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The writing was on the wall the whole time.
Or did you mean to reply to the other thread ?
(EDIT: removed shameless plug from screenshot)
No just tried to read and undertstand your post and always got lost in middle :-)) So I was genuinely curious if this was just experiment to generate some post which makes no sense if anybody notices
)
Plesse don’t get offended, it’s probably just mine lack of english skills
Nah, that screenshot was waiting for that perfect opportunity
It was maybe 2-3% AI. Just run of the mill grammar stuff... I was adamant to keep my rhythm-breaking literary convolutions
Well, that’s the problem isn’t it? Governments around the world have ignored the warnings (sometimes from the actual people who developed AI themselves; just how many ‘grandfathers of AI’ who kinda regret their involvement were there at the last count?), failed to think about the implications, failed to regulate and swallowed the line that ‘if you don’t embrace it, you’re going to be left behind’.
“Healthy democracies” is the part that’s missing. We’re back in an age of oligarchy now, democracy, to the extent it even really was democracy, turns out to have been a blip…
I fear you are correct.
Maybe our best hope is that artificial super-intelligence arrives at a philosophy of equality and controls the world as a benign dictator for the good of all humanity!
I would say here in Slovakia, or especially in Czech republic works democracy pretty well. Like yes, I totally hate our current government cause it’s bunch of mobs, thiefs and pro-russia assholes, weird mixture of socislists/populists and far right opportunists - but well, they really won the elections without any cheating or manipulations other than lying to their voters and promising them nonsenses - people voted for them - so i have to accept it and hope that in next elections cards will flip the side and more pro-European government will be elected.
There is lot of things here and there I don’t like but in overall - I am satisfied with level of democracy here and in countries around. Public space is safe here, life standard pretty good, nature pretty clean, personal freedom at very good level. For people willing to work, with ideas and will to improve own life standard - there is still plethora of opportunities to live very good life in reasonable standard.
I just like the part of world where I live. People often complain not reslising they life standard si WAY beyond any imaginations of their ancestors who loved at earth few centuries ago - and thanks to economic growth it just improving constantly.
We are living best times in history of mankind and eve throug thre eare assholes who want to destroy that (either individuals or enrire countries), Iťs good times to live.
A good point about vibe coded apps is that it makes it much easier to launch, but difficult to maintain leading to abandonware.
To your point @egobeats, there's a reason why most organisations who claim that vibe coding is working for them, typically have junior developers prompting AI coding agents, and senior developers reviewing the generated code / pull requests.
In many cases, the junior developers don't even have good, or in some cases, any coding skills.
The senior developer has the experience to spot potential issues (including scalability, maintenance, etc.) further down the line. So they'll reject stuff, with suggestions to refine prompts / architecture etc.
Closer to home, if you're an independent / solo developer with zero coding skills shipping and selling software using AI generated code, then yeah... There's a level of "blind faith" there [edit: on the part of the developer] that I just can't get my head around
I think generally we’re giving new vibe coding developers way too much credit. I think there’s one or two recent releases that seem OK but the rest are sub standard IMO and only worth a couple of $.
I also worry it will impact the sales of real DSP developers who will now get drowned out by the wave of new releases at similar price points.
Questions to ask when you see these apps popping up:
1. does it behave predictably?
2. does it support standard hosts well?
3. does the dev understand audio engineering? (looking at null tests, phase response, aliasing, noise, modulation artifacts, latency, CPU use, stereo/mono compatibility)
I'm just reminding myself to stick with the smaller indie devs who know their stuff (eg. Unfiltered Audio, AudioThing, Quantovox, Olympia Noise, Bram Bos, FAC, Igor Vasiliev, BeepStreet, and others).
I agree, even though it sucks for new developers who are good and want to start out in the iOS space. But the reality is that I’m not an app collector, and at this point, what more do I need? Most of these vibe apps are just synths and various effects that are nothing novel.
I’m happy to make exceptions for Bram Bos who makes apps that are fun, or quantovox with stuff I can’t build in Drambo, etc. But nowadays almost everything coming out just doesn’t seem necessary when I look at what I’ve already got. I don’t need any more reverbs, delays or distortion fx. Who does??
Yes, very, very, very little stuff coming out that people who already have a lot of apps (or who have Drambo lol) really need. Every creative field has a life cycle. It's a bit like music: not much originality, a lot of rehashing, it's all been done before.
Not to say that none of the the new things don't improve on old stuff. Some might, but you have to think a lot harder about whether the improvement is really worth parting with your hard earned cash. Especially as the world, and the economy, go down the pan...
Tbh, that's already been the case for a while. I think though that the flood of new releases has really brought it into focus. That, combined with the irritation of running into tons of bugs when you get a new app will just make people question: what the fuck am I doing here, collecting all this stuff I don't need, surely I have better things to do with my time, my money, my life...
The other thing that just occurred to me. Who is on the beta teams for these new vibe coders? Have they even got a little team together? I’m not on them all by any stretch but I have had the privilege to beta test with Bram Bos , Quantovox, Baby Audio, and a few others and there’s a real back and forth. The beta team start to really understand and respect the developer’s vision and try to help make it airtight before it ships. What I am seeing from these vibe coded apps is that they are one person’s passion project (maybe) and then just ship for shits and giggles as a minimum viable product. Sometimes there’s a public TestFlight but that’s not the same as a small team working together. It’s like self publishing your book with no editor. Great, I hope that made you feel good, now don’t charge more than $2 for it...
