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Immigration & I.C.E. - A call for proposals

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Comments

  • edited February 2

    @espiegel123 said:
    The Yale study is interesting because —if it is accurate—it largely undermines the moral panic of the people that hate undocumented immigration so much. The authors point out that if the number of undocumented immigrants is as high as they claim: the crime rate among them is far less than the crime rate of legal residents.

    The people that are so horrified by the number of undocumented immigrants are afraid of numbers that are not borne out of some generally accepted rational analysis.

    The U.S. economy was not been damaged by their presence and a strong case can be made that their presence has been valuable.

    Why were 10-13 million people allowed into the U.S. in violation of Federal immigration laws by the Biden administration? Was there an emergency? Were they fleeing political oppression? Were their countries simultaneously struck by tornadoes or earthquakes?

    No.

    Millions of people were allowed to flood into the U.S. purely for political advantage. That’s not allowed under Federal law. Therefore, they are being arrested and sent back.

    The wiser ones are taking advantage of the government paying them to leave immediately. Those people will be given the chance to return after going through normal immigration processes.

    And do not forget: The majority of Americans (55-56% of Americans per polling) wants ALL illegal aliens to leave. If a person supports “democracy”, then what the majority wants, the majority gets.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/cnn-data-guru-gives-dems-an-ominous-warning-on-deported-dad/ar-AA1D7UzV

  • edited February 2

    @maxxpower18 said:

    @McD said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @McD wrote: “Hitler probably didn’t want to kill Jews in mass but no one would accept them…”

    WTF!

    Poor Hitler. Look at what the world made him do.

    [previous paragraph is sarcasm — as I can’t believe you wrote those words. You don’t think up then execute a mass extermination machinery without wanting to do it.]

    Hitler wrote of wanting to exterminate Jews before he had any political power and made a speech in January 1939 (well before WWIi started in September) expressing the desire to exterminate all Jews in Europe.

    A perfect example of Godwin’s law. Look it up, gentle reader.

    I’m sure Stephen Miller doesn’t want to kill millions of non-whites but he will hit that critical point where supporting them in camps ( note my subtle change from centers) when no other nation wants to take them in.

    So… history doesn’t repeat itself but it does rhyme.

    Now forget I mentioned that particular megalomaniacal sociopath and consider the current circumstance. There is a reason Trump had a volume of Hitler’s speeches on his nightstand. And people think he never read a book from end to end. I’ll wager he used it as a reference to pull ideas from… “the press is the enemy of the people”.

    Since you proclaim to be an avid reader, read up on Miller's history, he absolutely wants to kill millions of minorities.

    I wish I could invent a time machine so I could send Miller and his wife, how is browner than me, to 1930s Germany so that his idol, Goebbels, can give him a nice welcome.

    Go ahead and provide literally any direct evidence (not secondhand hearsay or the claims of activist hacks) supporting your wild and reckless claim about him wanting to “kill millions of minorities”. The fact is, there is no evidence, except for manufactured lies about his political positions.

    I’m not even a fan of his, but you’re repeating lies or lying yourself.

  • McDMcD
    edited February 2

    @NeuM said:
    Why were 10-13 million people allowed into the U.S. in violation of Federal immigration laws by the Biden administration? Was there an emergency? Were they fleeing political oppression? Were their countries simultaneously struck by tornadoes or earthquakes?

    You like facts - I used Gemini to gather them quickly:

    The increase in border crossings between 2021 and 2024 was driven by a complex mix of global events, economic conditions, and shifting U.S. policies. While critics often point to the Biden administration’s early messaging and policy changes, most analysts agree that a "perfect storm" of factors contributed to the record-high numbers.

    The primary reasons for the surge include:

    1. "Pent-Up Demand" Post-Pandemic
      During the COVID-19 pandemic, global mobility largely froze as countries closed their borders. When these restrictions lifted in 2021, a massive wave of migration began. This "pent-up demand" from individuals who had delayed their plans for over a year created an immediate and sustained surge at the border.

