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Low Volume Through External Audio Interface
When I use the built-in audio interface in my iRig Keys I/O, I get plenty of clean volume to my amp. I have both an older iPad (Lightning) and a newer iPad (USB-C) and both types of the proprietary cables from IK Multimedia that everyone hates and it always sounds great.
When I use a different MIDI keyboard and an external audio interface, the volume to my amp is much lower. I have tried two different external audio interfaces (the Zoom AMS-22 and the Joyo Momix Pro) and the volume is much lower even though everything else is unchanged. I am testing with both setups side-by-side using an organ app that is not velocity-sensitive (to eliminate any possible differences between the keyboards). The built-in audio interface on the iRig Keys I/O is significantly louder than either external audio interface.
Does anyone know why this might be happening and have any suggestions to fix the problem?
Comments
You could check the iPad volume control. It may be affecting the low volume interfaces.
As soon as I connect an audio interface, the iPad volume buttons no longer work. Are you referring to a different volume control?
I experienced this with my Behringer U-Phoria 404HD as well. Everything would sound normal volume going in, mic, synths, etc, but playback volume was much lower, making it a terrible experience when trying to write loops against each other.
However, as soon as I switched to my Babyface Pro FS, the audio volume in and out are at equal levels, allowing me to cleanly record and hear the loops at the same volume without interrupting my flow at all - exact same project, no other settings changed at all. I fact, several clips I had boosted to be at roughly the same level blasted through on the Babyface once connected until I realized I had adjusted the gain, and returning them back to zero got everything in line.
I was very happy to have found that to be true for at least one interface I already have, as its one of the only reasons this works for me.
So it seems to me that some audio interfaces are just better designed for this for whatever reason. Maybe some have some sort of adjustment to account for this, but I could not find anything at all that worked with the Behringer, and I've since seen posts with others who are aware of this behavior specifically with those devices, though I'm not sure about others. But this issue does seem to rear it's head for people with different interfaces regularly.
It sounds like the output levels of the interface need adjusting or calibrated. Not all preamps in all interfaces are calibrated the same.
I outlined a process here for loopy pro but if applies to any app whose mixer uses dBFS for its monitoring:
https://wiki.loopypro.com/Troubleshooting_Audio_Problems#Volume_Calibration
Thank you for sharing your experience. It is good to hear that some interfaces don't have this problem. I wish there was an interface that was closer in price to the Zoom AMS-22 ($80 USD) rather than the Babyface Pro FS (considerably more than $80 USD).
ꚲ𖥕ꚶ ꛘ𖠢𖠢𖦧 𖧥ꛘ 𖧥ꚶ𖦧𖥣𖥕 𖥣ꛘ𖢧𖠢𖦪𖨨𖧥𖥐𖠢 𖢧𖦙𖧥𖢧 “ꛪ𖥕𖠢𖨚 𖢧𖥕 11” ꛚ𖥣𖢉𖠢 𖢧𖦙𖠢 𖨚𖡮𖥣ꛘ𖧥ꛚ 𖢧𖧥𖡮 𖧥𖢑𖡮𖨚. 𖥣𖢧’𖨚 ꚶ𖨚ꚶ𖧥ꛚꛚꚲ 𖨗ꚶ𖨚𖢧 𖧥 𖢉ꛘ𖥕𖧳 𖥐𖦙𖧥ꛘꛪ𖠢𖨚 𖥣ꛘ 𖢑ꚲ 𖠢𖧦𖡮𖠢𖦪𖥣𖠢ꛘ𖥐𖠢 𖢧𖥕 ꛪ𖠢𖢧 𖢧𖦙𖧥𖢧 𖠢𖧦𖢧𖦪𖧥 𖧳𖥕𖥕𖨚𖢧 𖥕ꛘ 𖢧𖦙𖠢 𖦧𖥣𖧥ꛚ𖨚. 𖢧𖦙𖠢 ꛪ𖧥𖥣ꛘ 𖧉𖥣𖦧ꛪ𖠢𖢧 𖥣ꛘ 𖧥ꚶ𖢑 𖦪𖠢𖧥ꛚꛚꚲ 𖦙𖠢ꛚ𖡮𖨚 𖢑𖠢 𖧉𖦙𖠢ꛘ 𖨚𖥕𖢑𖠢𖢧𖦙𖥣ꛘꛪ 𖨗ꚶ𖨚𖢧 𖥣𖨚ꛘ’𖢧 ꛚ𖥕ꚶ𖦧 𖠢ꛘ𖥕ꚶꛪ𖦙 𖧥ꛘ𖦧 𖥣 𖧉𖧥ꛘ𖢧 𖢧𖥕 𖨨𖥣𖧦 𖥣𖢧. ꚲ𖥕ꚶ 𖦙𖧥𖡥𖠢 𖠢𖡥𖠢ꛘ 𖨚𖢧𖦪𖥣ꛘꛪ ꛪ𖧥𖥣ꛘ 𖧉𖥣𖦧ꛪ𖠢𖢧𖨚 𖥣ꛘ 𖨚𖠢𖦪𖥣𖠢𖨚, 𖡮𖧥𖦪𖧥ꛚꛚ𖠢ꛚ 𖥕𖦪 𖥣ꛘ 𖥕𖡮𖡮𖥕𖨚𖥣𖢧𖥣𖥕ꛘ (𖦪𖧥𖥣𖨚𖠢 𖢧𖦙𖠢 ꛪ𖧥𖥣ꛘ 𖧥ꛘ𖦧 𖢧𖦙𖠢ꛘ 𖦧𖦪𖥕𖡮 𖥣𖢧 𖧳𖧥𖥐𖢉 𖢧𖥕 𖧥𖦧𖦧 𖨚𖡮𖠢𖥐𖥣𖧥ꛚ 𖨨𖥕𖦪𖢑𖨚 𖥕𖨨 𖦧𖥣𖨚𖢧𖥕𖦪𖢧𖥣𖥕ꛘ, 𖥐ꛚ𖥣𖡮𖡮𖥣ꛘꛪ 𖧥ꛘ𖦧 𖦙𖠢𖧥𖦧𖡮𖦙𖥕ꛘ𖠢 𖠢𖧥𖦪 𖦧𖧥𖢑𖧥ꛪ𖠢 𖡮𖦪𖧥ꛘ𖢉𖨚.
