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Mac! Welcome back, I’ll try to give a few of these tracks a listen soon. No promises though..
Always loved the AI videos you used to do!
Edward!
How have you been doing?
Good to hear from you again 🤘
No worries about listening or not, just glad to know you are still here.
I still follow you on YouTube , just checked out your Otoo demo video. Nice!
Hope life is treating you well
Take care
Mac
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I’m sensing a hostile “vibe” there, yes? And if so I wholeheartedly approve. “It is just another tool.” Oil is just another tool. And last century when oil was getting huge, the science was saying oil could be bad in the long run and here we are on the verge of baking a planet and wiping out civilizations because of it. Along similar lines doctors used to recommend smoking cigarettes to people. While I have no doubt that there are some so-called drs still doing this, it isn’t accepted science. I get that oil is how this planet feeds 8 billion plus people, but at what cost? Maybe if the world had listened to those scientists so long ago, oh wait, the petroleum companies buried that information. But yeah, unlimited LLM use in a world run by megalomaniacs? It’s fine. It’s fine.
I second Jim’s motion to bury LLM content on this forum. I’m here for clever humans making clever music using clever apps also made by clever people. The less LLM’s and the more of passing knowledge on person to person via lessons, apprenticeships, etc. the better. If you don’t have skills that you need for a project then collab with someone who does or hire someone. Or just make art as it should be made: personal, yes, even flawed.
While my knee-jerk reaction is that I’m for it (minus the hostile vibe), but it doesn’t sound like such an inclusive place anymore, something that @jwmmakerofmusic was a proponent of and hopefully still is. And then at what point do we stop? Sample-based music creators getting their own subforum? Another subforum for creations made with MIDI tools? What about people who only used AI for mastering? Which category would you have them? And what of the creators here who don’t use ios for their creations at all? I feel it’s all good as long as members are transparent in their description with their original post.
I’m not interested in listening to your AI enhanced material @MadeofWax , but i Do wanna say thank you because there was a time not too far behind us, when we were coming out of a pandemic and AI was new. Times seemed dark, but your AI video collaborations with Paulieworld was light for me during hopeless times. What a ride!
Here is my take. If we are going to be "purists", we should not be using computers at all. All we really need is some staff paper and a quill pen. It was difficult and time consuming to compose a symphony or an opera, but the great ones did it with just their imagination and talent. If we are going to draw a line in the sand, that's where I draw it. No computers... period. But I'm not a purist. Anything goes.
I don't use AI, but only because I enjoy the creative process on my iPad. I don't use any keyboards, guitars, or external controllers. I rely on MIDI generating apps and DAWs to help me. Decades ago I would bring sheet music to my band mates. They would look at me funny and say... let's just jam.
I second that. Let's just jam!
LOL! I see what you did there. 🤣
Skynet. 🤣
Exactly my sentiments, but much better and more thoroughly explained. Being Mac's friend, I figured I'd try to gently persuade him from using AI to "enhance" his music and try to nudge him back to working on his own music without the involvement of using AI to generate content. I didn't want to come off as sanctimonious.
The thing is, I don't want to risk losing our clever creators due to any possible allowing of AI content here. I've tried to reach a compromise with my proposed "separate the wheat from the chaff" idea to try and still be "inclusive", but upon second thought, it could backfire and encourage people to use AI to generate content instead of dissuade them from doing so.
AI content is a different matter than sampling, MIDI, computer tools, not using iOS, etc. AI negatively impacts the environment, what with building datacenters that eat up a lot of energy to train stolen data and such. AI has the potential to negatively impact jobs and already impacts jobs such as freelance work. Etc. AI is where I'd draw the line.
Yeah, back in those days, when AI was new, there was a "honeymoon period" where I generated album covers to slap text overtop of. Back then, it was a novelty, and I was ignorant to the ethical issues. I educated myself in early 2025 by researching the issues online and learning that it cheapened my music (music which is 100% human made, but could bring into question if it was human made at all due to generated AI album covers!)
The point with the above paragraph is - those AI video collabs were okay for the time and place, back when times were dark and AI was a novelty. However, I'm not so certain those would fly today. Not with me at least.
I certainly wasn't trying to reopen the AI / non AI debate when I started this thread
I simply wanted to say thank you to my friends who encouraged me
We could debate the environmental impact of a traditional film versus AI, or the same with traditional music tours, flying from studio to studio in the old days before home studios killed off that part of the industry
But at the end of the day I don't feel like having an argument in a thread that was meant to be a celebration
I can never say thanks enough to the kind people that made me feel like this place was home
@Blipsford_Baubie , if anything I had a part of creating helped make a dark time easier then I'm happy 😁
I'll do my best to not kick the proverbial wasps nest in the future
It's been great seeing the names I recognize from days gone by
I wish you all the best
Mac
Be well. Pay us a visit now and again.
It is a bit weird for me. The way we use AI at work for making game graphics (worlds/characters/GUI/marketing images etc) feels (from a creative point of view) just like using sample libraries, generative midi, kits, presets etc. Largely because it is not as simple as 'prompt and ghost' which is most folks perception of AI, who don't actually have to make large cohesive and ambitious projects with it. Lots of people at work hate it but to me it feels like how I have been making music for the past 30+ years. None of them make music though so the comparison often falls on deaf ears there.
Really I have no problem with a No-AI stance on the forum as it just doesn't interest me outside of commercial competition. The tools will have to get way better (and preferably open source) before I feel remotely creative with it, like I do with graphics. With graphics I can visualize something and make it leveraging some AI, speeding up the overall process. With music, the models/services are too overtrained and take over way too much.
Just today saw this graph in an Atlantic article:
Wow! Excellent!!
I was literally thinking of you today, Mac. Pls dm me your email . I want to send you some AI I’m involved in.
