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Comments
Thank you.
I think if I do go there then I would need to be working together with an actual coder.
We would get there much faster and easier.
If or once I get a really solid concept then I'll go for it however
right now I've got dRambo for creating performance instruments
and some of the pieces I've put together could actually
work as standalone apps in themselves.
Anyways I digress, this thread is proving rather interesting.
If you want to make a living off iOS music apps, after years of development and hard work, don't be crazy and expect more than $1500 / month, tops!
JavaScript. It's everywhere, can be used to script in many environments, has insanely good runtimes now that rival C/C++ in performance, and you're prepared to use web technologies, which can be used to build anything nowadays (trust me, I know -- I HAVE built my ENTIRE SOFTWARE STACK using web technologies 😂)
EDIT: By "best" I don't mean "most elegant" or "most well-designed". I don't program in JavaScript myself, I've designed my own programming language and a transpiler that outputs JavaScript. By "best" here I mean "most versatile" and "future-proof".
In many cases is the runtime performance rivaling C++ because internally it has been transpiled to C++, or leveraging C++ libraries? I think this is where it becomes muddy for me when determining these things. I have a lot of projects involving Eurorack firmware. There's no point in me writing Javascript which is later just transpiled into C++ if I can simply write the C++. This is a niche scenario, but for the purpose of this discussion I'm curious to know your thoughts.
I could never get a good workflow working with JavaScript directly on the iPad.
WebMIDI wasn’t possible on the chrome or the safari version on iOS. But it was worth looking into, especially with the chat I had in Sweden with the Klevgrand developers earlier this year.
My take - I like WebMIDI, and Tone.js. It’s just not for me.
I did see a ton of amazing scripts using the scriptable and Jayson apps but once I realized I could run a decent Python using Pythonista, I stuck with that and never looked back.
But I do love messing around with json files and changing the nature of a project by adjusting a few parameters.
Yes. I'm not positive, but I think Swift Playgrounds might also be the only way to write an actual "app" on an iPad.
Not sure I would recommend trying to use an iPad to actually write an iOS/iPadOS app, though. People should be aware that for any serious iOS/iPadOS programming they're going to want to do it on a Mac, probably using xcode. That might sound strange to someone new to programming, but something to be aware of.
Also, USE CHATGPT! Don't use it for coding. But do use it for asking questions. It will mostly be a huge help. (Yes, partly, it will steer you wrong, but so also will people who respond to you online. ChatGPT can be a huge help. Don't start out trying to program with it. Start out by asking it your questions, as well as by posting your questions online. I think you'll find that ChatGPT is a valuable resource.)
That is correct.
Also 100% correct. Anything more than a few minutes in Playgrounds should be enough to dispel that notion. Also, it would be pretty much a miracle if you could write a music app anything like what we're used to here, and almost certainly impossible to write an AUv3 plugin.
But, for an early beginner to programming, it serves very well as a teaching tool for basic concepts. If you can stomach the cutesy kid level teaching approach.
Yes, definitely use ChatGPT. I save tons of hours asking questions to GPTs instead of "normal" internet search these days. It just gets to the point faster. It helps to know what to ask, though...
IMO There isn’t really a single language for all purposes … sure you could do pretty much anything in C or C++ if you have the time and energy and knowhow. But many languages/frameworks are designed and optimised for certain purposes, so your choice depends on what kind of solutions you want to build with it.
But it was worth looking into, especially with the chat I had in Sweden with the Klevgrand developers earlier this year.
Klevgrand allowed you into their studio!!!
What was Danny thinkin!!!
(Jk ofc)
I've never done it--kindly discount accordingly--but I would start small so I can have fun. I already understand modular synthesis pretty well, which is the most abstracted level of musical programming. I'd take one step down in abstraction at a time. So my next step would be to learn Pure Data. I think the Mutable Instruments guy used to start off his projects in PD. And there are ios apps that allow you to load some PD projects on the ipad.
Very much agree as far as PD goes. It didn’t sound much like it was too usable on iOS yet. Hopefully I’m wrong on that point. Even getting into it on desktop would be helpful.
Audulus 4 can also do a lot and lets you go very deep into the DSP side, or put bigger modules together. It might be worth checking into at least by way of understanding the range of options available to you (even for just learning).
If you want to do audio, it will have to run on a realtime thread in iOS, which means that you'll have to write (at least your audio code) in a realtime-safe "non blocking language". The most obvious choice for this is C (not C++).
For UI my personal recommendation would be to skip 3rd party frameworks and stick to pure native Apple stuff. I'm still using Objective-C with UIKit, but today there are probably other choices.
In my experience, if you stick with Apple's own native libraries, the chances of stuff breaking with iOS updates are fairly small. Once you start using JUCE and things like that it becomes a crapshoot every summer.
Agree with using Apple-native libraries and frameworks. Starting from ground zero, today, I would guess that Swift/SwiftUI is easier to learn than Objective-C/UIKit...but that's just a guess after many years of using both.