Thanks @wim (see his reply below)
Like this?
Nope. I still don't get it. 😎
You know, the more I go back and look at pages online - and there are a large amount for low volume issues with a few Behringers specifically - the more variation I find. It's entirely possible that there is an adjustment that would resolve the issues with the Behringer specifically if I followed some suggestions across forum comments, a handful of links for a few of which are at the bottom, but it doesn't seem likely directly from the front panel of the device itself.
For a lot of people hitting the issues on Windows, it seems one of two things sometimes resolved the issue: a) an ASIO driver update from Behringer, b) using a custom tool in Windows that exposes some parameters not available on the device itself and are related to a master volume setting that was frequently defaulted to 50%.
As a class compliant device on the iPad, for a lot of people it seems the issue vary between different iPad models and OS versions, but one thing that stuck out is that apparently, as with Windows, this Behringer and a few others take their volume cue from the OS itself, and apparently people have had to go in and set the volume explicitly or use the volume buttons on the iPad to get it to level.
Like others, I've never seen that with an ASIO audio interface before, and have not used many in class compliant mode. Perhaps if I plug it back in I might find the issues resolvable. Otherwise the problem was that if you adjust the overall volume, it adjusts it both for the audio from the inserts and from the iPad, so the levels are still consistently inconsistent. If you turn the gain for the audio inserts down, it doesn't help because then you just record the audio lower. I tried every variation of mix and control that are on the device, but it did not appear possible to get the levels even.
I don't know how likely it is that other interfaces might experience the exact same issue, but beings as interfaces only work in class-compiant mode on the iPad, it makes me wonder if a lot of people that hit this issue similarly across devices might be experiencing the same thing ... I never thought to check the iPad volume for the device when plugged in - I certainly didn't have to for the RME Babyface, but maybe it affects several device the same way.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Behringer/comments/119kfa6/umc204hd_output_volume_from_usb_source_way_too_low/
https://forum.loopypro.com/discussion/26334/behringer-umc-404-hd-issues
https://community.musictribe.com/discussion/solutions/10/0/157518/behringer-umc404hd-low-output-from-xlrs-and-headphone-output
https://community.gigperformer.com/t/output-levels-of-behringer-interfaces-404hd-and-1820/19813/12
Per the response from @espiegel123 and further digging, it's entirely possible that there is a way to resolve the issue with the Behringer and other devices in class compliant mode that work similarly. I could certainly be wrong, but like many others across many threads, I don't think it's in issue in my case that can be resolved directly from the front panel of the Behringer itself, but apprently could easily be that I just need to adjust the volume for the device on the iPad, and maybe that is the case for others too.
