Anima physical modelling synth released.

Robin2 · 8:37AM

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/anima-synthesizer/id6780281462

I’m always interested in physical modelling but can’t find much info on this beyond the developer’s website. Anyone have any experience of it? @RedSkyLullaby, you made some presets for it, yes?

waka_x · 8:47AM

very interesting:)
Hope @Gavinski or / and @RedSkyLullaby
will provide a video demo.

Gavinski · 9:01AM

Not planning to cover this, I got a lot of other stuff on my plate tbh

Philandering_Bastard · 9:17AM

Perhaps this is inspired by the sadly out-of-production Anyma Phi?

Philandering_Bastard · 9:19AM

That being said it does not have audio input or am I wrong?

catbox · 10:25AM

@Robin2 said:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/anima-synthesizer/id6780281462

I’m always interested in physical modelling but can’t find much info on this beyond the developer’s website. Anyone have any experience of it? @RedSkyLullaby, you made some presets for it, yes?

I couldn't even find the website! Am very intrigued too, but would love to see a manual of some kind.

Krupa · 10:29AM

Looks pretty cool, I might try it on the Mac today, eight notes for an interesting modelling synth is pretty good especially cross platform

oldsynthguy · 10:42AM

Reminds me a bit, of Fors Tela: https://fors.fm/tela Actually one of my favourite synths, that one.

u0421793 · 10:57AM

Unreadable

u0421793 · 10:57AM

Unreadable

Loups · 11:07AM

I took a chance because it looked like it might respond to a wind controller. No luck there, but it's a very nice synth. Physical modelling is more convincing than the demos on the store listing might suggest.

drewinnit · 11:15AM

nice to see not one but two videos with sound demos in the App Store 👍

Fantastic · 12:10PM

@drewinnit said:
nice to see not one but two videos with sound demos in the App Store 👍

Looks like a really creative MPE implementing physical modeling, really tempted to pull the trigger immediately. Unclear what the flexibility of modulation mapping is, but the wording that "timbre axis tilts the tone" sounds like thoughtful pre-mapping might have been done, @RedSkyLullaby I don't suppose you could share on what mapping affordances are?

@Loups said:
I took a chance because it looked like it might respond to a wind controller. No luck there, but it's a very nice synth. Physical modelling is more convincing than the demos on the store listing might suggest.

That sucks, definitely a prime candidate for a wind controller, I wonder if they could update that, much like a SWAM midi profile lets you choose between controlllers, or if there is an in between layer you could implement to translate breath etc to aftertouch and CC74 on its way in to the synth?
I quite like the unconvincing demos, which suggests some decently physically alien possibilities.

Gavinski · 12:18PM

I tried to tell the dev that mpe was not working correctly in the AUv3. He insisted that all controllers would send the pitch bend info to the app and the app would know how much pitch bend was needed to get mpe working. Maybe some controllers send that info, but many don't. None I tried did. Therefore mpe pitch bend does not work for me at all normally when using the AUv3, the AUv3 lacks the settings needed to dial the range in. Mpe pitch bend works normally when using the inbuilt keyboard in standalone. Every mpe plugin needs settings where you adjust the pitch bend. Maybe if more people give the dev feedback that mpe is not working as expected, this will eventually get fixed.

MPE continues to be a minefield on iOS, as many devs think they understand what a good implementation looks like, but few do...

Fantastic · 12:25PM

@Gavinski said:
I tried to tell the dev that mpe was not working correctly in the AUv3. He insisted that all controllers would send the pitch bend info to the app and the app would know how much pitch bend was needed to get mpe working. Maybe some controllers send that info, but many don't. None I tried did. Therefore mpe pitch bend does not work for me at all normally when using the AUv3, the AUv3 lacks the settings needed to dial the range in. Mpe pitch bend works normally when using the inbuilt keyboard in standalone. Every mpe plugin needs settings where you adjust the pitch bend. Maybe if more people give the dev feedback that mpe is not working as expected, this will eventually get fixed.

That's a real shame. I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set. And other MPE mapping customizing? or that's off putting enough to not dig further?

