Need a good MIDI Clock bars/beats/form structure display

Diggo

My group often uses layers of loops with different lengths combining 6 loopstations (multiple Loopy, VoiceLive Touch 2 and RC505) all sync'd to MIDI Clock from a master RC505 which provides pre-recorded drum/percussion loops used to form the foundations for each song.

We often record long loops in Loopy which give us our song form structure. For example, one of our "songs" has a 28 bar "form". The drum loops used for that song are 2 bars long - the MIDI Clock doesnt know about the "28 bars" and for various reasons we dont pre-configure the form length within the loopstations.

The long form lengths make it difficult for us to always know "where we are" at a particular point in the form. This problem could be easily solved by an app (or device) which displays bars and beats as large text which consumes the entire screen, or maybe a grid display. In the example I described above, the grid would contain the 28 bar form. The app would derive it's clock from the RC505 master and we would somehow tell the app to show the bars/beats within a grid which accommodates 28 bars (a counter would suffice if grid isnt suitable)

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Diggo

Matt_Fletcher_2000

Mmm. What would you run this app on? iPhone or iPad?

I don't know of an exactly suitable app. But some ideas are:

• use Vidibox which loops video to a midi clock. Make custom videos which contain a counter or incrementally filling grid.

• use a DAW like beatmaker2 which will loop any number of bars to a midi clock and watch its progress along the timeline

• use the pattern/song mode of a drum app and maybe zoom in on that portion of the screen using the "accessibility features" of iOS which I believe lets you zoom in on a portion of your iOS device screen.

u0421793

An Arduino driving a giant LED display and also having a midi shield could be the master clock too. It’d need filling with programming though.

Diggo

@Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
Mmm. What would you run this app on? iPhone or iPad?

>

We are willing to use any device which fills the brief, provided it doesnt cost a fortune.

We perform close together so it needs to be readable from a few feet away, or maybe we can each use our own iPhones. If using a phone or tablet for it we'll dedicate the device to the app.....or (if we can identify an app which fits the bill) we'll use a device which can do it....and that's all we'd use it for.

I don't know of an exactly suitable app. But some ideas are:

• use Vidibox which loops video to a midi clock. Make custom videos which contain a counter or incrementally filling grid.

>

never occurred to me to do that - interesting idea!

> - use a DAW like beatmaker2 which will loop any number of bars to a midi clock and watch its progress along the timeline

Sorta kinda maybe? Will investigate this.

> - use the pattern/song mode of a drum app and maybe zoom in on that portion of the screen using the "accessibility features" of iOS which I believe lets you zoom in on a portion of your iOS device screen.

Didnt think of this either - will investigate

Does anyone know if one of the existing iOS MIDI utility apps can do this? There are lots of MIDI utilities and I'm unfamiliar with most of them. We try to avoid running anything we dont need, which does have the downside of leaving us a bit ignorant about what's available. We are roots musicians and dont have a lifetime of MIDI/sequencer experience to draw upon. That said, we have persevered on this looping path for a while now and have solid sync for 6 loopstations all doing different things, along with two guitar synths, FCB1010s and an X32 digital mixer routing the lot. And did I mention iConnectMIDI2+, iConnectMIDI4+, iConnectAUDIO4+, Tascam iU2, Alesis IODock, Roland Handsonic, Korg Wavedrum and on and on it goes....

NOTE: We also have a couple of Windows 8.1 tablets which we currently use for lyrics, plus a Windows 7 laptop which runs Kontakt. We are still a bit undecided on where we prefer to run samplers, due to the need for a panic option when using guitar synths. Finding iOS apps with good support for All Notes Off via footpedal MIDI is like a needle/haystack equation!

So we are willing to go down difficult paths in our pursuit of a concept which works really well for us: live looping of on the fly roots music using the tools normally used by electronic musicians and DJs.

But we are becoming tired of the time it takes to discover, learn and test a gazillion apps and/or devices to see if they do what it says on the tin (or if they can be bent into suiting our needs). And it often takes even longer to nail down wther the app can handle MIDI Clock Sync. That's why I'm hoping to rely a little on the wisdom of the audiobus crowd!

I should also say that Michael has been fantastic in his commitment to working on MIDI Clock within Loopy over the part year. His new iOS sync engine is very, very cool.

