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using bluetooth MIDI in Yosemite

gkillmastergkillmaster
edited November 2014 in General App Discussion

I'm posting this in its own thread. I had replied to another that wasn't quite on topic. sorry about that...

I'm not having any luck finding a good work flow using bluetooth MIDI

I followed the soundtestroom demo with Ableton Live and Caramel. The first stumbling block was just getting my iPad to connect via bluetooth at all. I struggled with this for an hour or so, then all of a sudden it decided to link. I had not done anything different. Just kept trying. Later it became disconnected when I restarted my computer and same thing. Its took many tries before I could connect. I'm not sure why that is. Is the bluetooth implementation in Yosemite known to be buggy or is this just normal a first time detection thing?

The next hurdle was getting assigning MIDI CC numbers to the parameters in Caramel. It all looked so easy in the demo but my version of Caramel didn't have any MIDI CC numbers assigned to it. What is the easiest and best way to assign MIDI CC numbers there? This is sort of an aside but would appreciate knowing how you all make these assignments.

And about MIDI LE, is it the same as just establishing a connection with Caramel. Just getting the iPad talking to Yosemite via bluetooth MIDI in Audio Midi Setup? That's what it seems like to me. Would be nice to have an explanation of how it might be different.

And lastly, I have Apollo MIDI over Bluetooth as well but have not had luck maintaining a connection from my iPad Air 2 to Ableton Live in Yosemite. It works going from iPhone to iPad but I'm really wanting to use my iPad to control synths and DAWs on OSX but it keeps disconnecting and I'm not sure if I need to specify Apollo MIDI OR IAC driver as the source.

Sorry for my lame questions. I spend enough time trying to sort through this with my mental mind that I'm now I'm utterly unclear.

Using iPad Air 2, OSX 10.10, IOS 8.1.

many thanks for tips and clarifications...

Greg K.

Comments

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    This would be a great topic for the Soundtestroom :) (the demystification of bluetooth MIDI between IOS and OSX and IOS and IOS)

  • CSwinnCSwinn
    edited November 2014

    My experience with Bluetooth and Yosemite has not been that buggy, I'm unsure what could be causing the iPad to only suddenly appear after an hour. In the ipad settings there is the Bluetooth tab, I'm sure you've already enabled that, but try turning off your wifi on both devices too.

    I may repeat things you've done, but I'll create a checklist so you can post where your experience differs.

    -In Caramel, go to settings, then bluetooth midi setup. Enable advertise midi service.

    -On the Mac, open the Midi studio window, click the bluetooth icon below the iac/network icons. You should see your ipad listed here and hit connect.

    -In Ableton Preferences, you should now see your ipad as an input and output. It'll say GKillMaster (Bluetooth) or similiar, make sure they are listed both in the in/out up top, and turn on the track/sync/remote for both input and output for your ipad.

    -On your midi track's i/o, make sure you have midi from/to both set to your device and channel one.

    -In Caramel, go to settings again, assign the channel to one if its not already, and enable midi input. Close that out and go to tweak mode. Enable learn on the top left, and you should see all of your cc's listed. If you don't and each parameter just looks like "cc--", you need to assign them somehow. This part kind of sucks, I just cleared all my midi learn settings trying to figure this out and it's a bitch with Ableton. Maybe @holdernessmedia could add an update where you can type in the cc's to assign, or at least reassign them to the defaults? I think your best bet is using a third app such as midi designer to assign cc's to Caramel. You need to physically move a knob for it to read the cc's, once it's assigned though, you should be able to follow the rest of the video where you draw in automations in Ableton.

    I hadn't experienced Caramel not having cc's assigned already, so I can see how this would be very frustrating. Like I said though, once you use another app/midi controller to assign them inside of Caramel, you should be good to go.

    I haven't really used Apollo much on the Mac, and I don't have MIDI LE. I can try taking a look later at those, but @SecretBaseDesign might know too.

  • SebastianSebastian

    What are the specs of your Mac?

