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My proposal is to make ICE accountable to the same laws as the police and everyone else.
No masks and not allowed to get away with murder.
I agree. My mother always dressed me up warm and toasty like that kid in Christmas Story. She was always there for me. Sometimes she made pancakes for breakfast. Other times, it was just corn flakes with sliced bananas. I never left the house hungry, and she was always there when I came home for lunch. She was never out protesting. I was at her bedside at the moment she died. I often wonder who came to greet her. I hope it was Uncle Pat… the Great O’Malley. A legend among Chicago cops. Nobody messed with Packie. Not even Al Capone. I still remember when he showed me the handle of his 38 Special revolver in his pocket. Nobody messed with The Great O’Malley.
Personally, I don't think it is possible to reform ICE. When an organization has such an extremely broken and brutal culture, reform is unlikely to be successful... history teaches us that. ICE is not an essential organization. It is very very new.
Once a humane immigration policy is in place, a new organization needs to be built from the ground up with new people.
The notion that there needs to be common ground is lovely. But sometimes world views are so incompatible that common ground is not possible.
Great to have you onboard. We need more level headed, straight thinking men like to to turn this mess around. Packie would be proud.
@espiegel123 Thank you for sharing your opinion. I have few questions.
You say that history teaches us that ICE is not an essential organization. I don’t understand. Can you give me some examples to back that up? I’m not trying to be a wise guy, but I would like to know how you arrived at that conclusion.
You mentioned a humane immigration policy. Can you describe that in greater detail? A new organization with new people. From 2020 to 2024, the party in control had the opportunity and the votes to do that.
I believe that common ground is not only a lovely notion, it’s absolutely essential. To reject the possibility without discussion is irresponsible. That’s just my opinion, though.
I’m not trying to poke the bear. I am only trying to understand. Please feel free to explain your position in as much detail as necessary. I will read every word and consider it carefully.
I hear a lot of general opinions and accusations these days, but little or nothing to back them up. If we are to exist as a civilized society, we need to turn down the heat and start talking about the details. That’s also just my opinion.
Thank you @Simon. I appreciate that. I am just trying to understand the thinking on both sides of the aisle. I have been on both sides over the years. I’m not sure which side I’m on right now. I will say that in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, I considered myself to be liberal. I was quite proud of that, too. My views haven’t changed, but it seems that the world around me has changed a lot. That’s also just my opinion, but I can give examples to back it up. Have a great day!
ICE didn’t exist prior to 2003 and somehow we managed.
But i also suggested a starting point before which I will suggest again since the topic has moved on from feeding, sheltering and helping immigrants: https://forum.loopypro.com/discussion/comment/1449728/#Comment_1449728
It would really be helpful and a gesture of good faith to have your ideas out in the open, because otherwise this is starting to resemble a game of “gotcha” and “just asking questions “.
Exactly.
With all due respect, interrogating people without sharing your own beliefs feels a bit like baiting.
@Paulieworld : you wrote “ I believe that common ground is not only a lovely notion, it’s absolutely essential. To reject the possibility without discussion is irresponsible. That’s just my opinion, though.”
Sometimes, there isn’t common ground. Some belief systems are mutually irreconcilable.
For example, let’s say one side believes “all Jews and Rom and LGBTQ and peop of color are detriments to society that must be eliminated”, where is the common ground that should be the point of discussion?
@AlexY In 1915, Congress created the Mounted Guards. In 1924, it established the U.S. Border Patrol in response to rising unlawful entry. I suppose that, in 2003, the Bush administration and Congress decided to create yet another new agency to spend more taxpayer dollars on. It seemed like a good idea at the time. What could possibly go wrong?
The discussion seems to have drifted away from the original thought. However, I am still focused on food, housing, healthcare and education. The reality is that we have anywhere from 11 to 20 million new arrivals, depending on where you get your information. I have never seen or heard anybody openly discuss how to pay for it.
The thing that bothers me the most is the 300,000 missing children. To put that in context, think of the aerial view of the Superbowl. That is equal to 5 or 6 Superbowls. When you watch it, keep that in mind. Each one of them is a young child that should be at home playing.
