Immigration & I.C.E. - A call for proposals

Paulieworld · January 17

@wim said:
At the risk of being labeled many things I simply am not, I’ll admit to being a “compassionate conservative”. Even still, Trump’s increasingly erratic, seemingly vengeful, stunningly narcissistic, and sometimes just plain stupid behavior scare the hell out of me. I didn’t vote for him or Harris. My worst imaginings of what might result from his character flaws are being exceeded daily.

Finding a person like that entertaining is understandable, but with the power he wields, it should be terrifying, even to those who agree in principle with some of what he’s trying to accomplish.

Btw, I say all this as someone who sifts as carefully as I can through the horribly biased “reporting” coming out of both sides before drawing conclusions. Even then I pretty much constantly question if I’m seeing things right.

The key word here is “compassionate”. That is a good thing that Jesus will consider at the second coming. Many people here would “label” me as some sort of crazy Jesus freak. I’m okay with that. I truly believe that the Rapture is real. My wife is a Bible-thumping Christian. I only pray that, when the time comes, I can say… I’m with her.

I agree with you that DJT is a bloviating blowhard. He is self-centered, narcissistic, and he scares people. That’s exactly what I want now. When I was growing up, there was a family of troublemakers in my neighborhood. They would pick on us and would threaten to beat me up and burn my house down. Finally, there was a young dude that stood up and beat the crap out of them. Sometimes, that’s what it takes.

Paulieworld · January 17

@JeffChasteen said:

@Paulieworld said:

@espiegel123 said:
Fwiw, there is no evidence that illegal immigration is deleterious to the well-being of the U.S.. The economy and stock market have done well during periods with large amounts of illegal immigration. Some economists argue that such immigration actually drove economic growth.

Would you say that to the parents of Laken Riley? I don’t pay much attention to the stock market. I never got into that. I just put a little away from each paycheck over the last 50 years. We’re not wealthy, but I could retire tomorrow if I had to. I just don’t want to spend my remaining days watching TV. My wife and I love each other very much, but it’s nice to come home after work and say… Honey, I’m home!

DO NOT interpret that as meaning there should be no immigration laws or border enforcement.

We need to separate out the anxiety that some people have about illegal immigration from the realities.

We also need to be able to openly and honestly discuss the history and reasoning behind our immigration laws past and present. That includes confronting the common American bias that white Europeans (all of whom are immigrants or descendants of immigrants) are more entitled and truer Americans than anyone else. The people that lived here when Europeans arrived see things differently.

We need to be open about the U.S history of discriminatory immigration laws aimed at preserving the dominance of Americans of European descent.

Many many many white Americans are the descendants of illegal immigrants. We don’t see a movement to retroactively repatriate them.

Americans of European descent are not native to this land and are making the rules by virtue of conquest.

We need to confront the lies and demonization that people like Trump, Vance, Musk etc tell about immigrants. Many of the people they rail against are here legally. They play up people’s fears of mainstream culture changing as demographics change.

I hear a lot about Trump’s lies. There must be a lot of them. What would you say are his three biggest lies? I also hear people say that he is destroying our democracy. That’s a pretty tall order. For the record, I neither hate nor endorse him. I actually find him to be very entertaining. He is somewhere between Sam Kinison and Rodney Dangerfield. I get no respect!

“I hear a lot about Trump’s lies. There must be a lot of them”

Tens of thousands of them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements_by_Donald_Trump

Get busy!

Thank you. I will read this now.

Simon · January 17

@Paulieworld said:
I have been on both sides over the years. I’m not sure which side I’m on right now. I will say that in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, I considered myself to be liberal.

No problem. You can be on any side, liberal or conservative, and still be against the notion of federal agents being above the law.

Everyone should obey the law - cops, federal agents, the military, even the President.

Paulieworld · January 17

@JeffChasteen said:

You like seals. Me too. There is really good singer named Seal. This is a great song. I wish I wrote it!