I'm curious about using pure C for audio code. What's the scope of the audio code in this context? I have core synthesis code (the actual generator functions) in C, but I find it very hard to not use C++. Apple's template examples also use C++ for a lot of AUv3 boilerplate, although C seems to be mixed in freely. A lot of examples I've seen while learning audio coding use "C" in the sense that they are using C++ and avoiding classes. I see this a lot in VCV Rack module code, and in Eurorack firmware. I'm sure not everyone does it that way, so I'd like to know more about how you approach it.
Good point.
Generally any parts of your code that get called from the audio thread must be non-locking and not do any dynamic memory allocation. If you do anyway, your code may run fine, until it doesn't, and then the issues are a real pain to debug.
You are correct that some C++ is realtime safe. But 80% isn't, so you really have to know what you're doing. That's why I generally recommend beginners to stick to C because it's really hard to figure out which C++ bits to use and which to avoid. I you can solve an issue in clean C, it's probably safe.
(I actually use some C++ myself, but I make sure that any object instances are instantiated off the realtime thread, no memory is allocated during realtime execution, etc.)
E.g. it's tempting to use C++ vectors, because who doesn't like resizable arrays? But that's asking for trouble, as are many of the most convenient and alluring C++ patterns
Here's an old (but gold) blog by our resident hero @Michael , which is always a good read for anyone wanting to start in audio software development:
https://atastypixel.com/four-common-mistakes-in-audio-development/
It is internally compiled ("Just-In-Time compilation" or JIT) -- if using C/C++ as an intermediate or directly to machine code, I don't know. Yes, that's why it's so fast.
Sorry I have no idea about Eurorack, but it's reasonable to assume that JavaScript is useless there, yeah 😄
Oh I don't think you can use an iPad for serious software development. I was just generally commenting on the programming language question, not specifically on iPad or even for music app development
Yes, last time I checked, Safari didn't support WebMIDI (but that's not surprising, Safari is "the new MSIE" or has actually already "surpassed" that classic status... but not in a good way).
I have never used Tone.js as I tend to avoid frameworks and libraries like the plague.
Python is definitely a more elegant language than JavaScript! 😃 Though probably not as much general-purpose usefulness. And the runtimes also tend to be slower.
Yes, JSON is a good general-purpose data serialization format.
I remember during my first semester of University being able to grasp the concepts of programming when we used MATLAB scripting. We learned all the basics of programming, and they used it as a tool to teach us object oriented programming.
Next semester was C, and it was a nightmare for me and most of the class members. Once we got to pointers, and memory allocation, half of the class dropped out.
I tackled it, and a few other dedicated programming classes, and that’s what gave me the core concepts that have stayed with me to date. We used C for an automated crane, paired it with MPLABX to program a PIC microcontroller for a self driving car with a robotic gripper attached. It was great, then I realized I could do the same thing on Arduino and make it easy for beginners to learn it.
All this to say, C is not a beginner friendly way to do iOS. It is very easy to lose motivation sitting in one place trying to magically figure out how to solve a problem.
You can always optimize programs, use different libraries, and programming languages to get similar results. Just like we produce using GarageBand, Logic Pro, Pro Tools, etc…, there are many tools to get you results.
I’m of the school of thought to get the work started as simple as possible, then decide if you want to make it more advanced, or you want to do other cool things, knowing you’ve done what you set out to do.
Plus, we’re in the age of AI. I’ve literally sent my old VHDL code to ChatGPT and it explained to me exactly what I was doing at the time and gave me recommendations on how to do it easily, with modern technology.
SPEAKER PROJECT : UNIVERSITY
This was 10 years ago…
And I learned a lot of lessons this year. It is very easy to have ideas. People have a ton of them. It’s the way you solve the problem, and execution that matters.
I think that if you consider “C” to be too difficult to learn, perhaps making performance-optimized audio plugins is not a realistic goal?
Not everything in this world is easy mode, unfortunately, and sometimes you have to put in the work.
Absolutely, I understand your perspective, and that’s why I recommended starting with simpler options before delving deeper. Jumping straight into C is definitely a valid approach for some, but it’s not the only path.
As someone with 10 years of experience programming in C, I’d never advise beginners—whether it’s my kids or anyone exploring programming for fun robot, or software design projects—to start there. Tools like Scratch, Python, or even ChatGPT offer a far gentler introduction. It’s not about underestimating their ability to learn but about recognizing that there’s no need to reinvent the wheel. Once they grasp the basics and build confidence, they can dive deeper into areas like performance optimization or lower-level programming when it makes sense.
Thanks. Definitely the ability to compile it, vs. using it interpreted in a browser, is powerful! I'm always tempted to revisit this, as it's a language that's used everywhere as you noted. Is your own language public, or something you just use internally for yourself? Would it be beginner friendly?
Thanks for expanding on that.