This may seem like a “gotcha” to many, but what’s wrong with asking uncomfortable questions? My mother once told me that it’s important to be intellectually honest with yourself. I always remember that and believe it. When I hear something that goes against my thinking, I do some reading. If I find that I was wrong, I try my best to adjust my head around the truth.
I have been hearing a lot of really heated talk on both sides. When someone makes a strong statement about someone or something, I just like to know the thinking and the facts behind it. Like I said in my original post, “Trump is an asshole”, or “Biden is a traitor”, are not helpful without something to back it up. Like Joe Friday said… just the facts ma’am.
I will post my idea shortly. In the meantime I want to hear what more people think and, more importantly, why they think that way.
Cute little guy!
@espiegel123 We are going to an early matinee, so I will respond when we get home
@Paulieworld wrote “I have never seen or heard anybody openly discuss how to pay for it.”
The statement involves a false implication that arriving immigrants drain resources and contribute nothing.
In reality, immigrants are net contributors to the economy. They work, pay taxes, spend their money. They are important contributors to the economy.
Strangely, anti-immigration attitudes seem to be strongest in states with the fewest immigrants.
It has struck me as very strange that during recent periods of record low unemployment that there were people worried about immigrants taking jobs.
What are the 300,000 missing children of which you speak?
—————-
Btw, lots of people saw the 2003 establishment of DHS and ICE as bad ideas. But there was a misplaced post-9/11 moral panic that allowed neocons to set things in motion that have led us to a dark place.
@espiegel123 - I can buy the idea that ICE has been hopelessly broken by this administration and is beyond reform. I'm not convinced that it couldn't be fixed by another administration, but that's another topic.
But no border enforcement agency at all? How can a country exist without some mechanism for controlling it's borders? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?
I don't think this is off topic to the original premise of the thread. No one can propose a solution for an indeterminate number of people such as would be the case with completely open borders.
No one said no border enforcement at all. We had border enforcement before ICE.
IMO, the establishment of DHS and ICE were a knee-jerk, misguided response to 9/11.
I also feel like the parameters of this little thought experiment aren't clear.
To begin with, who are we talking about feeding and housing exactly? The USA has immigrants who are here legally and also those who have not followed the legal process. The vast majority of them are fed and housed ... by whom? By themselves. They come here to work. Usually they pay taxes. Many even send money back to family in their home country. That's why they came here. To work. Yes, many are also in poverty and some do create pressure on the social network, but then so do many citizens.
I don't think the homeless population in the USA primarily consists of immigrants. The majority of homelessness is related to drugs and mental health issues. That's a different subject, and that is an extremely difficult one that badly needs to be addressed
Anyway, I'm kind of at loss in this thread. I'm used to approaching problem solving methodically, which always goes better when the problem is well defined.
Thanks @espiegel123 - that clarifies things. I wasn't sure what you were saying.
Fwiw, there is no evidence that illegal immigration is deleterious to the well-being of the U.S.. The economy and stock market have done well during periods with large amounts of illegal immigration. Some economists argue that such immigration actually drove economic growth.
DO NOT interpret that as meaning there should be no immigration laws or border enforcement.
We need to separate out the anxiety that some people have about illegal immigration from the realities.
We also need to be able to openly and honestly discuss the history and reasoning behind our immigration laws past and present. That includes confronting the common American bias that white Europeans (all of whom are immigrants or descendants of immigrants) are more entitled and truer Americans than anyone else. The people that lived here when Europeans arrived see things differently.
We need to be open about the U.S history of discriminatory immigration laws aimed at preserving the dominance of Americans of European descent.
Many many many white Americans are the descendants of illegal immigrants. We don’t see a movement to retroactively repatriate them.
Americans of European descent are not native to this land and are making the rules by virtue of conquest.
We need to confront the lies and demonization that people like Trump, Vance, Musk etc tell about immigrants. Many of the people they rail against are here legally. They play up people’s fears of mainstream culture changing as demographics change.