He also did a cover of Luck Be A Lady. It’s really good. Check it out.

Let’s keep this party polite.

AlexY · January 18

@espiegel123 said:

@Paulieworld said:

@espiegel123 said:
Fwiw, there is no evidence that illegal immigration is deleterious to the well-being of the U.S.. The economy and stock market have done well during periods with large amounts of illegal immigration. Some economists argue that such immigration actually drove economic growth.

Would you say that to the parents of Laken Riley?

Huh?

Posing the question feels like a sort of out-of-context "gotcha". I could find any number of heinous crimes committed by U.S. citizens or some class of U.S. citizen and ask a similar question. But that would be meaningless gotcha-ism.

Undocumented immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime than U.S. citizens. That there are some crimes committed by undocumented immigrants is not really an argument that supports the notion that undocumented immigrants are a danger to the U.S.

I don't get your point.

What happened to Laken Riley is horrible, but to bring that up is to use an isolated case to paint all immigrants as prone to criminality. One might as well point at David Duke and say that all white people in the south are prone to being KKK white supremacists.

JeffChasteen · January 18

@Paulieworld said:

@JeffChasteen said:

You like seals. Me too. There is really good singer named Seal. This is a great song. I wish I wrote it!

He also did a cover of Luck Be A Lady. It’s really good. Check it out.

Let’s keep this party polite.

It’s not a seal.

AlexY · January 18

@Paulieworld said:

This may seem like a “gotcha” to many, but what’s wrong with asking uncomfortable questions? My mother once told me that it’s important to be intellectually honest with yourself. I always remember that and believe it. When I hear something that goes against my thinking, I do some reading. If I find that I was wrong, I try my best to adjust my head around the truth.

I twice pointed to my solution regarding immigration enforcement, which despite the title of this thread, was apparently not the topic. However, we’re two pages in, a day and a half after, and it would show good faith if you revealed what your solution is.

The reason it starts to resemble a gotcha game is that everyone else is expected to suggest some simple solution to a problem that is anything but… to what purpose? Why not provide a the example of what a simple solution would be so that a constructive conversation around something concrete can happen?

I hear a lot about Trump’s lies. There must be a lot of them. What would you say are his three >biggest lies? I also hear people say that he is destroying our democracy. That’s a pretty tall order. For the record, I neither hate nor endorse him. I actually find him to be very entertaining. He is somewhere between Sam Kinison and Rodney Dangerfield. I get no respect!

I wish I could find him and the people he has purposefully surrounded himself with as hilarious as you say you do. Especially so in light of what he and the people he has purposefully surrounded himself with have said, advocated for, and done.

I assume you follow the news, so I suppose you have heard what he’s said from demonizing immigrants from “shithole counties” (while bringing in white South Africans) to falsely claiming stolen elections to threatening Minnesota with the Insurrection Act to antagonizing our NATO allies with threats of invasion…”jokes” about how “we shouldn’t even have elections”…

And yeah, we’ve all heard, “he doesn’t mean it” followed by “he tells it like it is” (usually when he’s saying something vile about some marginalized group as a dog whistle).

Then there’s the things he’s actually done through his administration like sending the national guard in the guise of fighting crime; purposefully putting incompetent but Trump-loyal people like RFK and Kash Patel as heads of institutions; pardoning people who attacked and severely injured capitol police; pardoning foreign drug dealers…and the latest, using tariffs to bully our allies into giving up Greenland.

It’s very hard for me to find the humor in any of that, perhaps some gallows humor, but none of those are things I can take lightly.

FizzyLizzy27 · January 18

@JeffChasteen said:

@Paulieworld said:

@JeffChasteen said:

You like seals. Me too. There is really good singer named Seal. This is a great song. I wish I wrote it!

He also did a cover of Luck Be A Lady. It’s really good. Check it out.

Let’s keep this party polite.

It’s not a seal.