    2. Economic "Pull" and Global Instability

      • Strong U.S. Labor Market: Between 2021 and 2024, the U.S. experienced historic labor shortages and high job demand. This acted as a powerful "pull factor" for migrants seeking work, especially as economies in Latin America and the Caribbean recovered much more slowly from the pandemic.
      • Regional Crises: Political and economic collapse in countries like Venezuela, Cuba, and Nicaragua forced millions to flee. Unlike previous decades where migration was mostly from Mexico and Central America, the Biden years saw an unprecedented diversity of nationalities arriving at the border.
    3. Impact of Title 42 and "Repeat Crossings"
      The pandemic-era policy Title 42 allowed border agents to quickly expel migrants without formal processing. Because these expulsions didn't carry the legal consequences of a formal deportation (like a 5-year ban on re-entry), many individuals tried to cross multiple times. This artificially inflated the "encounter" numbers, as a single person might be counted three or four times in one month.

    4. Policy Changes and Messaging

      • End of "Remain in Mexico": Early in his term, Biden ended the Migrant Protection Protocols (MPP), which required asylum seekers to wait in Mexico. Though later tied up in court, the initial move was perceived by many as a signal that the border was "open," regardless of the administration's actual enforcement actions.
      • Expansion of Parole: The administration created new legal pathways (such as the CBP One app and humanitarian parole for certain nationalities) to encourage people to apply from abroad. While intended to reduce illegal crossings, critics argued these programs incentivized more people to make the journey.
    5. Smuggling and Social Media
      The rise of social media transformed human smuggling. Cartels and "coyotes" used platforms like TikTok and WhatsApp to spread misinformation, telling potential migrants that they would be allowed to stay if they arrived before certain policy deadlines, such as the lifting of Title 42 in May 2023.

    By late 2024 and early 2025, border encounters had fallen significantly from their peaks, partly due to stricter asylum rules and increased enforcement cooperation from Mexico and other regional partners.

    Would you like to see how the border encounter numbers for 2025 compare to these earlier years?

  • @NeuM said:

    @McD said:
    Here’s a little fact: Stephen Miller wants ICE to find 3,000 immigrants per day.

    365 x 3000 =1,095,000 immigrants per year.

    He’s probably holding back waiting for the average citizen to get on board with the program.
    The only way to hit 10 million in Trump’s 2nd term they will need us to start turning in our neighbors.
    Trump has roughly 365 x 3 =1,095 days left.

    10,000,000 / 1095 = 9,132.42 immigrants per day on average. He’s going to need our help to find people faster
    And more efficiently.

    Or we could, change the balance of power in the House and Senate and impeach Trump and indict them for their
    Crimes. We really tried to do that after his first term in office but we hit processing delays in the courts. Go figure.
    We won’t make that mistake again. I suspect.

    Or civilly war will break out and we can solve the disagreement with a 2nd Amendment solution like we did in 1861.

    I’m sure there are a few other scenarios that folks can propose.

    Those numbers are completely off.

    OK. I’ll research some numbers. See who might be focusing on Immigration as a Political strategy based on these stats.

    Obama stats:

    During President Obama's two terms (2009–2016), his administration carried out approximately 2.7 million to 3.1 million formal deportations, depending on the specific data source and definition used.
    This high volume of removals led some immigrant advocacy groups to refer to him as the "Deporter in Chief," particularly during his first term when numbers reached record levels.
    Annual Deportation Breakdown
    The peak of these enforcement actions occurred in Fiscal Year 2012, which saw over 400,000 individuals removed.
    | Fiscal Year | Total Removals |
    |---|---|
    | 2009 | 389,834 |
    | 2010 | 392,862 |
    | 2011 | 396,906 |
    | 2012 | 409,849 |
    | 2013 | 368,644 |
    | 2014 | 315,943 |
    | 2015 | 235,413 |
    | 2016 | 240,255 |
    Key Policy Shifts
    The nature of deportations shifted significantly between his first and second terms:
    * Priority Changes: In his second term, the administration increasingly focused resources on individuals with serious criminal convictions or those recently apprehended at the border, while de-prioritizing those with long-standing ties to the community and no criminal record.
    * Interior vs. Border: While total "removals" remained high, "interior removals" (people arrested away from the border) actually decreased toward the end of his presidency, while border removals remained the primary driver of the statistics.
    * Administrative Relief: During this same period, the administration also introduced the DACA (Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals) program in 2012, providing temporary relief from deportation for eligible undocumented youth.
    Would you like more details on how these figures compare to subsequent administrations?

