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Was hoping to use ISEM as part of my live rig - but...
No program change via midi? Really?
Comments
I use it live on every gig, I just have my patches set up so I can touch the name and hit load. But, I don't change patches too much because I'm using it for synth bass so I have only a few sounds I might use in the course of a gig. It sounds amazing though.
Yeah, not many apps respond to program change messages. There is a thread around here somewhere that has a good list of the ones which do.
I think this is it...
http://forum.audiob.us/discussion/5657/preset-switching/p1
@mrufino1 said:
Has to be automated for me. My ipads will be back of stage. It does sound amazing, though.
@syrupcore said:
I'll probably replace with Magellan, but as I've been trying to move my rig from Ableton to IOS, it's surprised me how many apps are 1-2 features short of being perfect for live use.
@funjunkie27 said:
Excellent. Thanks.
I did notice Nave being on this list as not responding to PC, but it's working for me. Was another one of the synths I planned to use live.
@rad3d said:
I've come to accept that just about any musical tool is going to be a few features short of ideal. If any company were to ever get it 100% spot on, it would break the game. There's just no such thing as a killer app or killer instrument for electronic based music. That said, lack of program change sucks, but I can also understand why it isn't a priority when you're dealing with midi limitations of 128s vs. infinite patches.
@Accent said:
But we're talking about Program Changes here. For synth apps, there seems to be no excuse why you can't make a simple user bank of 128 patches that respond to basic PCs.
Some of the other missing elements have been things like Midi Clock Sync and mappable parameters, with functionality varies from synth to synth. I can understand not supporting those types of features - but forgetting about PCs doesn't make sense to me. For example, ISEM has gone to the trouble to not only allow mapping of params, but to also create a Performance Mode. PCs should be a 2 hour development add when you're already that far into the rest of your midi implementation.
Regardless, you're correct. We wouldn't want to break the game.
Coming from a hardware setup, I can see why you wouldn't bother with PCs...if you have a midi limitation of 128 PCs but you can create an app that could host thousands of them, how would you even start? It's a limitation that goes back to the early days that isn't quite realistic when you have no real storage limitations, but when you're considering factory presets, user presets, speciality artist presets, and you may wish to sell IAPs to expand upon, what do you do? I think I have 32 user presets in my TX81Z, but I can get a lot of mileage from them. With Audiobus, it just makes more sense to use state saving to recall patches than it does to worry about PCs.
Also solved since the 80s actually: bank change message, then program change message.
@Accent said:
Of course, but my original point was more about automation for live purposes. If I could use state changing in Audiobus live, I could call up a patch manually. In my case, my ipads will be back of stage and I won't be hovering over them during performance.
Being able to automatically call up patches for ALL my gear from a single remote source - so I'm not fumbling around on stage between songs - is important. And in a live situation, I usually have a default set of patches for each piece of gear/app per song - which would be a lot of states to manage - especially if I ever add or remove a synth/fx app from my live sets. Midi PCs are a bit more efficient in that regard.
I realize the current crop of apps were designed with ipad composition as the primary use. But with so much ability already there to use these apps live, it seems a little strange to leave off something as simple as PCs.
It is what it is, though. All I know is without automation capabilities I can't use certain apps live.
There are plenty of other options that do work on ios, though. I can cover a lot of ground between Magellan and Nave.
@Accent - I agree with this: "I've come to accept that just about any musical tool is going to be a few features short of ideal."
I think this is even more so with iOS music apps because they are so fragmented are there are no 'standards' really yet. Plus the business model seems to encourage lots of smaller single purpose apps rather than a more all in one, more expensive app. (Lots of benefits to this too of course).
It's like a really complicated jigsaw puzzle... midi but promiscuous, no clock sync, midi notes but no CCs, midi in but not out, IAA but not AudioBus, x won't work with y but you could go through z and it might... etc. etc. etc...