Ha, took a few google searches but I’ve never heard the phrase that fits the image. I like it.

JeffChasteen · January 18

@FizzyLizzy27 said:

@JeffChasteen said:

@Paulieworld said:

@JeffChasteen said:

You like seals. Me too. There is really good singer named Seal. This is a great song. I wish I wrote it!

He also did a cover of Luck Be A Lady. It’s really good. Check it out.

Let’s keep this party polite.

It’s not a seal.

Ha, took a few google searches but I’ve never heard the phrase that fits the image. I like it.

Thanks!
Yes, the phrase fits the image and they both fit what is going on in this thread.
Some people just don’t do disingenuous well.

Paulieworld · January 18

@AlexY said:

@espiegel123 said:

@Paulieworld said:

@espiegel123 said:
Fwiw, there is no evidence that illegal immigration is deleterious to the well-being of the U.S.. The economy and stock market have done well during periods with large amounts of illegal immigration. Some economists argue that such immigration actually drove economic growth.

Would you say that to the parents of Laken Riley?

Huh?

Posing the question feels like a sort of out-of-context "gotcha". I could find any number of heinous crimes committed by U.S. citizens or some class of U.S. citizen and ask a similar question. But that would be meaningless gotcha-ism.

Undocumented immigrants are less likely to commit violent crime than U.S. citizens. That there are some crimes committed by undocumented immigrants is not really an argument that supports the notion that undocumented immigrants are a danger to the U.S.

I don't get your point.

What happened to Laken Riley is horrible, but to bring that up is to use an isolated case to paint all immigrants as prone to criminality. One might as well point at David Duke and say that all white people in the south are prone to being KKK white supremacists.

Our two sons were killed in 2004. I looked down on their dead bodies in the morgue .They did their best to make them presentable to us. I had big plans for their future. Laken Riley may have been an isolated incident, but I know how her parents felt. I have never gotten over it and never will. Don’t even try to imagine it.

AlexY · January 18

That’s a tragedy no one should endure. But, from a logical standpoint, that pain doesn't create a connection between an isolated incident and immigrants as a whole (any more than David Duke’s actions create a connection to all white Southerners). iff we judge an entire system by its worst individual outliers, then no system (including the economy you credited Bill Clinton for) could ever be considered a net good.

https://www.nilc.org/articles/nilc-opposes-the-h-r-29-the-laken-riley-act/

Paulieworld · January 18

This is good. We are talking. We may agree to disagree, but that’s just fine. At the end of the day, we will all walk away from the table having shared our thoughts as reasonable, civilized people. Perhaps your ideas may change my mind. Maybe not. In any case, I would love to pop for pizza and beer and share a lively discussion with all of you. It’s 8:00 and we are going to bed now. We are old. Have a good night!

Gavinski · January 18

@AlexY said:
I wish I could find him and the people he has purposefully surrounded himself with as hilarious as you say you do. Especially so in light of what he and the people he has purposefully surrounded himself with have said, advocated for, and done.

I assume you follow the news, so I suppose you have heard what he’s said from demonizing immigrants from “shithole counties” (while bringing in white South Africans) to falsely claiming stolen elections to threatening Minnesota with the Insurrection Act to antagonizing our NATO allies with threats of invasion…”jokes” about how “we shouldn’t even have elections”…

And yeah, we’ve all heard, “he doesn’t mean it” followed by “he tells it like it is” (usually when he’s saying something vile about some marginalized group as a dog whistle).

Then there’s the things he’s actually done through his administration like sending the national guard in the guise of fighting crime; purposefully putting incompetent but Trump-loyal people like RFK and Kash Patel as heads of institutions; pardoning people who attacked and severely injured capitol police; pardoning foreign drug dealers…and the latest, using tariffs to bully our allies into giving up Greenland.

It’s very hard for me to find the humor in any of that, perhaps some gallows humor, but none of those are things I can take lightly.