    Trump stats:

    During his first term (Fiscal Years 2017–2020), the Trump administration carried out approximately 935,000 to 1.5 million formal deportations, depending on the data sources and how "removals" are categorized.
    While President Trump used much more aggressive rhetoric regarding immigration than his predecessor, the total number of formal deportations during these four years was actually lower than the peak years of the Obama administration.
    Annual Deportation Breakdown (FY 2017–2020)
    Data from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) show the following totals for formal removals:
    | Fiscal Year | Total Removals |
    |---|---|
    | 2017 | 226,119 |
    | 2018 | 256,085 |
    | 2019 | 267,258 |
    | 2020 | 185,884 |
    | Total | ~935,346 |
    Note: The 2020 numbers were significantly impacted by the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic and the implementation of Title 42.
    Key Enforcement Trends
    * Interior vs. Border: A major hallmark of the Trump administration was an increase in interior arrests (people taken into custody within the U.S. rather than at the border). In 2017, administrative arrests in the interior rose by roughly 30%.
    * Removal of Priorities: Unlike the latter half of the Obama administration, which prioritized individuals with serious criminal records, the Trump administration expanded enforcement to include almost any undocumented person, including those with no criminal history.
    * Title 42 Expulsions: Starting in March 2020, the administration began using a public health order (Title 42) to quickly expel migrants at the border. These "expulsions" are often counted separately from formal "removals" (deportations) in official statistics. Between March and September 2020 alone, there were over 200,000 such expulsions.
    * Cooperation Challenges: One reason the total numbers remained lower than the Obama years was the lack of cooperation from "sanctuary" jurisdictions (cities and states that limited their involvement with federal immigration authorities).
    Would you like to see how these numbers compare to the early data from his second term that began in 2025?

    Biden stats:

    During his single term (2021–2025), the Biden administration’s enforcement numbers were significant, though the data is often categorized into two types: formal "removals" (deportations) and "expulsions" under the pandemic-era policy Title 42.
    By the end of his term, President Biden had overseen roughly 4.4 million to 5 million repatriations (the combined total of removals and expulsions), which is more than any single presidential term since the early 2000s.
    Annual Breakdown (Fiscal Years 2021–2024)
    Deportation efforts ramped up significantly in the latter half of his presidency as the administration shifted back to standard immigration laws (Title 8) following the expiration of Title 42.
    | Fiscal Year | Formal Removals / Returns |
    |---|---|
    | 2021 | ~59,000 (ICE record low) |
    | 2022 | ~72,000 |
    | 2023 | ~143,000 |
    | 2024 | ~271,000 (Surpassed Trump-era peak) |
    Key Policy Dynamics
    The Biden years were defined by a "revolving door" of different enforcement tools:
    * The Title 42 Era (2021–2023): For the first half of his term, the majority of people encountered at the border were "expelled" under a public health order rather than formally "deported." This resulted in over 3 million expulsions.
    * Post-Title 42 Surge: In the 12 months following the end of Title 42 (May 2023), the administration removed or returned over 775,000 people—the highest annual total since 2010.
    * Interior Priorities: Like the later Obama years, Biden’s ICE prioritized the removal of individuals with serious criminal records or those considered national security threats. However, by 2024, the sheer volume of border encounters led to a dramatic increase in removals for those recently apprehended at the border.
    * Total Comparison: When combining formal deportations with pandemic-era expulsions, the Biden administration actually repatriated more people in four years than the Trump administration did in his first term.
    Would you like me to compare these totals with the current figures from the second Trump administration that began last year?

  • edited February 2

    @gusgranite said:
    I’m sad to say it but this forum has become a bit of a shitshow IMO. Music communities, even more tech based ones like this, used to be natural gatherings for creatives, nerds and freaks. Open and welcoming to minorities. A place for the underground. International. Punk, folk, reggae, hip hop, techno, ambient. With protest and fighting injustice not always discussed but always there in the background. And we all know that makes for great music… A bit daft, sure. Idealistic, you bet. But still a haven to let your freak flag fly.

    Now it feels like a watering hole for a small number of US-based rightwing commentators who have an outsized voice. It is so jarring to the vibe of what a music community used to represent.

    God I miss hanging out at the record stores, the clubs and the festivals. These nasty opinions would have been quashed in seconds and laughed out the door. It’s too bad.

