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Need help, trying to understand how iOS music production apps work.
So I'm new to iPad music making and am noticing some differences from iOS apps and VST/AU I use on my Mac. In my Mac DAW I can use any sample and bit rate that my audio interface allows, the VST/AU plugins will load up in my DAW without issue as to project sample and bit rates set. In iOS it seems that although up to 96K/32bit is supported pretty much every iOS synth app, drum machine, sound generator, etc. outputs sound (strictly) at about 44.1K/16 or 24bit. Meaning that if I try and record in Auria at 96K/24bit a synth app like Magellan for example I can't do it as Magellan insists you use 44.1K, other synth apps and drum machines I will alternatively get the sound sped up or otherwise artifacts in the recording.
Not exactly sure why this is happening in the iOS environment whereas it's not an issue in OSX. Meaning why I can record Massive in Ableton at 96K if I wanted but an iOS synth through IAA into Auria I'm restricted to the synth output despite the fact that iOS supports 48K and 96K. Can anyone explain what is going on here?
I assume the reason iOS synth makers have implemented a cap of sorts is because the original iPad wasn't that strong in processing power. Now of course we have much more capable iPads and I don't see why there is not at least an option for higher quality output or why I cannot just record the output of an iOS synth at whatever sample and bit rate iOS supports. Or, at least allow for higher quality output so I can then transfer files to my Mac DAW and continue from there. Auria I can choose to work in 48K or 96K and this gives me more room for quality audio processing. I can't imagine strictly working in 44.1K 16/24bit.
Comments
I think the great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. XD
iOS music apps are still evolving as the developers watch and listen to feedback from users. They are shaping the way we record and edit. Some tools are behind the PC and some tools are beyond the PC usage for music now. (Fabfilter touch interface comes to mind.)
The iPad is not a PC, so that is the first thing you are going to have to throw out the window. I loved the first iPad and still use it as a control surface, but it still has plenty of processing considering what I want to do. The DAW's on PC didn't get where they are overnight. I am seeing an evolution here that will always be a struggle, similar to PC's and device driver issues etc.
I'm optimistic things will come together very soon.
Well at the moment I'm just wishing that I could get those synth outputs at better than 44.1K 16bit, like in iMS-20...BAM! -capped off. I mean, why go through the trouble to make a novelty toy as oppose to a synth to be taken seriously by it's audio quality? Too what if I have a session in Auria with live clips and I'm working at 48K or even 96K and I want to add an iPad synth part?
At any rate, still figuring it out. Too it confusing when a synth app says it works at 32bit floating point but then outputs 16bit like in iVCS3.
Well it appears I can, once recorded and rendered out, get an iPad synth (44.1K 16bit) wav into a 96K session in Auria just not directly via IAA. Recording direct into Auria (still forced to a 44.1K project) and then rendering out I have option to get 32bit but that doesn't tell me the original recording's bit rate.
*Update. Via AudioShare I can record at 32bit.
I dont use higher sample or bit rates for several reasons..
Very few people actually listen to 32-96k music, most download MP3/itunes etc, and listen with ear buds.
More importantly, it will more than half the size of your project (on the iPad) as sounds and samples will require double the storage space and processor power, for it to sound better? mmm.
You might be able to tell the difference between 16-24-32 bit rates and 44-48-96k sample rates in a controlled acoustic space with expensive monitors ie- $100+ an hour pro studio. But on my little JBL's (or in my headphones) 16bit 44k sounds fine.
And until we get these quantum processors, i won't be using hi bit/ sample rates.
The lower sample rate means people on old devices like me can still use the apps. iOS sound quality never matches what I get using Logic on the Mac, but as my stuff is compressed into mp3, before being compressed again by Soundcloud or YouTube it probably doesn't matter. If anyone was mad enough to want a CD of my stuff I'd re-record it on the Mac, routing the iPad audio out via a mixing desk to warm it up a bit.
Technology allows for higher bit rates, sample rates ETC, your hearing does not
Ditto
See...I never got the idea that just because kids these days tend to listen to music via crappy MP3s and cheap earbuds that we should, as music producers and audio engineers, cater to the lowest common denominator. Why as technology advances we have to lower our standards? At any rate, if there was merely an option, a choosable option, to go higher quality if one so desired and had an iPad that could handle it then where's the harm? I'm actually wanting to bring my iPad synths into Ableton on my Mac. My Mac can handle higher sample rates so again...How does it hurt to at least offer an option for HQ? Older iPads can stick with 44.1K/16bit, newer iPad should have options. iOS already supports 48K and 96K.