It never occured to me that would even be a thing to check in the OS separate from the audio interface front panel or DAW audio control, I've never needed to with an audio interface in any other context before, but admittedly have not needed to use them solely as class compliant devices either, coming from the Windows world.
Just a thought out of the blue…..is there some kind of impedence thing going on from your interface to the amp? This is what it sounds like from what you’ve described. How are you outputting the signal from the interface to the amplifier? What sort of amplifier are you using?
I assume this was meant for @jamietopol and not me, but checking ...
I am going to try a third interface I have and see if that is any different. Korg PlugKey.
Have you tried turning up the output gain on your interfaces that sound too quiet. Have you tried calibrating the outputs?
I ran an experiment with 3 audio interfaces.
Setup:
Results:
1. Zoom AMS-22: 60 dB
2. Korg PlugKey: 65 dB
3. iRig Keys I/O 49: 90 dB (wow!)
As far as I can tell, none of the 3 audio interfaces have any controls other than a basic "output volume" knob. The Zoom and iRig both have gain knobs, but they only affect the microphone input.
Before I say these things, I want to say first that I'm not asking you to do more work on top of this just to validate my curiosity.
It doesn't surprise me that different interfaces have different input volumes. I do wonder if any of them are affected by iPad volume buttons or global device volume as has been indicated with some of the Behringer interfaces.
However, I'm even more curious as to whether the input volume is consistent with the output volume, including for headphones. I've experienced that with a Behringer interfaces, though granted I haven't plugged it back in again to do further testing against a seamlessly working Babyface.
I think at some point it would be potentially handy to have a Google sheet with a matrix of audio interface max input and output volumes to iPad devices (maybe a second for interfaces to iOS version).
Don’t expect different interfaces to have their knobs calibrated his same.
What was the level of the signal you were sending to the interfaces? My recommendation is to use a test signal whose output reads 0 dB on your host’s meter (assuming the meter uses dBFS)
You should check the input and output calibration separately.
In the digital domain you can control volumes by simple math and never clip.
So this discussion is about the D-to-A hardware. Preamps intend to provide a nice clean (well above the noise floor) signal to be amplified.
My issue tends to be the volume supplied to headphones and I tend to use open back headphones to get more volume.
Adding extra gain at any stage with digital helps but you will hit a limit if the circuitry. There are typical “op amp” chips (405?) used. The power supply in the device is a factor and 5V with low amp specs was the USB standard but newer IOS devices are adding more amps to make the external devices more powerful in these regards.
A headphone amp is probably the right fix in some respects like me with hearing loss.
Well, yes it was.
It looks like the information relating to the question I was asking has now been provded.
I just looked into the power capabilities of USB-A and USB-C and an audio interface that is powered via USB-C should be able to request more power to provide more amplification. Of course, some high end gear will just have its own power supply.
A device that is designed to support Lightning and USB-C power might be limited to the power supply specs of USB-A even when connected via USB-C. USB-C devices negotiate the power delivery specs at connection time. So, just having USB-C might not make for a pre-amp that can drive a louder output… but maybe, it can ask for something closer to the higher power ranges of PD 3.0 with 100 Watts (5 amps * 20 volts) or PD 3.1 240 Watts (5A x 48v).
Thanks for sharing this additional information. I was using an external power source for all 3 of the audio interfaces I tested. I previously used a 4th audio interface that also had external power and also had a relatively lower volume output.
The "outlier" in my tests is the iRig Keys I/O (90 dB vs. 60 - 65 dB with everything else I tried).
I wonder if their stand-alone audio interfaces also work really well with an iPad (e.g., the iRig Pro Duo I/O).
Also, perhaps there is more to their proprietary cables than we realize (although everyone hates these cables).
I’m wondering if the output specs are +4db or -10db on the interfaces? The consistency in differences appears to indicate this. ie +4db output on the iRig and -10db output on the other two. Go through a couple of amplifier stages and you’ll easily see a 30dB difference in levels between them.
OK. So I went and read a couple of manuals and these are the key specs for the comparison.
iRig
Maximum Output Level: +13 dBu into 600 Ohms balanced load
Zoom AMS 22
Maximum output level +10 dBu (at 0 dBFS)
Output impedance 100 Ω
and Korg are kind enough not to provide this kind of information in their manual
I think this will help to explain your volume differences though.
The KC 110 looks rather nice.
This is really helpful (and interesting). Thank you for the research.
The Roland KC-110 is a terrific small amp and very versatile. I think Roland has replaced it with the (identical?) KC-220.