Comments

• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 29

  @Poppadocrock said:

  @jwmmakerofmusic said:
  Outstanding @Poppadocrock ! Thank you so much for the help. Appreciate you mate. I'll be checking out all the resources you gave me. I'm definitely aware of Rhymezone and Thesaurus.com already, so I'm ahead in that regard.

  ---

  @mjcouche I'm thinking that reading more classic poetry would be a good way to get into the mindset of meter, rhyme, etc. I do understand well the human condition outside of myself (from various perspectives), but the trick is figuring out how to put various aspects of said condition into various songs, lyrics, etc. 😂 In fact, I'd argue one of the best songs regarding the human condition and world peace is John Lennon's "Imagine".

  As you probably know, I can create melodies, harmonies, and beats and such just fine. Instrumentals. It's when I get to the words I get stuck. I think what I need to do is practice "flow state" type of writing. Just writing down words and words related to words, phrases from conversations I overheard/have with people, etc, in my notebook. Maybe a song (or even an EP of songs) may spur from that. Like, if I start writing a song and too many ideas are being crammed into the narrative of said song, the ideas could be all split off into their own songs.

  Just riffing off some ideas I thought about and wanted to share in this thread, both as a reminder to myself, and perhaps helpful to anyone who stumbles upon this thread. Cheers.

  Im glad you brought it up. It’s not as frequently discussed as making music is in this forum.

  Reading poetry will definitely help. Reading in general will help, i look up any words i don't know, and keep a list of the ones i like. Creating lyrics and vocal patterns is one of the things Ive always been pretty decent at doing. Listening to more music will help a lot too, especially music that’s maybe not in your usual rotation, but has great vocals and vocal arrangements.

  I would definitely recommend listening to some great musicians/songwriters that are highly regarded for their vocal abilities too. Obviously the Beatles, i like Elliot Smith, & Jeff Buckley a lot too. Motown, soul, & R&B stuff is great. Holland, Dozier, Holland, the writing trio behind a lot of Motown hits, were phenomenal writers. Otis Redding, Stevie wonder, Michael Jackson, Smokey Robinson are all some of my favorite singers. Nina Simone is another unique talent. There's too many to mention.

  Also get out of your listening comfort zone and explore. Here’s an example of what i mean, The song by Madonna “Take A Bow” written by babyface is a phenomenal track. Give it a listen. I don’t typically listen to Madonna, no offense to Madonna fans, but she’s just not in my normal rotation. However, that song is so good, and the vocal arrangement is so great, i cant help but love it. I heard it somewhere a few years ago for the first time in a while and i realized how brilliant it was. So try to get out of your listening comfort zone occasionally, and explore some different singers & songwriters to see what catches your ear.

  Personally when trying to write lyrics i like to hum or just make sounds to find out how i would like the vocal pattern to go, then once i have the vocal rhythm or rhythms i like, then i fit the lyrics into the vocal rhythm.

  Interesting. Yeah, I do like Madonna and have probably heard "Take a Bow" before, but I'll give it an active listen. Well, once I finish my third listen-through of BoC's "Inferno" that is, lol.

  I do listen to many various genres, and one of the best genres for "storytelling" lyrics in my opinion formed from personal observation is "Country" music, especially from the late 90s and earlier. Although I am a huge fan of Lainey Wilson, think she's beautiful 🫣 , and I absolutely love her songs like "Watermelon Moonshine" and "4x4xU". Country isn't even my favorite genre of music, but I love Country just the same.
• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 30

  Okay, so "Great Songwriting Techniques" by Jack Perricone is the next book I'll read after I finish Jeff Tweedy's book. Yeah that f--ker costed me 50 quid, but it's the only book out of the bunch that uses music notation and theory to explain how lyrics fit into a song. 🤯
• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 30 edited May 30

  Alrighty, so I'm hitting the brick wall (and that's not a Pink Floyd reference this time, lol) with reading and trying to figure things out. I think what I need is a surefire method of writing songs that works for me. I can't for the life of me seem to evolve beyond simple beginning stages regarding writing lyrics.