Well said

JeffChasteen · January 18

“Terrible things are happening outside. At any time of night and day, poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. They’re allowed to take only a knapsack and a little cash with them, and even then, they’re robbed of these possessions on the way. Families are torn apart; men, women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared. Women return from shopping to find their houses sealed, their families gone."

Anne Frank. Diary of a Young Girl

Paulieworld · January 18

@JeffChasteen said:
“Terrible things are happening outside. At any time of night and day, poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. They’re allowed to take only a knapsack and a little cash with them, and even then, they’re robbed of these possessions on the way. Families are torn apart; men, women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared. Women return from shopping to find their houses sealed, their families gone."

Anne Frank. Diary of a Young Girl

I am very familiar with the book. It was required reading. Back in my day, we were taught about history so we didn’t repeat it. I have also been to her house in Amsterdam. Apartments in that city are notoriously narrow to begin with. Her space was terrifying and brought back memories of the book.

I edited my original post to include my idea. Read it. If you have any better ideas, get back to me. If you want to do something to help, go to a local church and offer your services. They will be able to put you in contact with people that need help. Your little pictures don’t help anybody.

JeffChasteen · January 18

“Terrible things are happening outside. At any time of night and day, poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. They’re allowed to take only a knapsack and a little cash with them, and even then, they’re robbed of these possessions on the way. Families are torn apart; men, women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared. Women return from shopping to find their houses sealed, their families gone."

Anne Frank. Diary of a Young Girl> @Paulieworld said:

@JeffChasteen said:
“Terrible things are happening outside. At any time of night and day, poor helpless people are being dragged out of their homes. They’re allowed to take only a knapsack and a little cash with them, and even then, they’re robbed of these possessions on the way. Families are torn apart; men, women and children are separated. Children come home from school to find that their parents have disappeared. Women return from shopping to find their houses sealed, their families gone."

Anne Frank. Diary of a Young Girl

I am very familiar with the book. It was required reading. Back in my day, we were taught about history so we didn’t repeat it. I have also been to her house in Amsterdam. Apartments in that city are notoriously narrow to begin with. Her space was terrifying and brought back memories of the book.

I edited my original post to include my idea. Read it. If you have any better ideas, get back to me. If you want to do something to help, go to a local church and offer your services. They will be able to put you in contact with people that need help. Your little pictures don’t help anybody.

At least they are not apologists for child rape.
That’s not a good look, man.

AlexY · January 19

This proposal, taken as a whole, is dangerously close to the rhetorical device of asking “woke” white folks to “give up their jobs/privileged positions/ whatever up for marginalized people”. It frames a false dilemma where either you personally house a migrant in your home, or you don't actually care about them. Obviously, that would be false because public policy and humanitarian crises aren’t peer to peer transactions.

Craigslist works for selling a couch because if the couch is broken, the stakes are low. If a human "sponsorship" goes wrong in an unregulated environment, the stakes are life, death, or enslavement.

A terabyte of data might be cheap, but what is the hidden cost? We’re talking about people here, not commodities.

From day one, we would know who is here, and how to contact them.

Who is “we”? The volunteers who operate the site? Who is going to vet them? Who is going to vet sponsors and “guests”? How do you propose protecting both the “sponsor” and the “guest”? who is liable if something bad happens or someone uses the site for nefarious purposes?

I also don’t understand the purpose of this stipulation?

There would be no preliminary interview or meet and greet.

By banning the 'meet and greet,' you aren't removing bureaucracy; you are removing consent. A guest cannot consent to a living situation they haven't seen, and a sponsor cannot consent to a guest they haven't met. The only people who would be comfortable with a 'no-interview' rule are people with something to hide.

Also, how can you know someone’s needs, and whether you can help if you can’t “meet & greet”? how can you know the people on either side are safe if this is required to be a blind contract?

If it existed as you described, would you enter your name in it? Would you take someone into your home without a meet and greet?