I get what you're saying about C++ leaving a lot of room for breaking the realtime rules. It would be pretty hard to debug an issue caused by using a vector in a realtime thread, for sure...not something I'd want to start my programming journey with. In that light, recommending C makes sense.
These are interesting points. I would argue that in many ways, C represents the basics better than newer languages. But our expectations from software have become so large that it's overwhelming to imagine how to create modern apps with it, especially if starting from zero.
Exactly. As time goes on, we gain new tools and ways to solve problems. Things scale in scope.
I remember learning Assembly Language in my early programming days. There’s no way in hell I’m ever doing a project in assembly. Rollercoaster tycoon is an amazing game, yeah. But, it’s also hard to maintain unless you have that skillset, and as time goes on, it’s harder to find people who would dedicate a lot of time to learn ancient code.
C is low level enough that you can get a lot
done, and it can be taught, but for a lot of times, I’d rather use Python to prove a concept or prototype, then when I have the go-ahead, I can refine it using C.
Make the most of the time you have. Solve the problem and go to the next phase.
Yeah, this song has been on my playlist. Arcane is an insanely great show.
Wise words! Except that as a beginner, you usually have no idea how much work will hide behind the choice of a certain way to go. Things that look simple at first sight might need quite an amount of deep diving into code or even re-think the whole concept once you've hit the first road block, and I believe that audio software is a great example here 😉
On the other hand, if all you want is a rough proof of concept and your app doesn't need to be maintained in the future, there are certainly a number of toolkits and libraries to get you going.
Maybe @mikejohn can elaborate a little about what he has in mind?
Sorry, not public or open-source... is it beginner-friendly? 🤔 maybe more so than Javascript, as it's far cleaner and more expressive... it's actually a CoffeeScript dialect, so much of the credit has to go to the revolutionary thinking and work of Jeremy Ashkenas!
First of all thanks for all the responses .. I definitely have a better sense of what it takes to build an app than I did before making the post.
I’m reluctant to get into too much detail at the moment, but one of the “simpler” ideas I have isn’t an audio generator, but rather a kind of global organization system for presets .. something to help the unreliable memory remember where (synth + bank + preset) that perfect bass sound is, for example.
I would say to save presets on your favorite DAW and go from there. I personally save audio presets on Drambo, Audiobus 3, or screenshot apps and label them like
BASS - Southern Solace
LEAD - Rave Master
Then I just open Audiobus 3, and open the presets I saved and continue from where I stopped at.
Nowadays, I’ve gone through a lot of my favorite synths, and I’ve started migrating them all into Drambo. That way, I can run it as an AUv3 and share them with others who don’t have the app but want the sound I’ve made.
But if you want to actually do that project, I’d say this. Start by seeing what’s out there first
https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/find-that-sound/id6469339032
Look for iOS and desktop tools that do similar things and see what works and what doesn’t work. Write out the exact feature you want, and how you want it to work. For example: I want a way to save the state of an application.
Use Apple Keynote or Google Slides or Microsoft PowerPoint to make a visual of how the app will look like. And what I mean is each of the menus of the app. Plan how you want it to work. Best part is since it’s already on an iPhone and iPad, you can test out portrait and landscape mode. This is what they call UX/UI. But honestly, it means, “make stuff look and feel good to use”
Use Python and ChatGPT to make the algorithm. I’m serious on this. It’s the fastest way to begin. Say something like
“ what is a simple way to organize presets on iOS? How can I accomplish this on iOS”
“Make a code that does that using Python..”
It will give you some rough ideas. It will even write code for you.
You can also do the same on C. I recommend starting it first with Python because it’s a lot more forgiving on syntax and you can quickly understand the code.
Then have it rewrite your Python code into C, and start optimizing it.
Again, this won’t be your final code. Developers are constantly adding new features or having to deal with compatibilities, or finding new ways to solve a problem.
This is what I recommend, but there are other ways to solve the same problem. Break it down into small steps, or even ask ChatGPT to give you a step by step plan on how to tackle it based on what you know. I wish you great success.
One one interpretation this app has nothing to do with music, audio or midi. It's just a simple little database app, where you store little bits of patch/preset info and look them up later. (This is actually probably more suitable for beginning programming.) Is that what you mean? Or something else?
Yeah pretty much .. seems a more realistic place to start than an all out music app
Are you already a Mac user? You can download and start with Xcode for free, and dip your toes in to see how it goes.
Make a new project, pick the "App" template (it will ask you to pick a template), and see if you can get it to run on your iPhone or iPad. This template produces the standard "hello world" using SwiftUI. If that process doesn't dissuade you, start working with ChatGPT/similar to get something going with:
To see what would happen, I gave ChatGPT the following prompt:
"Please generate a simple app template that is written in Swift, using SwiftUI and SwiftData. I want to have a simple database, and the UI should show the contents of this database."
To be fair, the code it gave me didn't compile but it was pretty close to working. You'd need to think through and make a better prompt, but what's important is to tell it the right frameworks to use.