable "Curve" for configuring Key Y Touch behavior for velocity. Key Y velocity is passed to MIDI as Note On velocity.

You are both correct. Editing previous post

I've been using GeoShred pretty solid over the past couple months a coulda sworn id read the option for it, but just kinda let it lay since I really like their default controls. My apoligies

(Coming from VKb, I really didn't think another control surface style would click for me like GeoShred did)

[Edit: saw the email notif from both wim and ed, so either I nailed it on the head, or I was waaaay off 🤣🤣]

PapaBPoppin

@McD said:
I think we might need “10-Pencil Gloves” to add this extra feature… of course, Apple would need to add “Multi-pencil” to an upcoming IOS release. The gloves of course would cost well over $1000 and wouldn’t work worth a damn and then they could
deprecate the feature and re-focus on a “VR Helmet with Piano Mode”.

They would need an additional five points of pressure to make the gloves fully functional. Add an additional $500 to the cost

So sadly, we will never see the iPen15 Gloves 😓

aaa

@wim said:
A few apps use the width of the finger contact to simulate pressure sensitivity - the idea being, the harder you press, the wider the skin contact. Some people say it works pretty well, others not so much.

Some of the most iconic hardware synthesizer keyboards work on this same principle. Notably the Buchla 218 touch capacitive keyboard, which inspired various modern designs such as Arturia's Microfreak and plenty of Eurorack modules (ie. Make Noise's "Pressure Points" module).

wim

@aaa said:

@wim said:
A few apps use the width of the finger contact to simulate pressure sensitivity - the idea being, the harder you press, the wider the skin contact. Some people say it works pretty well, others not so much.

Some of the most iconic hardware synthesizer keyboards work on this same principle. Notably the Buchla 218 touch capacitive keyboard, which inspired various modern designs such as Arturia's Microfreak and plenty of Eurorack modules (ie. Make Noise's "Pressure Points" module).

It’s harder to do in software though. The touch screen capacitance doesn’t increase as you press harder. The relative size of the touch surface has to be measured, and a guess made as to what velocity to assign based on that.

carterluke

Yeah, MusiKraken does support velocity and aftertouch. Pressure sensitivity depends on the device you're using with it, though. For example, on an iPad with a good stylus or a touch surface that can detect pressure, you’ll get that functionality. But honestly, virtual controllers with proper velocity and aftertouch are still rare. Most apps focus more on ease of use than depth like this.

It’s weird because you'd expect it to be standard by now, especially for people working on expressive synth performances. I think apps like GeoShred are a bit ahead in this area, but even they can feel limited compared to physical hardware. Virtual keyboards have a lot of catching up to do if they want to truly compete with MIDI controllers.

wim

@carterluke said:
Yeah, MusiKraken does support velocity and aftertouch. Pressure sensitivity depends on the device you're using with it, though. For example, on an iPad with a good stylus or a touch surface that can detect pressure, you’ll get that functionality. But honestly, virtual controllers with proper velocity and aftertouch are still rare. Most apps focus more on ease of use than depth like this.

It’s weird because you'd expect it to be standard by now, especially for people working on expressive synth performances. I think apps like GeoShred are a bit ahead in this area, but even they can feel limited compared to physical hardware. Virtual keyboards have a lot of catching up to do if they want to truly compete with MIDI controllers.

It’s not a software issue. The problem is except for a few discontinued iPhone models, the sensing capability isn’t really there. It has to be faked. It’s not easy to do and especially not easy to do well.

I don’t find that weird at all. Making a glass surface the size of a iPad, that can measure pressure and is still durable enough for a mobile device and isn’t prohibitively expensive hasn’t proved to be practical yet.

And even if it was practical, most people would probably still prefer a controller with a more haptic surface than a slick pane of glass. It isn’t all that fun to have to stare at the screen to know where all your fingers are, while trying to play expressively.

The Sensel morph was a device that tried to go somewhere in between. The company discontinued the product after some time. Even with a pressure sensitive surface, it was challenging to make it responsive enough for really expressive playing, though it does work pretty well in some people’s view. I have one. I don’t think it works well enough for my uses. The failure of that product could have had as much to do with the company, the economy, or the market as anything else, though.

wim

btw, I'm not saying force sensitive keyboard surfaces aren't a great thing to have. I'm just saying that it's not surprising to me why they're not more widely implemented in synth apps.

hsi_tv

I guess that Apple commercial of the upright piano being crushed with a bunch of other stuff and then all of it resulting in an iPad was a bit premature lol

carterluke

@wim said:

@carterluke said:
Yeah, MusiKraken does support velocity and aftertouch. Pressure sensitivity depends on the device you're using with it, though. For example, on an iPad with a good stylus or a touch surface that can detect pressure, you’ll get that functionality. But honestly, virtual controllers with proper velocity and aftertouch are still rare. Most apps focus more on ease of use than depth like this.

It’s weird because you'd expect it to be standard by now, especially for people working on expressive synth performances. I think apps like GeoShred are a bit ahead in this area, but even they can feel limited compared to physical hardware. Virtual keyboards have a lot of catching up to do if they want to truly compete with MIDI controllers.