  Okay, so I think what I'm looking for is quick advice that summarizes what I'm trying to figure out rather than books on the subject (although the books are super handy for deep info dives). Like a step-by-step list of questions/prompts for me to answer. I wonder if @Butterfrog can help at all here. I know starting a song involves these first two questions...

  1. What is the song title?
  2. What is the song concept?

  Beyond that, I'm drawing blanks. 🫣
• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 30

  @jwmmakerofmusic said:
  Alrighty, so I'm hitting the brick wall (and that's not a Pink Floyd reference this time, lol) with reading and trying to figure things out. I think what I need is a surefire method of writing songs that works for me. I can't for the life of me seem to evolve beyond simple beginning stages regarding writing lyrics.

  Okay, so I think what I'm looking for is quick advice that summarizes what I'm trying to figure out rather than books on the subject (although the books are super handy for deep info dives). Like a step-by-step list of questions for me to answer. I wonder if @Butterfrog can help at all here. I know starting a song involves these first two questions...

  1. What is the song title?
  2. What is the song concept?

  Beyond that, I'm drawing blanks. 🫣

  And if @richardyot has advice too, I'm "all ears".
• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 31

  "Successful Lyric Writing" by Sheila Davis arrived today, and this should be the key book I should've started with. I guess what I needed was a well-written workbook rather than a bunch of "how to" books. I'll read those soon, but meanwhile, this will be the book I start reading front to back and use a notebook alongside it.
• Butterfrog

  May 31 edited May 31

  @jwmmakerofmusic said:
  "Successful Lyric Writing" by Sheila Davis arrived today, and this should be the key book I should've started with. I guess what I needed was a well-written workbook rather than a bunch of "how to" books. I'll read those soon, but meanwhile, this will be the book I start reading front to back and use a notebook alongside it.

  I think you found the quick advise you were looking for. these basics are all in the first chapter i think.Again I would advise getting "the craft of lyric writing" cause it goes deeper into the building blocks that you are handed i "successful lyric writing" it also provides excellent examples that will make help you be a critical listener all on your own.
  Indeed a lot of these how-to books are just motivational with a few writing excerises thrown in for good measure.

  I do have a soft spot for Jeff tweedy's books though because he keeps it personal, acknowledges his privileges and demons, has a few nice insights and a very unique excercise that most of the people i work with get very excited about.

  'Writing better lyrics' by patt patinson is pretty OK but nothing mindblowing after having read the craft of lyric writing but would be my most recommend to do next or after tweedy.

  'Great songwriting techniques' somehow flew under my radar so I ordered it. It does look interesting but I also sceptic that the music theory hook will distract from core concept of lyric writing. Namely: thinking about, understanding, finding and writing subjects for lyrics.

  Stick with sheila davis. Invest 50 dollars in her book. 1 expensive good investment beats 10 cheap ok/bad ones.

  And stop purchasing or looking for more book! Books are just like apps. They feel like an investment into yourself and thus are highly collectable but you actually have to read them to get your monies worth! 1 book at a time will make sure you actually read it.
• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 31

  @Butterfrog said:

  @jwmmakerofmusic said:
  "Successful Lyric Writing" by Sheila Davis arrived today, and this should be the key book I should've started with. I guess what I needed was a well-written workbook rather than a bunch of "how to" books. I'll read those soon, but meanwhile, this will be the book I start reading front to back and use a notebook alongside it.

  I think you found the quick advise you were looking for. these basics are all in the first chapter i think.Again I would advise getting "the craft of lyric writing" cause it goes deeper into the building blocks that you are handed i "successful lyric writing" it also provides excellent examples that will make help you be a critical listener all on your own.
  Indeed a lot of these how-to books are just motivational with a few writing excerises thrown in for good measure.

  I do have a soft spot for Jeff tweedy's books though because he keeps it personal, acknowledges his privileges and demons, has a few nice insights and a very unique excercise that most of the people i work with get very excited about.
  