  • HoldernessMediaHoldernessMedia
    edited November 2014

    @CSwinn said:

    -In Caramel, go to settings again, assign the channel to one if its not already, and enable midi input. Close that out and go to tweak mode. Enable learn on the top left, and you should see all of your cc's listed. If you don't and each parameter just looks like "cc--", you need to assign them somehow. This part kind of sucks, I just cleared all my midi learn settings trying to figure this out and it's a bitch with Ableton. Maybe @holdernessmedia could add an update where you can type in the cc's to assign, or at least reassign them to the defaults? I think your best bet is using a third app such as midi designer to assign cc's to Caramel. You need to physically move a knob for it to read the cc's, once it's assigned though, you should be able to follow the rest of the video where you draw in automations in Ableton.

    There is no need to use a third party app to assign CC's if you want to automate with Ableton, you can follow the same steps as you would for any other MIDI controller. Mapping is handled the same way whether it is from a hardware or software source, what people sometimes forget is that you need to actually send MIDI data from Ableton in order for Caramel (or any other music app with MIDI learn) to learn it.

    Once Caramel is in Learn mode, touch the slider that you want to assign a CC. Then simply do one of the following:

    • If you are using a hardware or software MIDI controller, you would then twist the physical slider or knob on your controller. Caramel (and just about any other music app with MIDI learn) receives the MIDI message and assigns it to that parameter.

    • If you are using Ableton or another DAW to automate, instead of twisting a physical knob you will just choose any CC number you wish to assign and select that number in your MIDI clip or track, then draw a little bit of automation. Now press play in Ableton or whatever DAW, it should send the MIDI data you just created and will be learned by the app.
      ***Edit - If you are using Ableton, please be aware that Ableton sends CC 123 when you press the stop button, and this will be received by Caramel so it will overwrite the CC data coming from the automation you just drew in. You will need to either exit Learn mode in Caramel before stopping Ableton to prevent this from happening, or if you are using a MIDI clip you can stop the clip itself which will not send a CC. Note that for Logic users you can ignore this as Logic does not send a CC when stopping the transport.

    This may seem confusing at first but just remember, the only difference here is that instead of twisting a physical knob on a hardware controller to send the MIDI message to Caramel, you have to actually send some MIDI data from Ableton, Logic, or whatever you're using for it to be learned.

    This will work with just about any app that has MIDI learn by the way, so have fun getting your automation on!

  • HoldernessMediaHoldernessMedia

    @gkillmaster Regarding the stability of the Bluetooth connection, I'm not sure what's going on there. For me, it has been very solid. I suspect it may just be that during the confusion while you were trying to set things up, the Bluetooth discovery mode keeps timing out, requiring you to start over again each time. Follow the steps @CSwinn listed above and as long as they were done in a timely manner, you should be able to connect and stay connected without issue.

    If you follow those steps and still have a lot of problems getting/staying connected, then there may be a problem with your hardware on either the Mac or iOS device, but its more likely a timeout issue. Let us know how it goes.

    I was originally planning to make a Bluetooth MIDI setup video when my recent app updates came out, but Colin did such a great job I didn't feel it was necessary for me to make one. Maybe I'll do an addendum video to cover some of the more nuanced scenarios like this.

  • CSwinnCSwinn

    I was trying your second method this morning Chris, using automation to assign the cc's. They were each ending up at 123 no matter what I initially set it to in Ableton which is why I was finding it difficult and suggested using a second controller.

    Upon trying this again just now after a much needed nap, if you create the automation, hit play, let Caramel learn the cc, and turn off Caramels learn before stopping Ableton, it works properly. It must pick up the stop button as 123.

    It would still be nice to have an option for the default cc's to reappear once you cleared them though. :)

  • PaulinkoPaulinko

    It would be nice to manually assign CCs in Caramel (all Holderness apps) and save them as presets too as depending upon what hardware/software you're using it can be a hassle and a needless work around to use midi learn each time time you change your setup.

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    wow, reading through all this now and going to try to get it to work. Just got home. thanks everyone!

    the specs on my computer are 27" 2012 iMac i7 with Bluetooth v4, 24 gigs ram. OSX 10.10...

  • HoldernessMediaHoldernessMedia

    @CSwinn said:

    I was trying your second method this morning Chris, using automation to assign the cc's. They were each ending up at 123 no matter what I initially set it to in Ableton which is why I was finding it difficult and suggested using a second controller.

    Upon trying this again just now after a much needed nap, if you create the automation, hit play, let Caramel learn the cc, and turn off Caramels learn before stopping Ableton, it works properly. It must pick up the stop button as 123.