    This forum has always been a great place. I have hundreds of music discussions in the Creations section. I enjoyed it very much and consciously avoided the Other section, except for a few posts about Greek food and gas prices. One day, some clown posted a political piece about Immigration and ICE in Creations. It was eventually moved to Other, and ended up being a 9 page political circle jerk. That was when the forum became a clown show to me. I decided to question the "authority" of the far left, and the results were exactly as expected.

    In Chicago we had numerous record stores. My favorite was Tempo Records and Tapes, where I bought Dark Side of the Moon. We also had many, many rocks clubs featuring popular local bands. One of my favorites was a group from Rockford called Cheap Trick. I could see them for $1.00 on Friday nights at the Red Lion, where they featured "Growler Night". A bucket of beer for $1.00. I once caught a pick from Rick Nielsen. I lost it. In 1998 we opened for them at a summer festival in Hoffman Estates. I mentioned it to him and he laughed and said... we're getting too old for this.

    Back in my day, nasty opinions wouldn't be laughed out the door. They would have been met in the parking lot. I never said I was right wing. I disagreed with you and you immediately jumped to that conclusion. You need to remember that not everybody agrees with you. You need to start talking to people outside your small circle. Their opinions are just as valid as yours, whether you like it or not.

  • @McD said:
    Now Trump change the game by splitting up immigrants families, so breaking into the US became less safe. That’s a policy that changed the incoming stats. Cruel but effective. Hitler probably didn’t want to kill Jews in mass but no one would accept them… there’s a clue where we end up if we put millions into centers. If will be cheaper to reduce their numbers.

    @espiegel123 said:
    @McD wrote: “Hitler probably didn’t want to kill Jews in mass but no one would accept them…”

    WTF!

    Poor Hitler. Look at what the world made him do.

    [previous paragraph is sarcasm — as I can’t believe you wrote those words. You don’t think up then execute a mass extermination machinery without wanting to do it.]

    Hitler wrote of wanting to exterminate Jews before he had any political power and made a speech in January 1939 (well before WWIi started in September) expressing the desire to exterminate all Jews in Europe.

    @espiegel123 DM’ed privately to discuss my comment above. I can clearly see why he called out for my comment on Hitler.
    It clearly matches the words of Holocaust deniers.

    I did want to highlight the indifference of many nations indifference to Jews requesting asylum and being refused a safe harbor.
    If more nations had anticipated the plight of millions of European Jews it might have made a difference in the totals killed.
    Using the “probably didn’t” changed the emphasis to Hitler and didn’t make my point about FDR’s refusal to let a ocean liner of Jews be granted asylum… I’m not sure where they ended up.

    Opening a new can of worms: the UK created a massive conflict in Palestine by performing a colonizing genocide(?) in Palestine and then turning that region over to the remaining European Jews after the war… the results have created instability in the modern state of Plalestine. The conflict over that land has created a strong right wing faction in Israel that has adopted the genocidal actions against Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank… the cycles of violence show no signs of being addressed. Certainly NOT by Trump’s “Board of Peace”. It’s madness hitting on all cylinders.

    Anyway, I hope this response helps @espiegel123 appreciate my efforts to clarify and correct my comment on Hitler that implied he just didn’t want to kill Jews. He most certainly did…

    Now, back to current times: What is Stephen Miller’s final solution to immigration. Deport? To where? Detain indefinitely without due process? Inquiring minds want to know. Personally, I don’t’ think he will survive the year after Trump sees the polling numbers that will threaten his control of congress. Noem is also not likely to make it through the year.

  • Here is a comparison of net totals for illegal alien deportations (removals, returns, expulsions, and repatriations) versus illegal aliens who entered the U.S. (primarily measured via southwest border encounters/apprehensions plus estimated gotaways, as proxies for attempted/actual illegal entries) under each administration. “Net” here refers to the rough balance: deportations/repatriations minus new illegal entries (positive net = more leaving than entering via enforcement; negative net = more entering than removed).

    These are approximate aggregates based on DHS/CBP data, Migration Policy Institute analyses, Pew Research, Brookings, and other sources. Exact “net illegal migration” is hard to pinpoint due to gotaways (evaders), visa overstays, deaths/emigration unrelated to enforcement, and varying definitions. Border encounters serve as the main proxy for attempted illegal entries, with many resulting in immediate returns/expulsions (especially under Title 42 or expedited processes). Interior removals target those already present.