  'Writing better lyrics' by patt patinson is pretty OK but nothing mindblowing after having read the craft of lyric writing but would be my most recommend to do next or after tweedy.

  'Great songwriting techniques' somehow flew under my radar so I ordered it. It does look interesting but I also sceptic that the music theory hook will distract from core concept of lyric writing. Namely: thinking about, understanding, finding and writing subjects for lyrics.

  Stick with sheila davis. Invest 50 dollars in her book. 1 expensive good investment beats 10 cheap ok/bad ones.

  And stop purchasing or looking for more book! Books are just like apps. They feel like an investment into yourself and thus are highly collectable but you actually have to read them to get your monies worth! 1 book at a time will make sure you actually read it.

  Thanks mate. I can't believe I fell down the "appholism" rabbit hole with books. 🫣 I should be old enough to know better than that. 😂 Okay, fine, I purchased the other Sheila Davis book. And that's it for book purchases. Hopefully Sheila Davis' books will instill in my head what's needed for quickly learning to churn out song after song.
• Butterfrog

  May 31

  I know how you feel man. I've been there too.

  After sheila davis you should have all the building blocks. dunno about churning out songs but if by then you have difficulty finding the discipline consider the book 'the artists way' by Julia Cameron (a lot of patt's homework for life excercises are from that book in some form) but mostly it will just be practice, working with others and even more practice every day to get better and faster. It's a craft after all ,)

  Sorry for being so present in this thread but this is actually the subject I am really passionate about and it doesn't really pop up on these forums
• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 31

  @Butterfrog said:
  I know how you feel man. I've been there too.

  After sheila davis you should have all the building blocks. dunno about churning out songs but if by then you have difficulty finding the discipline consider the book 'the artists way' by Julia Cameron (a lot of patt's homework for life excercises are from that book in some form) but mostly it will just be practice, working with others and even more practice every day to get better and faster. It's a craft after all ,)

  Sorry for being so present in this thread but this is actually the subject I am really passionate about and it doesn't really pop up on these forums

  I would prefer you to be present in this thread than not. You're being extremely helpful, and I'm glad you're passionate about songwriting. I need the guidance to be honest. Nothing to apologize for, my good friend.
• JeffChasteen

  May 31

  I found Jimmy Webb’s book to be helpful, and it’s a great read!
• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 31

  @JeffChasteen said:
  I found Jimmy Webb’s book to be helpful, and it’s a great read!

  Thanks mate. That one is already on the way and should be delivered tomorrow. I ordered it before my mate @Butterfrog suggested to stick to Sheila Davis' books. Once these final ones arrive, then I'll be all set.
• Butterfrog

  May 31

  @jwmmakerofmusic To set your mind at ease: tunesmith is also a great book. Jimmy webb actually refers to sheila davis's book a few times and sheila davis also refers to jimmy web somewhere (forgot where) so it's not money lost and you got the golden standard for theorybooks about songwriting.
• jwmmakerofmusic

  May 31

  @Butterfrog said:
  @jwmmakerofmusic To set your mind at ease: tunesmith is also a great book. Jimmy webb actually refers to sheila davis's book a few times and sheila davis also refers to jimmy web somewhere (forgot where) so it's not money lost and you got the golden standard for theorybooks about songwriting.

  Excellent! Thank you so much mate.
• jwmmakerofmusic

  June 3

  Finished Jeff Tweedy's Book. Great read! Took some notes of the exercises in the book which I'll share below...

  
  
  
  

  If you can read my shitty handwriting, you should be good to go! 😂 Some of the other books I have are chock full of writing exercises, but I feel my starting with just these seven exercises should be more than plenty to keep me busy.

  ---

  I also purchased a 6-pack of "Little Fat" notebooks for "on the go" writing. Whether lyric fragments, rhyme schemes, song ideas and titles, etc.