    It would still be nice to have an option for the default cc's to reappear once you cleared them though. :)

    Ahh my mistake, you're right about Ableton sending 123 when stopping. I've been using MIDI clips in session view and just stopping the clip which doesn't send a CC so I didn't encounter this before. Logic doesn't send a CC when stopping the transport so it's not an issue in that regard.

    @Paulinko said:

    It would be nice to manually assign CCs in Caramel (all Holderness apps) and save them as presets too as depending upon what hardware/software you're using it can be a hassle and a needless work around to use midi learn each time time you change your setup.

    I'll have to think about this, it could definitely be great for more advanced users but I can see this causing problems for many users who would get confused on which MIDI mapping they are using at any given time. Right now the MIDI mappings are stored globally, but I could always switch to saving on a per preset basis. Again, I am hesitant in that it could potentially cause more confusion so I'll think about it for a bit. Thanks for the suggestions guys! :)

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    @CSwinn said:

    My experience with Bluetooth and Yosemite has not been that buggy, I'm unsure what could be causing the iPad to only suddenly appear after an hour. In the ipad settings there is the Bluetooth tab, I'm sure you've already enabled that, but try turning off your wifi on both devices too.

    I may repeat things you've done, but I'll create a checklist so you can post where your experience differs.

    -In Caramel, go to settings, then bluetooth midi setup. Enable advertise midi service.

    -On the Mac, open the Midi studio window, click the bluetooth icon below the iac/network icons. You should see your ipad listed here and hit connect.

    -In Ableton Preferences, you should now see your ipad as an input and output. It'll say GKillMaster (Bluetooth) or similiar, make sure they are listed both in the in/out up top, and turn on the track/sync/remote for both input and output for your ipad.

    -On your midi track's i/o, make sure you have midi from/to both set to your device and channel one.

    -In Caramel, go to settings again, assign the channel to one if its not already, and enable midi input. Close that out and go to tweak mode. Enable learn on the top left, and you should see all of your cc's listed. If you don't and each parameter just looks like "cc--", you need to assign them somehow. This part kind of sucks, I just cleared all my midi learn settings trying to figure this out and it's a bitch with Ableton. Maybe @holdernessmedia could add an update where you can type in the cc's to assign, or at least reassign them to the defaults? I think your best bet is using a third app such as midi designer to assign cc's to Caramel. You need to physically move a knob for it to read the cc's, once it's assigned though, you should be able to follow the rest of the video where you draw in automations in Ableton.

    I hadn't experienced Caramel not having cc's assigned already, so I can see how this would be very frustrating. Like I said though, once you use another app/midi controller to assign them inside of Caramel, you should be good to go.

    I haven't really used Apollo much on the Mac, and I don't have MIDI LE. I can try taking a look later at those, but @SecretBaseDesign might know too.

    This is very strange. Its asking me to pair my iPad using a 6 digit number. It did not do that this morning the whole 2 hours I was trying to get this to work... I honestly don't remember if I had Wifi turned on earlier but I think I did. I did a makeshift thing trying to assign CC using the envelope but it always defaults to CC123 when I stop the transport. YES, I really wish we could just enter the CC numbers in there. Thanks a lot @CSwinn ! I think its working as expected now. And the bluetooth connection doesn't keep getting disconnected like earlier. I do wonder if Wifi could have interfered...

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    @HoldernessMedia said:

    There is no need to use a third party app to assign CC's if you want to automate with Ableton, you can follow the same steps as you would for any other MIDI controller. Mapping is handled the same way whether it is from a hardware or software source, what people sometimes forget is that you need to actually send MIDI data from Ableton in order for Caramel (or any other music app with MIDI learn) to learn it.

    Once Caramel is in Learn mode, touch the slider that you want to assign a CC. Then simply do one of the following:

    • If you are using a hardware or software MIDI controller, you would then twist the physical slider or knob on your controller. Caramel (and just about any other music app with MIDI learn) receives the MIDI message and assigns it to that parameter.

    • If you are using Ableton or another DAW to automate, instead of twisting a physical knob you will just choose any CC number you wish to assign and select that number in your MIDI clip or track, then draw a little bit of automation. Now press play in Ableton or whatever DAW, it should send the MIDI data you just created and will be learned by the app.