I think this needs to mature if the platform is going to progress because many people don't have the time/patience for all this. I have little experience of PC/Mac music software but hasn't this all been mostly solved there with the VST format? Maybe we need a 'standard' / benchmark that apps sign up to in regard to a basic set of interconnectivity features?
I would think a full featured midi SDK would resolve much of these issues, but I'm not a programmer, so that might just be naive on my part.
@Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
Of course, Midi 'is' a standard that makes no sense to fragment without some sort of replacement
I have no idea what you're talking about here...
I've done this on too many platforms for too many years - and it does take patience. It's not rocket science, but it can pay off in a big way. My current Ableton rig has been pretty incredible. We don't sequence and try to keep the additional instrumentation tied to performance-based triggers. It allows me to add a lot of depth and experimentation to performances. This move to IOS is still an unknown quantity for me (first rehearsal tonight) - but it will mean a huge change in portability if it does work. Stability and proper backup will be key.
PC/Mac music software isn't perfect either - but most have at least been built on standards that have been in place for quite a while. Of course, apps like Ableton give you so many ways to skin the cat that there's almost nothing you can't do with it - even when a plugin doesn't have the support you need. Moving to IOS is a huge step back from Ableton, but I've done all of this with a whole lot less before, as well.
Ha, ha - don't worry about it. I'm just rambling
.
But you're exactly right - it 'is' a jigsaw puzzle.
I think the good thing about the PC based solutions is that the SoftSynths and FX were designed 'specifically' to plug into DAWS - and there is some degree of standard functionality that was required (not that everyone adhered to it)
But on IOS - we're not plugging synths into DAWs - we're plugging apps into apps. I thought it was funny the first time I tried to add a synth app to BM2 that there was Nanosynth and Auria sitting there ready to be plugged in - as if it made sense to plug one DAW into another. And unfortunately - in some situations, it does!
Crazy - but still cool.
@rad3d curious why you'd want to switch to iPads for live if you're not going to touch them. Is there something in particular iPads can deliver to you that a laptop can't?
Mainly Portability:
I trigger everything from a SoftStep and a Quneo up front (2 USB cables). If I put the ipad(s) up front, I'd have to keep interfaces at front of stage, and end up with messy cable runs.
I also don't have to worry about long OS boot times in case something goes wrong.
We'll see...
Thanks for the breakdown.
Overkill - I know...
Guess it seems to me that unless you really want access to an iPad only synth without a desktop counterpart (thinking animoog here), a laptop and an interface would be cheaper and easier. Low budget windows laptop should have everything you need—including an affordable second/backup system.
There is an SDK that makes it easier to do all the MIDI low level stuff - MidiBus from Audeonics - but it still takes App Dev time to implement the UI features to take advantage of it. Outside of idiBus, however, it's pretty much everyone out for themselves, and most are Audio not MIDI experts.
@syrupcore said:
I've been running budget Windows laptops - including the backup. But the software is 'way' more expensive. Ableton wasn't cheap, then add in a 'few' softsynths that cost anywhere from 2-5x the cost of their ios counterparts, and it adds up. Not to mention more complex operating systems that will eventually hit you with unexplained issues at the wrong time. Maintaining a duplicate backup system also potentially runs me into licensing issues with a few of the applications I run, and I've had to maintain a fairly elaborate cloud backup system so that my systems stay in sync.
IOS devices - while not as powerful - are simply more efficient devices. They boot up quicker, they're easier to maintain, and I can set them up with less connections. 64GB Ipad Mini Retinas are going for around $350 these days and they're tiny. Software is inexpensive and transferable between all my iOS devices. I already have a bigger arsenal of quality soft synths available to me for recording projects as well as a few DAW options for laying down great sounding tracks, for much less than it costed me for Ableton alone.
Each will have their own advantages to different musicians, though. For me, the portability factor is important. The proof is still to come, but I'm expecting this rig to be much easier to manage.
Of course, there's always the 'because I can' factor...
Makes sense and hell, 'Because I can' has pushed a lot of art and tech forward over the years. Good on ya.