It’s not a software issue. The problem is except for a few discontinued iPhone models, the sensing capability isn’t really there. It has to be faked. It’s not easy to do and especially not easy to do well.

I don’t find that weird at all. Making a glass surface the size of a iPad, that can measure pressure and is still durable enough for a mobile device and isn’t prohibitively expensive hasn’t proved to be practical yet.

And even if you it was practical, most people would probably still prefer a controller with a more haptic surface than a slick pane of glass. It isn’t all that fun to have to stare at the screen to know where all your fingers are, while trying to play expressively.

The Sensel morph was a device that tried to go somewhere in between. The company discontinued the product after some time. Even with a pressure sensitive surface, it was challenging to make it responsive enough for really expressive playing, though it does work pretty well in some people’s view. I have one. I don’t think it works well enough for my uses. The failure of that product could have had as much to do with the company, the economy, or the market as anything else, though.

MusiKraken doesn’t have velocity/pressure or aftertouch as far as I know, it's more of a basic virtual controller. Most virtual keyboards don’t support these features because they're limited by the hardware they run on (like touchscreens).

Pressure sensitivity in apps like Procreate is different because it uses the stylus tech, not the screen itself. For virtual synths, unless you're using something like an MPE-compatible controller (e.g., ROLI), you're not gonna get true aftertouch or pressure sensitivity.

If you're serious about this stuff, a physical MIDI controller with MPE support is probably the way to go. Virtual ones still feel like they’re catching up. Would love to hear if anyone's found one that nails it, though.

hsi_tv

If you're serious about this stuff, a physical MIDI controller with MPE support is probably the way to go. Virtual ones still feel like they’re catching up. Would love to hear if anyone's found one that nails it, though.

I have an Oxi One, Roland JX-08 + K-25m, and a few USB-powered iRig and Alesis keyboards lying around somewhere, so I'll be fine. I just thought it was an interesting topic to explore. Also, on the go, you may not always want to lug around a keyboard.

PapaBPoppin

@carterluke said:

@wim said:

@carterluke said:
Yeah, MusiKraken does support velocity and aftertouch. Pressure sensitivity depends on the device you're using with it, though. For example, on an iPad with a good stylus or a touch surface that can detect pressure, you’ll get that functionality. But honestly, virtual controllers with proper velocity and aftertouch are still rare. Most apps focus more on ease of use than depth like this.

It’s weird because you'd expect it to be standard by now, especially for people working on expressive synth performances. I think apps like GeoShred are a bit ahead in this area, but even they can feel limited compared to physical hardware. Virtual keyboards have a lot of catching up to do if they want to truly compete with MIDI controllers.

It’s not a software issue. The problem is except for a few discontinued iPhone models, the sensing capability isn’t really there. It has to be faked. It’s not easy to do and especially not easy to do well.

I don’t find that weird at all. Making a glass surface the size of a iPad, that can measure pressure and is still durable enough for a mobile device and isn’t prohibitively expensive hasn’t proved to be practical yet.

And even if you it was practical, most people would probably still prefer a controller with a more haptic surface than a slick pane of glass. It isn’t all that fun to have to stare at the screen to know where all your fingers are, while trying to play expressively.

The Sensel morph was a device that tried to go somewhere in between. The company discontinued the product after some time. Even with a pressure sensitive surface, it was challenging to make it responsive enough for really expressive playing, though it does work pretty well in some people’s view. I have one. I don’t think it works well enough for my uses. The failure of that product could have had as much to do with the company, the economy, or the market as anything else, though.

MusiKraken doesn’t have velocity/pressure or aftertouch as far as I know, it's more of a basic virtual controller. Most virtual keyboards don’t support these features because they're limited by the hardware they run on (like touchscreens).

Ok, so I jumped the gun on the geoshred bit, but I've got insight into MusiKraken! 😅 (As long as the iOS version is similar to the Android version. Don't know why it wouldn't be, but I got a throw it out there)

Under TouchPad widget, there's a 'pressure' output option, and while I haven't used it, deductive reasoning (with other options available, like 'distance,' 'radius,' etc) - that's gonna be the flesh mash meter

And there is a widget for Accelerator usage. I haven't touched it, but I may run a full test later. It's sensitive enough to measure light and hard taps (just tested basics), and it has output options for Raw (device's current position to earth) and User (holding phone still in any position, zeroed out. Any subtle movement shows, then resets when stopped)

All that said, potentially can run faux velocity and aftertouch with a bit of fiddling

MusiKraken is crazy deep when you start fiddling with things. It's just a shame cross platform isn't as smooth as I hoped (hmm. I should run direct, just to see if it's just wireless that sucks, something cross platform... Or my old ass phone isn't up to snuff 😅)

(I've messed with both gyro and finger tracking for expression/vibrato. It's janky as fk for bt from Android to iPad. It's as bad as TouchOSC wireless [bt or wifi] from Android to iPad, and I don't have another iOS device to test if it's any better. I can't justify picking em up on iPad since my main use for either is aux screens, wouldn't use em on the device itself)