    This may seem confusing at first but just remember, the only difference here is that instead of twisting a physical knob on a hardware controller to send the MIDI message to Caramel, you have to actually send some MIDI data from Ableton, Logic, or whatever you're using for it to be learned.

    This will work with just about any app that has MIDI learn by the way, so have fun getting your automation on!

    This worked except not exactly. I drew an automation curve and have the value CC40 for the envelope value of that automation curve. I drew the curve in and ran the transport and the Caramel control moves but in tweak more it displays "CC123" not "CC40". its kind of a steppy pain to do it that way. I really wish we could just type the CC number in there.

  • HoldernessMediaHoldernessMedia
    edited November 2014

    @gkillmaster said:

    @HoldernessMedia said:

    There is no need to use a third party app to assign CC's if you want to automate with Ableton, you can follow the same steps as you would for any other MIDI controller. Mapping is handled the same way whether it is from a hardware or software source, what people sometimes forget is that you need to actually send MIDI data from Ableton in order for Caramel (or any other music app with MIDI learn) to learn it.

    Once Caramel is in Learn mode, touch the slider that you want to assign a CC. Then simply do one of the following:

    • If you are using a hardware or software MIDI controller, you would then twist the physical slider or knob on your controller. Caramel (and just about any other music app with MIDI learn) receives the MIDI message and assigns it to that parameter.

    • If you are using Ableton or another DAW to automate, instead of twisting a physical knob you will just choose any CC number you wish to assign and select that number in your MIDI clip or track, then draw a little bit of automation. Now press play in Ableton or whatever DAW, it should send the MIDI data you just created and will be learned by the app.

    This may seem confusing at first but just remember, the only difference here is that instead of twisting a physical knob on a hardware controller to send the MIDI message to Caramel, you have to actually send some MIDI data from Ableton, Logic, or whatever you're using for it to be learned.

    This will work with just about any app that has MIDI learn by the way, so have fun getting your automation on!

    This worked except not exactly. I drew an automation curve and have the value CC40 for the envelope value of that automation curve. I drew the curve in and ran the transport and the Caramel control moves but in tweak more it displays "CC123" not "CC40". its kind of a steppy pain to do it that way. I really wish we could just type the CC number in there.

    Yes, sorry about this, it was my mistake as I just realized and posted above. I was using MIDI clips in Ableton and just stopping the clip, which does send CC 123, so I hadn't experienced that problem. The stop button on Ableton's transport does send 123, so you will need to either turn off learn in Caramel before stopping Ableton's transport, or tap the next slider you wish to assign in Caramel and move on to another clip envelope in Ableton with a different CC. Note that Logic does not send 123 when stopping so this isn't an issue for those who are mapping with Logic.

    I've edited my original post that listed the steps to reflect this.

    I agree this is not ideal for easily mapping CC's from Ableton, so I'll probably add the ability to type in a CC number to assign them in a future update. I'll have a think on this in addition to the possibility of multiple MIDI mapping configurations.

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    @HoldernessMedia said:

    @gkillmaster Regarding the stability of the Bluetooth connection, I'm not sure what's going on there. For me, it has been very solid. I suspect it may just be that during the confusion while you were trying to set things up, the Bluetooth discovery mode keeps timing out, requiring you to start over again each time. Follow the steps @CSwinn listed above and as long as they were done in a timely manner, you should be able to connect and stay connected without issue.

    If you follow those steps and still have a lot of problems getting/staying connected, then there may be a problem with your hardware on either the Mac or iOS device, but its more likely a timeout issue. Let us know how it goes.

    I was originally planning to make a Bluetooth MIDI setup video when my recent app updates came out, but Colin did such a great job I didn't feel it was necessary for me to make one. Maybe I'll do an addendum video to cover some of the more nuanced scenarios like this.

    Ok, I thought I was onto something cause when I turned wifi back on, it broke my ability to assign CC in Caramel. It also disconnected. I re-connected but it was filmsy and kept disconnecting. Also, even when I was connected, the CC assignment seemed to be ignored and it would not see incoming MIDI CC from Ableton (set up exactly the same way as when it was working!). Caramel in learn more just displayed the channel's value instead of the incoming CC number in other words... I closed Caramel and re-opened, no luck. Rebooted my iPad and started from scratch with only bluetooth on and I couldn't get it to work again! Just like this morning. This is really crazy...