—

More generally:

I pay taxes so that specialized institutions can handle complex logistics safely. If there counter argument is that there isn’t enough resources, then that begs the question of:

why aren’t the multi billionaires with offshore accounts paying their fair share of money? On the campaign trail, Trump himself said he uses tax loopholes (which he hasn’t pushed to fix)
Same for companies that have had billions parked offshore because they don’t want to contribute taxes while benefiting from the taxes your average Jane and Joe pay to subsidize infrastructure, bail them out, etc.

Why is the government wasting millions on a White House ballroom, FBI flights to private Las Vegas entertainment, pointless gestures like changing the Dept of Defense to the Department of War, shrinking the GDP with bone headed tariffs, spending almost a million in overtime to redact the Epstein files, etc, etc. The list goes on, and it’s more wasteful than programs that help people.

This seems to be proposing that regular families turn their homes into processing centers to save a few $100 in server costs, while the administration allows billions to leak out of the economy through loopholes. This strikes me less as solution than a wealth transfer where the elite keep the money and the working class absorbs the social risk.

Maybe if the “letting participants in this Craigslist thingie claim “guests” as dependents on their tax returns” was on the table, we might be able to take this as a misguided but well meaning idea, but instead we have stipulations that remove the safety of both “guests” and “sponsors”.

Also, the entire insistence on 'no government' makes impending wonder how do we ensure that the “Guest” has legal rights and the “Sponsor” has legal support?

Without legal standing or government oversight, this isn't 'neighbors helping neighbors’; it's state-sanctioned abandonment. This is a system that turns people into 'ghosts' with no rights, while the administration spends millions on ballroom parties and redacting files. This sounds less like charity and more like a black market.

FizzyLizzy27 · January 19

@AlexY said:
This proposal, taken as a whole, is dangerously close to the rhetorical device of asking “woke” white folks to “give up their jobs/privileged positions/ whatever up for marginalized people”. It frames a false dilemma where either you personally house a migrant in your home, or you don't actually care about them. Obviously, that would be false because public policy and humanitarian crises aren’t peer to peer transactions.

Craigslist works for selling a couch because if the couch is broken, the stakes are low. If a human "sponsorship" goes wrong in an unregulated environment, the stakes are life, death, or enslavement.

A terabyte of data might be cheap, but what is the hidden cost? We’re talking about people here, not commodities.

From day one, we would know who is here, and how to contact them.

Who is “we”? The volunteers who operate the site? Who is going to vet them? Who is going to vet sponsors and “guests”? How do you propose protecting both the “sponsor” and the “guest”? who is liable if something bad happens or someone uses the site for nefarious purposes?

I also don’t understand the purpose of this stipulation?

There would be no preliminary interview or meet and greet.

By banning the 'meet and greet,' you aren't removing bureaucracy; you are removing consent. A guest cannot consent to a living situation they haven't seen, and a sponsor cannot consent to a guest they haven't met. The only people who would be comfortable with a 'no-interview' rule are people with something to hide.

Also, how can you know someone’s needs, and whether you can help if you can’t “meet & greet”? how can you know the people on either side are safe if this is required to be a blind contract?

If it existed as you described, would you enter your name in it? Would you take someone into your home without a meet and greet?

—

More generally:

I pay taxes so that specialized institutions can handle complex logistics safely. If there counter argument is that there isn’t enough resources, then that begs the question of:

why aren’t the multi billionaires with offshore accounts paying their fair share of money? On the campaign trail, Trump himself said he uses tax loopholes (which he hasn’t pushed to fix)
Same for companies that have had billions parked offshore because they don’t want to contribute taxes while benefiting from the taxes your average Jane and Joe pay to subsidize infrastructure, bail them out, etc.