    Numbers are fiscal year-based where possible (October-September), with Trump’s second term partial (Jan 2025–early 2026, ~1 year as of Feb 2026).

    Obama (both terms: FY 2009–2016, 8 years)
    • Total deportations/removals/returns: ~3–3.2 million (high formal removals, peaking ~400,000+/year; many interior-focused).
    • Border encounters/apprehensions: ~4–5 million total (declining trend from ~1 million/year early to ~400,000/year later; net migration from Mexico turned negative in some years due to returns > entries).
    • Net effect: Roughly balanced or slightly negative net illegal migration in later years (more removals/returns than sustained new entries; unauthorized population stable ~11 million). Enforcement removed many recent border crossers and interior illegal aliens, preventing large net increases.

    Biden (one term: FY 2021–2024, 4 years)
    • Total deportations/repatriations: ~4–4.4 million (including ~3 million Title 42 expulsions + standard removals/returns; FY 2024 alone ~778,000).
    • Border encounters: Record ~8–10 million (averaging ~2 million/year; peaks in 2023–2024; plus ~1.5–2 million estimated gotaways). Many encounters led to releases (~2.5–4 million released into U.S. pending proceedings), though high expulsions/returns offset some.
    • Net effect: Strongly positive net illegal entries (millions more entered/stayed than removed; unauthorized population grew significantly, estimates ~13–14 million by 2023–2024). High border volume overwhelmed even record repatriations, leading to large net increase.

    Trump (both terms, to date as of early 2026)
    • First term (FY 2017–2020, 4 years): ~1–1.5 million deportations/returns (lower than Obama; focused on interior but border encounters moderate ~2–3 million total).
    • Second term (~1 year, Jan 2025–early 2026): Official DHS claims ~600,000–675,000 deportations/removals + 1.9–2.2 million self-deportations (voluntary departures due to deterrence/enforcement); independent estimates ~500,000–600,000 formal deportations. Border encounters plummeted to historic lows (~90,000–100,000/year, down 95%+ from Biden peaks).
    • Combined to date: ~1.5–2.5 million deportations/returns + high self-deportations claimed.
    • Net effect: First term roughly neutral/slight positive net (stable unauthorized population). Second term strongly negative net (negative net migration estimates –10,000 to –295,000 in 2025 per Brookings; first negative in decades). Sharp drop in entries + increased interior removals/self-departures reversed inflows, with more leaving than entering illegally.

    In summary:
    • Obama: High deportations balanced high earlier entries, resulting in near-zero or negative net illegal migration over time.
    • Biden: Record entries far outpaced even high repatriations, massive positive net (large unauthorized increase).
    • Trump (combined): Lower deportations in first term but sharp reversal in second term with near-zero entries + aggressive enforcement/self-deportations, yielding negative net (more illegal aliens leaving than entering).

  • edited February 20

    .

  • @mcmillanjonmusic said:

    @Paulieworld said:
    Yes, it does. Sounds like good old fashioned common sense....Thank you!

    Your welcome sir!

    Don't bother reading the entire thread, unless you have some spare time.
    It's just the same old thing, over and over and over.

    Yah I read the next comment after mine that you're trolling and don't want honest conversation...then I skimmed the rest of the thread. If you are trolling, then I think it can be said that everyone is just trolling each other now. Seems like the 24-hour news channel shouting back and forth stuff.

    If no one has any proposals, then maybe this thread should be split off to an immigration debate thread.

    The title of the thread is "Immigration & I.C.E. - A call for proposals". Conversations around this topic are also up for discussion. That's why the "Other" section exists.

    The problem to date is there hasn't been enough discussion. The EU is also facing social fallout from their own immigration policies... what are the views of those living in the UK, Germany, Switzerland, etc.?

    And I'll reiterate my own positions before someone else claims to know what my views are: I'm pro-immigration. Legal immigration. Educated people from all over the world who add value to the country should be welcomed. I'm not in favor of allowing any immigration to the US from countries with a high occurrence of anti-US sentiment or known terrorists / terror cells. Why in the world should people who hate your country ever be allowed in?