Gavinski · 1:17PM

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:
I tried to tell the dev that mpe was not working correctly in the AUv3. He insisted that all controllers would send the pitch bend info to the app and the app would know how much pitch bend was needed to get mpe working. Maybe some controllers send that info, but many don't. None I tried did. Therefore mpe pitch bend does not work for me at all normally when using the AUv3, the AUv3 lacks the settings needed to dial the range in. Mpe pitch bend works normally when using the inbuilt keyboard in standalone. Every mpe plugin needs settings where you adjust the pitch bend. Maybe if more people give the dev feedback that mpe is not working as expected, this will eventually get fixed.

That's a real shame. I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set. And other MPE mapping customizing? or that's off putting enough to not dig further?

I gave up once I couldn't get pitch bend working, so I really can't answer that! Edit: That said, I love physical modeling and mpe, so if the pitch bend thing gets fixed, I'd definitely take another look, and it's definitely a very pretty UI...

Gavinski · 1:25PM

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

waka_x · 1:33PM

@Gavinski is 100% right.
I can confirm that as an old MPE user.
( with Sensel Morph )

"Vibe" coders seem to trust more the Ai than the reality.
That's a hell-of-a BiAS... So - no purchase for me,

Fantastic · 2:34PM

@Gavinski said:
I tried to tell the dev that mpe was not working correctly in the AUv3. He insisted that all controllers would send the pitch bend info to the app and the app would know how much pitch bend was needed to get mpe working. Maybe some controllers send that info, but many don't. None I tried did. Therefore mpe pitch bend does not work for me at all normally when using the AUv3, the AUv3 lacks the settings needed to dial the range in. Mpe pitch bend works normally when using the inbuilt keyboard in standalone. Every mpe plugin needs settings where you adjust the pitch bend. Maybe if more people give the dev feedback that mpe is not working as expected, this will eventually get fixed.

MPE continues to be a minefield on iOS, as many devs think they understand what a good implementation looks like, but few do...

And a lot of them don't seem to actually use MPE hardware, which to me is bizarre. I realize most users wont be investing in such specialist controllers, and screen based MPE is part of the point of this ecosystem. But how you're going to dev MPE without either a Push 3 or a Linnstrument to try out, doesn't make sense to me, unless maybe that app development is barely a hobby.

Michael_R_Grant · 2:49PM

Yeah, it's a shame that MPE pitch bend isn't standardised. This kind of thing really needs to just 'work', sigh.

RedSkyLullaby · 4:21PM

@Robin2 said:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/anima-synthesizer/id6780281462

I’m always interested in physical modelling but can’t find much info on this beyond the developer’s website. Anyone have any experience of it? @RedSkyLullaby, you made some presets for it, yes?

Fantastic · 4:34PM

@RedSkyLullaby said:

@Robin2 said:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/anima-synthesizer/id6780281462

I’m always interested in physical modelling but can’t find much info on this beyond the developer’s website. Anyone have any experience of it? @RedSkyLullaby, you made some presets for it, yes?

Great vid, a lot to like, its very AAS. although doesn't show if any of the MPE settings can be modified, if midi mappings can be customized.

Fantastic · 4:46PM

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

We also may not have our information entirely straight. From https://polyphonicexpression.com/mpe-how-it-works

"The MPE specification also defines a specific Registered Parameter Number (RPN) to configure MPE mode. In practice, an MPE controller or synth uses RPN #6 to set up the channel zone (i.e. how many channels are reserved for that MPE zone). For example, sending an RPN 6 value of 10 on the master channel could configure an instrument to use channels 2–11 for notes (a 10-voice MPE zone).
Likewise, RPN #0 (Pitch Bend Range) is used to ensure the pitch bend sensitivity on each channel is set appropriately (e.g. ±48 semitones) on both the controller and synth.

I'm not sure when an RPN message is sent from an MPE controller though. Need to dig further.

oldsynthguy · 4:50PM

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:
I tried to tell the dev that mpe was not working correctly in the AUv3. He insisted that all controllers would send the pitch bend info to the app and the app would know how much pitch bend was needed to get mpe working. Maybe some controllers send that info, but many don't. None I tried did. Therefore mpe pitch bend does not work for me at all normally when using the AUv3, the AUv3 lacks the settings needed to dial the range in. Mpe pitch bend works normally when using the inbuilt keyboard in standalone. Every mpe plugin needs settings where you adjust the pitch bend. Maybe if more people give the dev feedback that mpe is not working as expected, this will eventually get fixed.