If you can direct me to an article that talks about it, I would like to read it.
I never said or implied anything like that. I think you are reading too much into what I said.
I agree with you.
Can you point me towards some documentation? I would like to read more.
If you search for “missing immigrant children” you will find many articles. Be sure to read several of them. Especially read articles by people that you don’t agree with.
I agree with you. I have many thoughts regarding what actually happened on 9/11. I will never forget it. I was at my parent’s house. My mother called to me… Paul, come here. Something is happening!
That is a whole new can of worms. So many strange coincidences and unanswered questions. Let’s talk about it in a future discussion. Spoiler: Many people will think I’m crazy. They may be right… I may be crazy.
BTW - We saw Charlie the Wonderdog! Great feel-good movie. If you have little kids, they will love it. Like… totally man!
I don’t think anything is beyond repair if we sit can just down and talk about it.
Actually, there might be a simple solution. There would have to be some give and take on both sides.
I think you may be on to something here. Good observation.
I like how you describe this as a thought experiment. That’s cool.
Definitely agree with you. I actually think that Communism is a very good idea… in communes! Hence, the name. It doesn’t scale up well to 330 million people. It doesn’t take basic human nature into account. Every society will have freeloaders. It will also have “leaders” that enter into government for their own personal benefit. I once heard someone say that Washington DC is Hollywood for dumb, ugly people without morals. Good lawyers go into private practice. The rest go into government.
If things are well defined, they are not really problems.
Perhaps you did not mean to imply it. Your words were : "The reality is that we have anywhere from 11 to 20 million new arrivals, depending on where you get your information. I have never seen or heard anybody openly discuss how to pay for it."
This implies these immigrants are a drain and that some solution is needed. I am puzzled because you agreed that they are a net benefit. Since they are net contributors, there isn't a solution needed -- they are paying for it themselves.
If you search, you will find lots of discussion by economists about how immigrants contribute to the economy. Sorry, I don't have time to look up the data. It won't be hard for you to find.
Well said!
I think you misunderstood me there. I didn’t mean the situation is easily defined, but arriving at a solution of any kind requires clearly defining what you’re trying to solve if you ask me.
Would you say that to the parents of Laken Riley? I don’t pay much attention to the stock market. I never got into that. I just put a little away from each paycheck over the last 50 years. We’re not wealthy, but I could retire tomorrow if I had to. I just don’t want to spend my remaining days watching TV. My wife and I love each other very much, but it’s nice to come home after work and say… Honey, I’m home!
I hear a lot about Trump’s lies. There must be a lot of them. What would you say are his three biggest lies? I also hear people say that he is destroying our democracy. That’s a pretty tall order. For the record, I neither hate nor endorse him. I actually find him to be very entertaining. He is somewhere between Sam Kinison and Rodney Dangerfield. I get no respect!
At the risk of being labeled many things I simply am not, I’ll admit to being a “compassionate conservative”. Even still, Trump’s increasingly erratic, seemingly vengeful, stunningly narcissistic, and sometimes just plain stupid behavior scare the hell out of me. I didn’t vote for him or Harris. My worst imaginings of what might result from his character flaws are being exceeded daily.
Finding a person like that entertaining is understandable, but with the power he wields, it should be terrifying, even to those who agree in principle with some of what he’s trying to accomplish.
Btw, I say all this as someone who sifts as carefully as I can through the horribly biased “reporting” coming out of both sides before drawing conclusions. Even then I pretty much constantly question if I’m seeing things right.
Huh?
Posing the question feels like a sort of out-of-context "gotcha". I could find any number of heinous crimes committed by U.S. citizens or some class of U.S. citizen and ask a similar question. But that would be meaningless gotcha-ism.
Undocumented immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime than U.S. citizens. That there are some crimes committed by undocumented immigrants is not really an argument that supports the notion that undocumented immigrants are a danger to the U.S.
I don't get your point.
“I hear a lot about Trump’s lies. There must be a lot of them”
Tens of thousands of them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements_by_Donald_Trump
Get busy!