  • Views in the UK are mixed, some have seemingly irrational fears of any migration, mostly in areas with very little inward population movement, while others are far more positive, seeing the economic and cultural advantages as desirable (generally speaking that’s those people in those areas with experience of immigrants) There are places, such as where I grew up in east Lancashire that had very high levels of immigration from former colonies that took place over the post war period so that we could populate and rebuild areas devastated by the war, and there are many resentments that have built up in those areas, largely as a result of the local population not having much drive or ambition to succeed beginning to feel ‘left behind’, while their new neighbours came with incredible levels of energy and have in many ways outperformed them. That’s a real issue that I’ve seen, and could be addressed not in resentment and hatred, but in education and encouragement to strive for better lives, rather than blame ill fortune and so called ‘woke ideology’. I’ve seen those with these resentments since an early age and could never understand it, but I’ve seen recent studies suggesting that this lack of ambition is endemic among sections of the population and remains unaddressed.

  • @Krupa said:
    Views in the UK are mixed, some have seemingly irrational fears of any migration, mostly in areas with very little inward population movement, while others are far more positive, seeing the economic and cultural advantages as desirable (generally speaking that’s those people in those areas with experience of immigrants) There are places, such as where I grew up in east Lancashire that had very high levels of immigration from former colonies that took place over the post war period so that we could populate and rebuild areas devastated by the war, and there are many resentments that have built up in those areas, largely as a result of the local population not having much drive or ambition to succeed beginning to feel ‘left behind’, while their new neighbours came with incredible levels of energy and have in many ways outperformed them. That’s a real issue that I’ve seen, and could be addressed not in resentment and hatred, but in education and encouragement to strive for better lives, rather than blame ill fortune and so called ‘woke ideology’. I’ve seen those with these resentments since an early age and could never understand it, but I’ve seen recent studies suggesting that this lack of ambition is endemic among sections of the population and remains unaddressed.

    Interesting. I'd like to see even more from people in the UK and EU post what are their impressions. And if you are a recent immigrant to either the UK or EU, what are your impressions?

  • edited February 2

    American Citizens testify about their unlawful ICE detainment

  • @NeuM said:
    Why in the world should people who hate your country ever be allowed in?

    Because many people are tortured, imprisoned without reasonable cause or in danger of being killed.
    They typically make a claim for asylum.

    Just off the top of my head I’m away of Somalis that have TPS (Temporary Protectd Status). As a group they re-vitalized the dying city of Minneapolis. Trump picked that city as a target for his ICE invasion… why? Because this group helped elect a Somali
    Person to Congress named Ilhan Omar. He has called her and her people “garbage” in an “othering” campaign. The general population of Minnesota has turned out in large numbers to protect anyone ICE harasses.

    Next on Trump’s agenda might be Springfield, Ohio where a large population of Haitians have settled and re-vitalized that town.
    Haiti is a terrible place with political unrest and a decimated economy. These Haitians also have a TPS order… Trump will cancel it and have ICE just round them up for detention or deportation back to the unrest in Haiti.

    Asylum is a thing… the government may hate America and a large segment in that country may follow the countries government in a “Death to America” campaign but there will often be people who just want a chance at a normal life.

    They are not criminals, animals, rapists, murders or deserving of any of Trump’s slanders. They just want a place to live a better life. The crime stats for immigrants are lowe than any other class of US citizens including some with generations of family in American.

    I hope that helps you have a little respect for those that fell for the Statue of Liberty:

    "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

    That message brought us the Irish, Italians, Japanese (who we treated very poorly during WWII), Koreans, Viet Namese, and so forth. All providing a glimpse into the cultures of their homelands and millions of great ethnic restaurants that are typically Mom and Pop businesses with kids working their way though school and becoming Doctors, Lawyers and very occassionally professional musicians or artists. Their parents just know which jobs can lead to a solid income.

    Empathy informs me that we all benefit from accepting these immigrants into our country… they contribute so much more than they take overall.

  • The overwhelming majority of undocumented immigrants, come here because they love the U.S. and what it (used to) stand for.

    Native-born Americans are responsible for far more violent crime than immigrants.

    All this fear of immigrants (including poor ones) is based on prejudice—as are our immigration quotas. During peak illegal immigration, the U.S. economy still thrived.