Ha. I’m sounding grumpy. Just trying to express real thoughts.
That too. And you have a feeling that many really haven't even done enough market research to check whether there's any need for their product or whether someone else has already done it, and done it much better, or much more elegantly. But again, that's already been a problem for a long time.
What's the point of vibe-coding anything when you can simply ask an AI for the desired output? Why would anyone need apps if they're nothing but the product of cleverly instructed agentic scripts?
Just relax and prepare yourself for the brave new future. 🤦♂️😅
And don't worry, we still need smart software engineers. Otherwise, who will maintain and advance those AI algorithms?
Indeed
Not sure about that arrow though?
I think there should definitely be upfront honesty in this subject. I am serious about making this the most useful tool in my studio and hope to get it in others hands if they see the same value. I am vibing my backside off, and learning loads in the process. About Xcode,Claude, Music and all my current hardware. I know Im not a coder by any means yet, (I often hear the voice of Ralph from the Simpsons saying “I’m Developing” ) but I know this might be the only way I’ll learn.
I also know I’m more obsessed with this project than any substance I’ve been obsessed with(true parallels). And there’s Vibe coding and there’s
Vibe AF coding I think that could be a distinction?
Everybody does
I am repeating this like parot again and gain.
There is "vibe coding".
And there is "agentic engineering".
MASSIVE difference. MASSIVE.
I agree 100% with this. The more you can give instructions in engineering terms to an LLM the better the output. I find it really helpful to brainstorm implementation of an idea with one model and have it write handoff instructions to a model specialized in coding.
I did this to make a quick twin stick shooter + tower defense game over the weekend. It’s as rough of a prototype as you can get, but I was shocked that all the essential mechanics were smoothly working. It was really fun to play, and there’s still a decent amount of technical knowledge I had to use in order to get something that usable. Installing Python packages, using a specific game engine for prototyping (Panda3D for those curious), setting virtual environments up for the agents, and determining what local models can run and what limitations they have are all developer decisions.
But "AI BAD RARRRH!" is so much easier.
As is the difference between agentic / vibe coding and understanding, reviewing, and if necessary, correcting the code.
I don't care where the code came from, so long as whoever is responsibe for it, can do all of the above.
We good?
Best comment in this whole thread ..
we good.
Hard to disagree with, in one sense. In another sense, though, I'm not so sure. I may be responsible for an app. However, I (almost certainly) use libraries or frameworks that have been created by others. Even though I bear responsibility for my app, other people bear responsibility to me for the libraries and frameworks I use, and I can't be expected to fully understand their small details.
I'm pretty sure it will be a good thing when I can depend on my agentic-vibe-coder in a similar way, even though I don't always fully understand the code they write for me. We aren't there yet. But certainly in the future, I can see depending on vibe-coded-code in similar way to the way I depend on libraries and frameworks, which I don't fully understand. The level of abstraction is moving up.
[ One could argue that I should be able to understand, review, and make corrections to any library or framework I use. That sounds good, but in practice it's simply not true. Even if I could fully understand it, any library or framework that has problematic bugs, makes me review its inner workings, and/or make corrections, is a library or framework that I'm going to be moving away from as soon as possible.]
Yeah try using something like MATLAB and wanting to know what goes on under the hood. Not every tool will show you how It’s functioning.
I think that's a valid argument, but maybe not a valid comparison with vibe / agentic generated code.
Let's take the JUCE framework as a good example, which I depend on for my plugin projects.
I haven't looked at all of the code in the framework, but on occasion I've needed to, in order to understand what it's doing, and if necessary, "tweak it" - cleanly, I might add, via subclassing and so on.
The JUCE framework has a dedicated and talented team that have been working on it for years. I trust them, and the framework in the same way I trust the macOS and iOS operating systems. Every proposed change to the JUCE framework gets reviewed and sanity-checked by the product owners and many of these changes are discussed at great length by folks who really know their stuff. That builds confidence and trust.
Do I trust Claude (or whatever) that just scraped a bunch of stuff from public repos on github and stack overflow questions, tried possibly hundreds of different combinations until it "looks good". No, I don't. Not at all.
To anyone who does, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying glwt
I'm pretty sure that's a gross mischaracterization of what Claude does, making it sound like Claude just tries random solutions until one works. There are clearly some differences, but it's not clear that AI intelligence/understanding is essentially different from human intelligence/understanding. Nobody quite knows how either of them really work. Both seem to be based on neural networks.
Clearly, we're not at that point now. And probably not anytime in the next few months, or next few years. But how about a decade, or three decades from now? I would be very surprised if in 2050 humans are micromanaging AI written code. There will be some way to specify and constrain what AI does, probably overseen by humans as long as that makes sense, more and more abstracted away from the details. But AI's coding of apps will become increasingly more reliable and successful.
Whether “AI” is a powerful tool may not be in question. But it is abundantly clear that the “intelligence/understanding” of what we are calling AIs is fundamentally different from human intelligence/understanding.
The interfaces to them have been designed to anthropomorphize our interactions to make them seem sentient, but that in no way makes them sentient.
Richard Dawkins would beg to differ. But Richard Dawkins would be wrong 😜