Hope all is well. I’m infrequent around here, too. Putting together my 99th album. Then a collab with @Jankun for #100. Then I think I’m gonna make movies!
Interesting thread, and my thanks to @MadeofWax for posting about his project.
For anyone interested, I asked ChatGPT to compare the opinions of painters and other visual artists regarding the advent of photography to the current opinions of many musicians regarding AI music. There are some interesting parallels. Of course, photography has long been accepted as a legitimate art form.
Whether that ever happens for AI music remains to be seen. But there are certainly important elements of human decision-making in the production of AI music. For example, it seems relevant that @MadeofWax has curated the various AI renderings of his musical ideas and is now offering to others specific versions that he thinks best represents his original idea.
For now, people's opinions differ on whether this can be accepted as art, but over time one or the other view may become predominant. Maybe AI music will become generally accepted as art, albeit of a lower form. Maybe this would be similar to photography, which although it is generally accepted as legitimate art, I think there are still some visual artists who consider photography to be a lower form of art than, e.g., painting,
Anyway, here are some comments regarding that by ChatGPT:
https://chatgpt.com/share/6a108fa5-66e0-83a6-b3f9-292aa70ba9c5
MIke ( @LinearLineman ) you do know that AI doesn’t stand for Arthritic Improvisation don’t you 😊
Sure AI can be art, and there are some similarities to the way photography was perceived when first invented.
But the differences are significant. Even in Chatgpt's answer it flags a few:
"Humans often value art partly because it represents another human mind. Knowing a fellow human struggled, practiced, suffered, or expressed emotion through the work changes how audiences experience it."
"industrial-scale content generation"
"training on artists’ works without consent"
Also, just because today synths and photos are commonplace and we mostly accept them, doesn't mean they didn't have downsides.
The biggest danger with AI is that it operates on a scale utterly unlike any previous content generator. Reams of content can be made by a very small number of people. But the market for content is already saturated. Hence demand can't match supply, and human creators get squeezed out.
And while a few people are making great art with it, the internet is flooded with slop tweets, slop videos and images, non-human voiceovers, and bots.
That and the fact that big tech companies don't have our best interests at heart. Oh, and the horrific energy use. And a hundred other downsides.
So wonderful to see your open-minded approach to the latest tools in the never-ending creative advances of music technology!
I’ll never forget the first time I played my Casio keyboard with a built-in “fake” drummer! It’s great to see you experiencing a new kind of magic in music making!
Elephant? What elephant? Musical preferences are normal. When I was a kid, everyone was walking around, saying, "Disco sucks!" Nowadays, plenty of people still like disco. I personally don't like most country music with lyrics, but I enjoy instrumental country music.
There’s nothing wrong with not liking music after you’ve learned it was created with an AI instrument. Musical preferences are very personal and should be respected.
It’s perfectly fine not to like AI.
I was trying to be as polite as possible with Mac, because I respect him as a forum member, musician, and friend. I never said it wasn't fine to not like AI. I'm not sure where you're getting that other assumption from. 😂
Oh, I’m sorry about misunderstanding. What did you mean by “elephant in the room?”
Well mate, I meant "elephant in the room" to mean "the fact Mac is using generative AI". 😂 Again, that was just me being polite. I know some people who hate generative AI usage tend to veer towards outright aggression and finger-pointing whilst donning a sanctimonious, condescending attitude. Those sorts of anti-AI people are insufferable.
I mean, I'm against generative AI usage myself. I once used to dabble in generative AI back in 2022-2024 (back when I didn't know any better, used Wonder.AI to generate quick album covers to slap text overtop of, and was ignorant to the pitfalls of generative AI), but I choose to handle things through kindness and politeness while trying to gently redirect the person to recognize their own superb skills. ☺️
And if the person doesn't wish to stop using AI, that's their choice. I don't control the world, and neither does any condescending anti-AI crusader either.
😂
So happy to hear from you😁
I mentioned you in an X thread when someone asked about jazz and wondered how you were doing.
I’ll send you a message
Have you all ever looked at the environmental cost of AI ?
Yes, I have
I will say this one more time
I did not post this to debate AI
Feel free to look into the environmental impact of raising animals for food if you really want to be angry about something
How many trees are cut down to make musical instruments?
We all make choices about the morality of the things we consume
AI is allowing me to connect to people in ways I couldn't do otherwise
And it allows people who didn't have the money for music lessons to express themselves too
I don't want to turn this celebration into yet another argument
I've made up my mind and I'm very happy with my decision
Hope you have a wonderful day
Mac
@MadeofWax , I must rebuttle one thing you said. "I did not post this to debate AI". I'm sorry, Mac, but you need to set your expectations a bit more realistically. Posting AI generated stuff in this forum is basically taking a stick to poke a hornet's nest. 😂 In other words, you should expect there to be a little bit of backlash and maybe getting a few stings along the way.
I intentionally posted this thread in the “ Music/Other” section specifically created for this type of post back when I still felt welcome here
I had hoped that people would respect that
Apparently I was mistaken
I won’t make that mistake again
May you all have the life you deserve
Mac
Oooo, sassy. Alright mate, you can continue playing with your AI toys, and I'll continue making income by taking music commissions that are 100% human made. 😉
A friend of mine has been doing this with songs I made 30+ years ago. It's pretty cool to re-imagine them as they might sound professionally covered, even if it's not real.
I totally agree. Go post a Ai generated comic book in a forum were people draw and tell them it’s dedicate to them. See how they feel about it.
As I said above, I'm hearing the same thing done to my songs lately. No way I'll be showing to anyone though. But then again, it's cool to here an approximation of what a real band might do with your song. I'd love to hear genuine covers of my music. I can see why someone might be excited enough to want to show it off, not me though.