    It is hard for me to understand the point of view that illegal immigration is a dangerous invasion or that we should be engaging in the inhumane (and very expensive) tactics used by ICE and DHS. These tactics bleed the economy and degrade our own humanity.

  • I'm a US citizen and I fucking hate this country. So what? I should leave? Fuck that, we have something called freedom. Don't talk to me about immigration proposals until you get the Gestapo off our streets.

  • edited February 2

    @espiegel123 said:
    The overwhelming majority of undocumented immigrants, come here because they love the U.S. and what it (used to) stand for.

    Native-born Americans are responsible for far more violent crime than immigrants.

    All this fear of immigrants (including poor ones) is based on prejudice—as are our immigration quotas. During peak illegal immigration, the U.S. economy still thrived.

    It is hard for me to understand the point of view that illegal immigration is a dangerous invasion or that we should be engaging in the inhumane (and very expensive) tactics used by ICE and DHS. These tactics bleed the economy and degrade our own humanity.

    So all of these people are trying to get into a country that is more violent than the places they come from?

    There is no "right" to come into the US. Every nation exercises immigration controls. If they don't, they soon don't have a nation. And as was clearly pointed out eariler in the thread, Obama deported more people than Trump. So why shouldn't Trump be applying the same laws that Obama was enforcing?

  • @maxxpower18 said:
    I'm a US citizen and I fucking hate this country. So what? I should leave? Fuck that, we have something called freedom. Don't talk to me about immigration proposals until you get the Gestapo off our streets.

    I love this country. Best on earth. Don't love the government we usually end up with, but again, considering the alternatives, it's pretty damn good.

  • edited February 2

    @McD said:

    @NeuM said:
    Why in the world should people who hate your country ever be allowed in?

    Because many people are tortured, imprisoned without reasonable cause or in danger of being killed.
    They typically make a claim for asylum.

    Just off the top of my head I’m away of Somalis that have TPS (Temporary Protectd Status). As a group they re-vitalized the dying city of Minneapolis. Trump picked that city as a target for his ICE invasion… why? Because this group helped elect a Somali
    Person to Congress named Ilhan Omar. He has called her and her people “garbage” in an “othering” campaign. The general population of Minnesota has turned out in large numbers to protect anyone ICE harasses.

    Next on Trump’s agenda might be Springfield, Ohio where a large population of Haitians have settled and re-vitalized that town.
    Haiti is a terrible place with political unrest and a decimated economy. These Haitians also have a TPS order… Trump will cancel it and have ICE just round them up for detention or deportation back to the unrest in Haiti.

    Asylum is a thing… the government may hate America and a large segment in that country may follow the countries government in a “Death to America” campaign but there will often be people who just want a chance at a normal life.

    They are not criminals, animals, rapists, murders or deserving of any of Trump’s slanders. They just want a place to live a better life. The crime stats for immigrants are lowe than any other class of US citizens including some with generations of family in American.

    I hope that helps you have a little respect for those that fell for the Statue of Liberty:

    "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

    That message brought us the Irish, Italians, Japanese (who we treated very poorly during WWII), Koreans, Viet Namese, and so forth. All providing a glimpse into the cultures of their homelands and millions of great ethnic restaurants that are typically Mom and Pop businesses with kids working their way though school and becoming Doctors, Lawyers and very occassionally professional musicians or artists. Their parents just know which jobs can lead to a solid income.

    Empathy informs me that we all benefit from accepting these immigrants into our country… they contribute so much more than they take overall.

    The members of our military take an oath to protect and defend our Constitution, not the prose inscribed on the Statue of Liberty (which was a gift from France to the US).

    And every time someone who is politically Left says "immigrants" they are really referring to illegal aliens. There is a big, big difference between the two. Why do so many on the Left seem confused or feel that conflating two very different things is OK?

    Legal migration is great. Illegal immigration is not.

    Also, "TPS" means "temporary". That was never meant to be permanent.

  • Holy Strawman, Batman

  • @Paulieworld said:
    One day, some clown posted a political piece about Immigration and ICE in Creations.

    How community spirited of you…
    Imagine having the audacity to post a protest track about what’s going on in the US! I guess you would have put Bruce Springsteen in his place as well. What a clown!

  • @gusgranite said:

    @Paulieworld said:
    One day, some clown posted a political piece about Immigration and ICE in Creations.