MPE continues to be a minefield on iOS, as many devs think they understand what a good implementation looks like, but few do...

And a lot of them don't seem to actually use MPE hardware, which to me is bizarre. I realize most users wont be investing in such specialist controllers, and screen based MPE is part of the point of this ecosystem. But how you're going to dev MPE without either a Push 3 or a Linnstrument to try out, doesn't make sense to me, unless maybe that app development is barely a hobby.

If this had MPE support for Push 3 I'd grab it, but it all seems a bit vague at the moment.

Fantastic · 4:58PM

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

We also may not have our information entirely straight. From https://polyphonicexpression.com/mpe-how-it-works

"The MPE specification also defines a specific Registered Parameter Number (RPN) to configure MPE mode. In practice, an MPE controller or synth uses RPN #6 to set up the channel zone (i.e. how many channels are reserved for that MPE zone). For example, sending an RPN 6 value of 10 on the master channel could configure an instrument to use channels 2–11 for notes (a 10-voice MPE zone).
Likewise, RPN #0 (Pitch Bend Range) is used to ensure the pitch bend sensitivity on each channel is set appropriately (e.g. ±48 semitones) on both the controller and synth.

I'm not sure when an RPN message is sent from an MPE controller though. Need to dig further.

From Linn's site, referring to the per-split button that sets up channel per note therefore MPE:

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/linnstrument-support-panel-settings

"Hidden Setting: set all settings for MPE synths
Hold this button for more than 1/2 second to instantly change other relevant Per-Split Settings for MPE compatibility. The button's light will turn light blue and these settings will be set as follows:

Left split: Main Ch 1, Per-Note Chs 2-8
Right split: Main Ch 16, Per-Note Chs 9-15
Bend Range: 48 (This uses the hidden setting "Any Bend Range". See "Bend Range" heading below.)
Timbre/Y: CC74
Loudness/Z: Chan Pres

Also,** LinnStrument will send a MIDI Remote Activation message (RPN 6), which will remotely set an MPE sound generator to MPE mode and set its channels and Bend Range to match LinnStrument's.** "

So, with the Linnstrument, configuring it as channel per note, meaning, doing the "set all settings for MPE synths" via the holding down of channel per note, sends the RPN 6 that includes the pitch bend range, which is what the dev was referring to.

I'll leave it to y'all to check out with your respective MPE devices how to get them to send an RPN6 or an RPN0, and would be glad to hear how you get on, short version: the dev wasn't wrong after all, Claude might not have hallucinated, and/or they might not have been relying on such anyway.
That said, would still be good to have the setting. And I still want to know can we do mapping

Gavinski · 5:02PM

@Fantastic said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

We also may not have our information entirely straight. From https://polyphonicexpression.com/mpe-how-it-works

"The MPE specification also defines a specific Registered Parameter Number (RPN) to configure MPE mode. In practice, an MPE controller or synth uses RPN #6 to set up the channel zone (i.e. how many channels are reserved for that MPE zone). For example, sending an RPN 6 value of 10 on the master channel could configure an instrument to use channels 2–11 for notes (a 10-voice MPE zone).
Likewise, RPN #0 (Pitch Bend Range) is used to ensure the pitch bend sensitivity on each channel is set appropriately (e.g. ±48 semitones) on both the controller and synth.

I'm not sure when an RPN message is sent from an MPE controller though. Need to dig further.

From Linn's site, referring to the per-split button that sets up channel per note therefore MPE:

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/linnstrument-support-panel-settings

"Hidden Setting: set all settings for MPE synths
Hold this button for more than 1/2 second to instantly change other relevant Per-Split Settings for MPE compatibility. The button's light will turn light blue and these settings will be set as follows:

Left split: Main Ch 1, Per-Note Chs 2-8
Right split: Main Ch 16, Per-Note Chs 9-15
Bend Range: 48 (This uses the hidden setting "Any Bend Range". See "Bend Range" heading below.)
Timbre/Y: CC74
Loudness/Z: Chan Pres

Also, LinnStrument will send a MIDI Remote Activation message (RPN 6), which will remotely set an MPE sound generator to MPE mode and set its channels and Bend Range to match LinnStrument's. "

So with the Linnstrument, configuring it as channel per note, meaning, turning on MPE, sends the RPN 6 that includes the pitch bend range, which is what the dev was referring to.