Hey @Holiday, as you are clearly pointing out, it is not an issue with iOS, the infrastructure is there!
You would have to speak with the individual developers of the synth apps. Some of whom frequent this forum and take many notes. And also get up to date with the iOS limitations (at present). You made a good start by coming here.
I totally understand your point, but as you said you are new to iPad music. For some of us who are not (new) we have endured a lot of less-quality, less this, less that for years. But we have also grown with it and stuck with it. (Remember what we have today on the iPad started with a Phone, a Phone!)
Most of us here own PC's and Mac's and some of us have left them behind to some extent, in favour of the touch screen and mobility. However some musicians regularly switch back and forth.
Things are only getting better, what cannot be done (as yet) is do-able on the afore mentioned platforms. (And vice versa).
As for kids listening to music via crappy MP3's, hehe! I'm no kid! :-)
We have to keep up with the times.
If you listen to the radio playing current music, you (or I) would have no idea if it's 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 96kHz or even 192kHz... :-)
If it take some specialised equipment/software or a need to be in a certain environment to hear the difference, then... well..
"Music is the only art form we can't see"..
We may at times get too technical, and forget to be more Musical..
@KING777 well said
Yes. Not just kids, it's society. Get on a bus or train in the morning and half those are wearing ear buds listening to their phones. Those that travel by car might plug an iPod or mp3 player in.
I'm not against higher bit/ sample rates. I'd like 32-96 to be the standard. I also create music on a PC, it's not a bad one, it's off line and i only use it for Cubase / Reason And i can't run a full project live.. At some point i have to bounce to audio. Now if i were to use higher sample and bit rates, my projects would be near half the size before bouncing for a very small improvement in quality.. Then upload to soundcloud !!
For me 24 bit is important for headroom when i want to do heavy math/processing on it. I prefer today 24bit 44.1khz. For creating impulse responses or cinematic things you need mostly higher rates. However, why give us not the choice. If some people (like me) want higher bit and sample rates.... just give it to them and don't tell us why we doesn't need it.....
I should try to listen music this way.....
http://thesubpac.com
...maybe the hidden low frequencies get noticed then too
@thesoundtestroom and @RUncELL, nice!
Yes I must also add that where we are today with iOS (even with its bugs) is greeeeeeat. Nothing is perfect, PC and Mac have their issues too.
We could also talk about frequencies, hidden, inaudible, 432Hz etc.
But what I do know is, that there are many times, whilst using my iPad music apps, when I will suddenly shout out "WOW!".. or some equivalent. :-) :-)
In the mean time we just have to use what we've got, on many levels.
We have to appreciate what we have! 2 years ago we would have only dreamt of some of the things we can now do with the iPad!
iOS is getting there, as in, catching up. Everything takes time! @Cinebient, we will get the choice eventually.
At the moment most audio comes down (or up) to 16bit 44.1kHz.
Similarly, 4, 8, 16, 24, 32, 48, 64, 128... and now with unlimited tracks on mixers etc, well... we have come a long way in the music world on a whole. But it does not matter how many tracks you want to have, it all comes back down to 2...
Left and Right. (Right!)
;-)
Not when i need surround sound
I would agree with most of your statements but i don't be able to do really much more with my iPad Air and all the apps i have (and i have them all;) as i have done with my iPhone 4 years ago (it's for me more the opposite since iOS 8). So i'm just not so euphoric like the most here :P
Hey, every forum needs a crumpy old fart...
I would side on the higher resolution . Assume whatever it sounds like on your system or setup -- it could sound about 50% worse on someone elses setup.
Hehe, that's 'Grumpy!'.. :-)
Even 3D sound has to boil down to 2 channels.
The reason it is Left and Right is that most of us (on this planet) only have 2 ears, lol.
@Cinebient I had to read your comment again..
It sounds more to me like you have writers block.
Take a break....... or go use your iPad and apps in a place where you would not normally use them.
Or try to create something that you would not normally create, maybe a totally different genre. You can not have exhausted what is available. Maybe (like a lot of folk) you have tooooo many apps! :-)
"Dolby Atmos" can have 128 channels! (but of course you could see it as a 64 multiple stereo channel too... since you can feed up to 64 speakers with it). He he.
I realize there are device limitations but I think at this stage in development we can at least record audio from a sound generating iPad app at higher quality and choose to import into a DAW. Funny thing is one of the reasons I bought an iPad is to offload some of the processing that would normally happen on my mac. I guess, as I was hearing about how amazing iPad synths like Animoog and Magellan were, I didn't think they were being forced to cap out at a certain sample and bit rate. I mean...Analog modelling and you output at 44.1K 16bit? Hell even my drum samples I want at 24bit.