    How community spirited of you…
    Imagine having the audacity to post a protest track about what’s going on in the US! I guess you would have put Bruce Springsteen in his place as well. What a clown!

    Personal attacks are completely unwarranted. If you have an opinion, go ahead and voice it. "Other" is the place to do it. But personal attacks are not upholding the spirit of this site.

  • @NeuM said:

    Personal attacks are completely unwarranted. If you have an opinion, go ahead and voice it. "Other" is the place to do it. But personal attacks are not upholding the spirit of this site.

    Gus was responding to an insult aimed at him using the same word that had been aimed at him. I notice you didn’t object to insults made by the person whose immigration stance you agree with.

  • @NeuM said:

    @gusgranite said:

    @Paulieworld said:
    One day, some clown posted a political piece about Immigration and ICE in Creations.

    How community spirited of you…
    Imagine having the audacity to post a protest track about what’s going on in the US! I guess you would have put Bruce Springsteen in his place as well. What a clown!

    Personal attacks are completely unwarranted. If you have an opinion, go ahead and voice it. "Other" is the place to do it. But personal attacks are not upholding the spirit of this site.

    Flagged.

  • More and more US government attorneys are resigning rather than be be complicit in ICE’s frequently lawless and inhumane actions

  • edited February 3

    @Paulieworld said:
    One day, some clown posted a political piece about Immigration and ICE in Creations.

    Why not just say "someone posted a political piece about Immigration and ICE in Creations"?

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @NeuM said:

    Personal attacks are completely unwarranted. If you have an opinion, go ahead and voice it. "Other" is the place to do it. But personal attacks are not upholding the spirit of this site.

    Gus was responding to an insult aimed at him using the same word that had been aimed at him. I notice you didn’t object to insults made by the person whose immigration stance you agree with.

    The original quote said "some clown".

  • @gusgranite said:

    @NeuM said:

    @gusgranite said:

    @Paulieworld said:
    One day, some clown posted a political piece about Immigration and ICE in Creations.

    How community spirited of you…
    Imagine having the audacity to post a protest track about what’s going on in the US! I guess you would have put Bruce Springsteen in his place as well. What a clown!

    Personal attacks are completely unwarranted. If you have an opinion, go ahead and voice it. "Other" is the place to do it. But personal attacks are not upholding the spirit of this site.

    Flagged.

    Flags are for the regular forum threads.

  • edited February 3

    @NeuM said:
    Flags are for the regular forum threads.

    Just to clarify for everyone: flags do apply in the Other category as well.

    That said, the bar is intentionally higher here. Other exists to allow discussion that may be political, opinionated, or contentious without requiring constant moderation.

    Flags in Other are appropriate for things like:
    • Direct threats or advocacy of violence
    • Harassment or stalking behaviour
    • Explicit calls for illegal activity
    • Serious personal attacks directed at forum members

    Flags are not intended for:
    • Political disagreement
    • Provocation or satire
    • Rudeness, sarcasm, or tone you dislike
    • Arguments you think are wrong or offensive but not rule-breaking

    As elsewhere on the forum, moderation is based on behaviour, not viewpoints. When in doubt, disengaging is often the better option.

    If in doubt, ask yourself: Is this worth pulling Michael away from working on the next Loopy Pro features? If yes, then flag. If no, walk away.

  • edited February 3

    @espiegel123 said:
    More and more US government attorneys are resigning rather than be be complicit in ICE’s frequently lawless and inhumane actions

    ICE's actions have been within their guidelines and they have not broken the law. The mobs attacking and impeding ICE (both Federal crimes, by the way)... I wonder if they will be held responsible for their clearly illegal actions?

    And by the way, in the District of Minnesota (covering the entire state), the official U.S. Department of Justice website (as of late January 2025) states that the office has approximately 140 total staff, including more than 70 Assistant U.S. Attorneys. So... the departure of six is hardly a "mass exit".

  • @NeuM said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    More and more US government attorneys are resigning rather than be be complicit in ICE’s frequently lawless and inhumane actions

    ICE's actions have been within their guidelines and they have not broken the law.

    Ice guidelines state not to stand in front of vehicles.
    Their guidelines also state not to shoot into moving vehicles.
    Killing protesters in situations where lethal force is clearly not required is definitely illegal.
    To argue this would be facistic.

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