  

  Sure I could use my iPhone for jotting down quick notes, but I find myself being in a better flow-state working in "analog" rather than "digital", saving my phone for rhymezone and thesaurus. 😂
• FizzyLizzy27

  June 3

  Here’s another notebook tip: someone mentioned sticky notes. I usually buy a pack, pull about 4-5 off the top, and stick those on the front page of my notebook. It’s nice to have a few moving pieces in the journal.

  Just whatever you do, don’t get any moleskine notebooks. You’ll get addicted to note-booking and likely become a notebook snob.

  I think I count 8 moleskins under my desk, 3 misc. brands, and a few sketch pads.
  
• jwmmakerofmusic

  June 3

  @FizzyLizzy27 said:
  Here’s another notebook tip: someone mentioned sticky notes. I usually buy a pack, pull about 4-5 off the top, and stick those on the front page of my notebook. It’s nice to have a few moving pieces in the journal.

  Just whatever you do, don’t get any moleskine notebooks. You’ll get addicted to note-booking and likely become a notebook snob.

  I think I count 8 moleskins under my desk, 3 misc. brands, and a few sketch pads.
  

  Lol! Those Moleskine notebooks do look nice, but they aren't spiral bound, so it's a "no go" for me. The only non-spiral bound notebooks I trust are Composition notebooks. Period. That said, what a cool collection of notebooks you got!
• jwmmakerofmusic

  June 3

  Saw a cool Youtube video about a quote John Lennon said to summarize songwriting as a whole. I took notes as the speaker elaborated on said quote.

  
  

  Again, good luck reading my crappy handwriting. 😂
• jwmmakerofmusic

  June 3

  And watched a couple more videos and took notes. See the following...

  
  

  Should be helpful to anyone looking for songwriting tips and tricks.
• richardyot

  9:47AM

  @jwmmakerofmusic said:

  @jwmmakerofmusic said:
  Alrighty, so I'm hitting the brick wall (and that's not a Pink Floyd reference this time, lol) with reading and trying to figure things out. I think what I need is a surefire method of writing songs that works for me. I can't for the life of me seem to evolve beyond simple beginning stages regarding writing lyrics.

  Okay, so I think what I'm looking for is quick advice that summarizes what I'm trying to figure out rather than books on the subject (although the books are super handy for deep info dives). Like a step-by-step list of questions for me to answer. I wonder if @Butterfrog can help at all here. I know starting a song involves these first two questions...

  1. What is the song title?
  2. What is the song concept?

  Beyond that, I'm drawing blanks. 🫣

  And if @richardyot has advice too, I'm "all ears".

  I think you're doing just fine, just keep putting the work in and learning - and accept that it will take time and a lot of practice. Right now you're devouring as much information as you can on the subject, which is an essential step, but you will also need to put the time in doing the actual writing. But don't worry, if you put the work in, it will pay off.
• jwmmakerofmusic

  12:15PM

  @richardyot said:

  @jwmmakerofmusic said:

  @jwmmakerofmusic said:
  Alrighty, so I'm hitting the brick wall (and that's not a Pink Floyd reference this time, lol) with reading and trying to figure things out. I think what I need is a surefire method of writing songs that works for me. I can't for the life of me seem to evolve beyond simple beginning stages regarding writing lyrics.

  Okay, so I think what I'm looking for is quick advice that summarizes what I'm trying to figure out rather than books on the subject (although the books are super handy for deep info dives). Like a step-by-step list of questions for me to answer. I wonder if @Butterfrog can help at all here. I know starting a song involves these first two questions...

  1. What is the song title?
  2. What is the song concept?

  Beyond that, I'm drawing blanks. 🫣

  And if @richardyot has advice too, I'm "all ears".

  I think you're doing just fine, just keep putting the work in and learning - and accept that it will take time and a lot of practice. Right now you're devouring as much information as you can on the subject, which is an essential step, but you will also need to put the time in doing the actual writing. But don't worry, if you put the work in, it will pay off.

  Oh I definitely know it'll take time and a lot of practice, mate. Now I'm in "learning mode" and taking notes along the way, and I'll continue sharing those notes here with you wonderful folks.