Why is the government wasting millions on a White House ballroom, FBI flights to private Las Vegas entertainment, pointless gestures like changing the Dept of Defense to the Department of War, shrinking the GDP with bone headed tariffs, spending almost a million in overtime to redact the Epstein files, etc, etc. The list goes on, and it’s more wasteful than programs that help people.

This seems to be proposing that regular families turn their homes into processing centers to save a few $100 in server costs, while the administration allows billions to leak out of the economy through loopholes. This strikes me less as solution than a wealth transfer where the elite keep the money and the working class absorbs the social risk.

Maybe if the “letting participants in this Craigslist thingie claim “guests” as dependents on their tax returns” was on the table, we might be able to take this as a misguided but well meaning idea, but instead we have stipulations that remove the safety of both “guests” and “sponsors”.

Also, the entire insistence on 'no government' makes impending wonder how do we ensure that the “Guest” has legal rights and the “Sponsor” has legal support?

Without legal standing or government oversight, this isn't 'neighbors helping neighbors’; it's state-sanctioned abandonment. This is a system that turns people into 'ghosts' with no rights, while the administration spends millions on ballroom parties and redacting files. This sounds less like charity and more like a black market.

I agree with all this. It comes across as a less regulated couch surfing mixed with H1B visas (already dangerously close to indentured servitude). I’m also curious what problem this is solving. Is the guest coming over getting legal citizenship right off the bat, or do they need to be here a certain amount of time to be considered a legal citizen? If no government is involved, who is declaring them legal?

Paulieworld · January 19

@AlexY Thank you for taking time to read it, and for your insights. It is well written, and you put time and thought into it. I am working on my response. This is exactly the type of discussion that is needed. We may not come to an agreement, but we both leave the table with more understanding. Others on this forum have called me an "apologist for child rape" and send silly animal pictures. LOL!

JeffChasteen · January 19

@Paulieworld said:
@AlexY Thank you for taking time to read it, and for your insights. It is well written, and you put time and thought into it. I am working on my response. This is exactly the type of discussion that is needed. We may not come to an agreement, but we both leave the table with more understanding. Others on this forum have called me an "apologist for child rape" and send silly animal pictures. LOL!

This you?

PaulieworldPaulieworld January 17 Flag
“Rich men in positions of power like to bang young girls. What’s so hard to understand about that? I would, too. Even Jimmy Carter said that he had lust in his heart. I believe that he was a decent and honorable man. I voted for him. Bill Clinton liked young girls, too. I voted for him. When he was president, the economy was pretty good. I was making good money and had no complaints. Whatever he did behind the Oval Office didn’t affect my paycheck. The Epstein files are just a distraction. Wake up, dummy!”

“I would, too”

Not only an apologist, but a wannabe.

espiegel123 · January 22

@Paulieworld : you talk in this and other threads about “missing children” when you mean “unaccompanied minors” with 0 context.

What is your concern there?

Do you understand that these are mostly teenagers fleeing violence and extreme poverty…sometimes with younger siblings in tow? People looking for a better life. An awful lot of Americans trace their origins back to such.

I am not sure why you keep referring to “missing children” except for shock value.

Paulieworld · January 22

Mommy, Mommy... he's being mean to me!

Paulie... go sit in the corner until you are woke.

JeffChasteen · January 24

https://www.youtube.com/live/ASr1zVuQlX4?si=YQNl3oorYBsPCzfF

Gavinski · January 24

.

McD · January 24

@JeffChasteen said:
PaulieworldPaulieworld January 17 Flag
“Rich men in positions of power like to bang young girls. What’s so hard to understand about that? I would, too. Even Jimmy Carter said that he had lust in his heart. I believe that he was a decent and honorable man. I voted for him. Bill Clinton liked young girls, too. I voted for him. When he was president, the economy was pretty good. I was making good money and had no complaints. Whatever he did behind the Oval Office didn’t affect my paycheck. The Epstein files are just a distraction. Wake up, dummy!”

“I would, too”

Not only an apologist, but a wannabe.