Thanks!

Diggo

Diggo

I have no idea what caused the font sizes to change in the above post - sorry!

Matt_Fletcher_2000

@Diggo said:
I have no idea what caused the font sizes to change in the above post - sorry!

Well I think you've come to the right place!

Loopy has a rock solid sync. And a pretty big, bold display if you restrict to 6 loops. You can also tap tempo into it. And control it wonderfully from external controllers.

I'd be tempted to simply have loopy up on a screen (iPad if you can stretch to it) with one of the circles looping a 24 bar loop. Or whatever your song structure length is. You should be able to see quite easily roughly where the pulse is and so judge where you are. If necessary you can zoom in on just one of the loops via iOS accessibility settings.

That would be simple, and probably the most rock solid thing. Maybe try it on an iPhone then only upgrade to an iPad if you're happy.

@supadom might be able to give you further advice on loopy syncing with your live set up.

Hmtx

First off, "live looping of on the fly roots music using the tools normally used by electronic musicians and DJs." I think I need a soundcloud link in order to full grasp this ;-) sounds intriguing.

I also thought that Loopy's screen would be the closest thing to providing what you want. I wonder if you could hook up a iPhone with HDMI out to a TV and mirror Loopy's screen out to the TV.

You would have to set up pre-determined sessions with the bars already set at 28 or whatever needed. Also Loopy would have to MIDI sync over wi-fi if you are using HDMI out to a TV.

supadom

Thanks @Matt_Fletcher_2000 for naming me but I wouldn't know that kind of stuff. When I hear structure I run a mile. This is exactly what I like about looping: to be able to come in and out as I please without the need to remember much. Free fall is the way and there's no going back

Diggo

Hi guys
Thanks for the responses! FWIW, we've been using Loopy since forever, although we had to love Loopy without using it "for real" while Michael nailed down rock solid external sync. Loopy has pretty much always had great internal sync (i.e. Loopy has been great as sync master for a long time) but syncing Loopy to external clock didnt become sufficiently rock solid for live performance until v1.4.10. If you wanna understand why, have a look at Michael's videos documenting his work on the Masterpiece version of Loopy and his new sync engine.

For multiple reasons it hasnt been optimal for us to use Loopy as an indicator of where the form is at a particular point in time. This is one of the negatives associated with the display aspects of Loopy being continuous. A "grid view" would be more suitable. That said, I'll revisit this and see if I can find a way. It does seem very obvious that it would be much better to derive the result from within our existing set of tools instead of introducing a new component.

@htmx, yep, we know we could pre-set Loopy to the form length but that doesnt work ideally for us either. We've certainly tried it that way. We mostly prefer to use Loopy with the length set to 1 bar, as the workflow which that allows is much better for dealing with mistakes and other issues which arise when something doesnt go according to plan. Additionally, we don't stick to the form structure for the entire song - we often drop into extended freeform improvising over short loops before eventually returning to the original form structure. That's not impossible to do with Loopy, but there are some significant consequences if something unexpected occurs. Maximum flexibility and rapid recovery when something unexpected occurs is our goal with Loopy. That said, I'll revisit this aspect and try to approach it with a fresh perspective. Maybe the video output from the IODock could be useful after all!

The consequences of glitches or mistakes can be disastrous when coordinating multiple musicians using multiple loopstations. The risk factors are multiplied when using very long form lengths - this factor is the final hurdle we need to overcome.

Regarding videos of our group, we are working on making clips once we've really nailed down our setup. Working in this manner is a huge amount of fun for us and has revitalized our love of performing (we are very experienced pro musicians in our mid 50s!). Although it's taken a lot of brain bursting focus on the minutiae of syncing multiple loop stations while also using MIDI guitars and controlling them all with FCB1010 footboards, the end result is worth the effort.

Thanks again for responding.

Diggo

Diggo

@supadom - yep, I agree with regard to "freeform" - we also prefer to not be boxed in, but due to singing and other factors which arise when multiple musicians are all looping, sometimes structure is needed. That's the only aspect we need to optimize - we already have the freeform aspects sorted.

supadom

Sorry @Diggo did not mean to sound condescending. Good luck with your project. It would be cool to hear what you're guys doing. Sounds interesting.