Mind you I am a bit of a snob when it comes to audio fidelity. I grew up in the time of the audiophile, not 128K internet streaming music. I can hear sounds I guess many can't or how deep and rich something sounds in comparison to something similar which sounds rather flat. I make the comparison to the fashion industry which promotes the ideal female body as the waif because clothes apparently hang better on a coat rack than on a woman with curves completely missing the point that clothes are for people. Many teenage girls want to be skinny like the fashion models in the magazines, as that is presented as the standard for feminine beauty, so they starve themselves despite having access to the greatest abundance of food ever known to humankind. So like the modern day music industry where music is expected to fit into the "skinny dress" MP3s or streaming music website's bandwidth allocations despite the fact we have the ability to hear so much more. We have this attitude of why bother for quality in the production of music when it's all gonna be broken down through some technological intestinal track and end up as crap anyways? Well...I think we can do better.
Heh, heh. My morning rant. At any rate I guess we'll have to see what comes of iOS music apps in the future.
Hehehehe, if I had 7,000 speakers around me, I could only hear 2 channels coming in. In fact, really, if you think deeply enough about it, it's only 1. ;-)
Well...Obviously what and how we hear is more complicated than that. In fact check out binaural beats where your brain does the mixing!
@Holiday said: "Mind you I am a bit of a snob when it comes to audio fidelity."
There is nothing wrong with that! :-) I myself would like to have only the best! Changes are sometimes started with just one person, maybe you could be the one too make our audio standards better, I mean on a whole. Why not..
Anything is possible!
Well in this case, we can't beat nature!
I will check it out.
And @Cinebient I will check out thesubpac.
Guys I hope we get over the frustrations, by having what we want.
But remember, wants and needs are different.
Just saying...
One more thing to add is, when Auria Pro comes along you will be able to, at least record the built-in Fabfilter synth in 96k, also any new plug-in synths that may come as IAP's with the new 'Pro'.
@KING777: I have no block at all (that i didn't much music lately has do to with other things). IOS limited me so much that i was looking for other options. I never did music myself or had any experience before i started with my iPhone 4, ThumbJam and NanoStudio. Now i can do the things i want (mostly) but i still would like to create stuff with iOS. Stuff i did before with iOS are broken. All the additional things like IAA, Audiobus are really great.... but to unstable like iOS itself. Then of course i need more cpu and ram
I still like iOS because it took me to music. But it feels for me still like 1 step forward, 1 1/2 back, 2 step forwards, 1 step back.... I also think the saturation in iOS is there. I can't think of "gamechanger" there anymore but i hope for improvements about this freaking iOS bugs. Of course i can't hope for wonders about a consumer device.
Maybe it is also since i began with iOS and then migrated to OS X while most people gone the other way
Once i had some experience with iOS and produced an album on my iPhone 4 (never got such things done with my iPad) i pushed it too the limit and was frustrated instead of having fun.... that felt wrong. Now that i saw what tools i can have i miss even more things on iOS because it shows me how easy things can be done and i just wonder why it's not possible on iOS...especially with the newest devices. Maybe one day apple cares more about music production on iOS...
Sorry, long post....less sense ;-D
He he, yeah but you could not assign a special sound to just 2-3 of your 7000 speakers then. There are new things on the way where you can hear things like you would sitting in a middle of a giant ball and you hear the sounds from every possible point. Our ear has 2 channels.... our brain billions
I think between @KING777 and @Cinebient we have the alpha and omega of the current iOS outlook and attitude
I do sense a period of 'come down' amongst folks. That time in the sweet shop where many kids realize they have randomly stuffed themselves and feel a little disoriented and sick
All of which leads to a feeling that they/we need to focus back on what it is we came here for to start with. My guess is this is part of the normal curve, especially for those of us who grew up in the music world focusing (for reasons of economy) on only one bit of kit at a time.
:-)
Quote: "Maybe one day apple cares more about music production on iOS..."
They should..
Writers block may not affect everyone in the same way. It may also be looked at as, not feeling creative. Sometimes one may not pay any attention to music at all.
We have a saying, "Too much of one thing, is not good".
Sometime the novelty can we worn off of something.
It's not what you got its how you use it.
Find and remember the reason/s you stated doing music. Why!
Does the reason why, out-weigh the technical?
@JohnnyGoodyear, I think we pressed 'Post Comment' at roughly the same time, with similar wording/essence. :-)
I'm walking always on the dark side of the moon
I'm very opti-mystic, in general. :-)
I hope Auria Pro brings back that 'Sweet' sweet-shop feeling..