    I do thank you @HoldernessMedia for your time to try and help. Seems like crazy things start to happen and everything gets mixed up when I turn on the wifi and I can't get it back. Maybe I need to leave for a few hours again and then it will work.

  • HoldernessMediaHoldernessMedia

    Hmm... There is a chance you may be experiencing some hardwaree related issues then, I haven't anywhere near this much trouble connecting any of my iOS devices to the Mac via Bluetooth. I'm not sure how much I can help you in that regard but I am about to run out and get dinner, I'll see if I can help more later tonight.

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    I'm happy to do whatever it takes to help troubleshoot this if it would be of use. I might bet there is something buggy with new bluetooth MIDI in Yosemite perhaps or interference from WiFi or something else in Apple's implementation. Except it seems I'm the only one having these issues so far...

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    or worse my new iPad 2 ! :(

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    thanks so much @HoldernessMedia. I'll try again when my patience returns.

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    here's a new twist. I rebooted my iMac. Everything was going good. asked to pair the bluetooth device (iPad Air 2) again. But then when I opened Caramel and tried to assign CC in learn mode, it refused to see incoming Ableton CC data. So I got the bright idea to delete Caramel and re-download it. But now when I hit the cloud re-download icon for it, it doesn't do anything. I can't re-download it. I even just restarted my iPad and it still won't let me download it. Letting go of this for awhile. Thanks for everyone's help. Think I'll entertain the notion that something is wrong with my iPad...

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    I think I may have figured this out. Reading online, people are having all kinds of bluetooth trouble with IOS 8 and it seems like some of it is related to handoff. I turned it off and tried again and now it seems to work flawlessly. I've assigned all the parameters to CC in Swoopster (still can't download Caramel!) and I just needed to draw a single CC value and keep changing CC number in the envelope. All easy like I expected it should be and it never disconnected...! :)

    ....figured out how to install Caramel too. Did it through iTunes.

  • SecretBaseDesignSecretBaseDesign

    Hi -- late getting to this thread (just saw that I was tagged above). Apollo should be good to go on any combination of iOS 6+ and OS X 10.7+ -- you're running the Apollo Mac app on your Mac, right?

    Sounds like the MIDI issues have been sorted -- but if not, let me know, and I'll jump in.

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    Thanks @SecretBaseDesign. Actually I was using the bluetooth MIDI in Yosemite and IOS 8 (sheepish to say), but I had a question wether your applications have more to offer.

    I'm really thinking all of these issues have to do with "handoff" at this point. As soon as I turned it off, everything worked like a charm.

  • HoldernessMediaHoldernessMedia

    @gkillmaster said:

    I think I may have figured this out. Reading online, people are having all kinds of bluetooth trouble with IOS 8 and it seems like some of it is related to handoff. I turned it off and tried again and now it seems to work flawlessly. I've assigned all the parameters to CC in Swoopster (still can't download Caramel!) and I just needed to draw a single CC value and keep changing CC number in the envelope. All easy like I expected it should be and it never disconnected...! :)

    ....figured out how to install Caramel too. Did it through iTunes.

    Interesting find although frustrating about Handoff. Glad it's all sorted out now, sorry for the initial headaches!

  • CSwinnCSwinn

    Good to hear it's working!

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    thanks everyone! didn't expect it to turn into a troubleshooting thread but I completely appreciate all the suggestions and support! Hopefully it can help someone else who may have the same issues.

  • SecretBaseDesignSecretBaseDesign
    edited November 2014

    @gkillmaster said:

    Thanks @SecretBaseDesign. Actually I was using the bluetooth MIDI in Yosemite and IOS 8 (sheepish to say), but I had a question wether your applications have more to offer.

    For folks on iOS 8 and Yosemite, the Apple MIDI over Bluetooth is probably the easiest option. We've had our app out for a while, and it runs on earlier versions of iOS and OS X, but it's obvious that we're going to get steamrolled by Apple. (Except of course, when optimized support for MIDI clock, and a few other things, get integrated into Apollo ;-).

  • gkillmastergkillmaster

    I'm definitely going to use Apollo over MIDI bluetooth soon and am interested to compare workflow.

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