You skipped the paragraph above this text that stated:

Warning! The thoughts expressed below are a satirical parody, based on my perception of the prevailing attitudes during the Clinton administration. You may not agree, and it may trigger strong reactions. Viewer discretion is advised.

Satirical Parody means those worlds are NOT the voice of the writer… this is what is typically called: taking words out of context.

I’m impressed that @paulieworld didn’t strike back and escalate into a full food fight. I mean who likes being called a pedophile wannabe for assuming the satirical voice of a Clinton defender writing a “Who cares” apology for Bill’s sexual escapades before, while in office and I would assume after as well… dumping the Epstein files might clarify that assumption.

It is estimated by the women (girls at the time) that 1200 females were trafficked by Epstein. I suspect it was NOT for money but for compromising leverage on powerful men: Prince Andrew, Larry Summers, Bill Clinton, Alan Dershowitz, Woody Allen

wim · January 24

@McD - that paragraph was added later for clarification.

McD · January 24

@wim said:
@McD - that paragraph was added later for clarification.

Aha… context with edited disclosure of intended humor.
I could see the intent because @Paulieworld has typically been a rather righteous forum participant in general and anything but a wannabe pedophile.

I took it he was poking at a typical democrat defending Bill Clinton’s social life. As a card carrying democrat I held Clinton’s morality against Hillary because that lifestyle requires enablers and I didn’t want her pushed forward in 2016…

“Stand by Your Man” doesn’t work for me when he’s doing the deeds Bill did with much younger females: letting his bent dick doing the thinking. He’s a very flawed man that was an exceptional political talent. Now Obama had the talent and didn’t let his dick spoil his legacy. So, they tend to attack him for just being 1/2 black and a Kenyan father who left him at a young age… possibly because his father didn’t want to become an American. Obama’s step father (an Indonesian man) who father his sister also wasn’t around for long. Obama’s mother, like Bill Clinton’s, was a the rock that grounded the man to a large degree.

I propose we cancel ICE as a failed governmental organization style on the Nazi SS… put some of the $150B in the Big Beautiful Bill into the FBI and local law enforcement to identify, arrest and try actual criminals in the immigrant comunity.

How did the Italians and Irish fight their way out of poverty when there was no welfare state? Organized crime. Lot’s of books and movies that show the somewhat twisted morality of these immigrant groups. My father in law was an orphan that found his way into organized crime and eventually ended up working for HUD (Housing and Urban Development). He probably routed a lot of money into his own projects as a real estate/developer at the end. He was well aware of the Trump family and knew they only did “Win-Loose” business.

If smart, hard working people can’t find a legal path through the system… they keep looking for an angle to get ahead.

JeffChasteen · January 24

@wim said:
@McD - that paragraph was added later for clarification.

Absolutely!
Thank you

Paulieworld · January 24

@wim said:
@McD - that paragraph was added later for clarification.

It was added at the request of our moderator. Apparently, some folks can't tell the difference between serious and satire. In the future, if that ever happens, I will be sure to add a Spoiler Alert. Have a great day.

McD · January 24

@Paulieworld said:

@wim said:
@McD - that paragraph was added later for clarification.

It was added at the request of our moderator. Apparently, some folks can't tell the difference between serious and satire. In the future, if that ever happens, I will be sure to add a Spoiler Alert. Have a great day.

Well, I learned to use a new word today: “onus” and it’s on the writer. I thought it was a typo but it’s not.
MAKE YOUR INTENTIONS, people or you might be requested to add an explanation for misguided “jokes”.

That simply takes all the fun out of taking a risk on humor. NOTE: saying “I was kidding” will not remove your onus…
Only God and a surgeon can do that safely.

NOTE: my intentions are humorous with with the intention of making a rather serious point. The First Amendment can
Be a great idea for a civil society: you have thr right to be a public union, asshole or politically active in your discourse.

Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.

Immigration & I.C.E. - A call for proposals

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