I'll leave it to y'all to check out with your respective MPE devices how to get them to send an RPN6 or an RPN0, and would be glad to hear how you get on, short version: the dev wasn't wrong after all, Claude might not have hallucinated, and/or they might not have been relying on such anyway.
That said, would still be good to have the setting. And I still want to know can we do mapping

As I mentioned, not all MPE controllers send this. With Salome, for example, either nothing is sent or the message is wrong, or there is some other problem in Anima, because the pitch bend messages from Salome don’t work, the pitch bend is barely noticeable. This is a fact, everything else is theoretical. The AUv3 should have a setting allowing the user to adjust pitch bend. It doesn’t. This means I can’t get it to work.

Fantastic · 5:09PM

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

We also may not have our information entirely straight. From https://polyphonicexpression.com/mpe-how-it-works

"The MPE specification also defines a specific Registered Parameter Number (RPN) to configure MPE mode. In practice, an MPE controller or synth uses RPN #6 to set up the channel zone (i.e. how many channels are reserved for that MPE zone). For example, sending an RPN 6 value of 10 on the master channel could configure an instrument to use channels 2–11 for notes (a 10-voice MPE zone).
Likewise, RPN #0 (Pitch Bend Range) is used to ensure the pitch bend sensitivity on each channel is set appropriately (e.g. ±48 semitones) on both the controller and synth.

I'm not sure when an RPN message is sent from an MPE controller though. Need to dig further.

From Linn's site, referring to the per-split button that sets up channel per note therefore MPE:

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/linnstrument-support-panel-settings

"Hidden Setting: set all settings for MPE synths
Hold this button for more than 1/2 second to instantly change other relevant Per-Split Settings for MPE compatibility. The button's light will turn light blue and these settings will be set as follows:

Left split: Main Ch 1, Per-Note Chs 2-8
Right split: Main Ch 16, Per-Note Chs 9-15
Bend Range: 48 (This uses the hidden setting "Any Bend Range". See "Bend Range" heading below.)
Timbre/Y: CC74
Loudness/Z: Chan Pres

Also, LinnStrument will send a MIDI Remote Activation message (RPN 6), which will remotely set an MPE sound generator to MPE mode and set its channels and Bend Range to match LinnStrument's. "

So with the Linnstrument, configuring it as channel per note, meaning, turning on MPE, sends the RPN 6 that includes the pitch bend range, which is what the dev was referring to.

I'll leave it to y'all to check out with your respective MPE devices how to get them to send an RPN6 or an RPN0, and would be glad to hear how you get on, short version: the dev wasn't wrong after all, Claude might not have hallucinated, and/or they might not have been relying on such anyway.
That said, would still be good to have the setting. And I still want to know can we do mapping

As I mentioned, not all MPE controllers send this. With Salome, for example, either nothing is sent or the message is wrong, because the pitch bend doesn’t work, the pitch bend is barely noticeable. This is a fact, everything else is theoretical. The facts are what matters lol

Yeah, that's fair enough. I wouldn't disagree, the response of "MPE controllers send this message" is not as helpful as an alternative might have been and as you say not reflective of the actual state of things. I wonder if there's a way you can spoof NRPN messages on Salome's behalf, though I suspect Bram would be entirely willing to correct this as well.

EDIT: Though I haven't yet bought it to try it to know if Linnstrument's NRPN messages correctly configure it. Redsky's video with the Roli Lightpad would suggest at least one MPE controller has been tested, so there's that

EDIT: but I also think, just let users be able to manually set it too.

Gavinski · 5:11PM

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

We also may not have our information entirely straight. From https://polyphonicexpression.com/mpe-how-it-works

"The MPE specification also defines a specific Registered Parameter Number (RPN) to configure MPE mode. In practice, an MPE controller or synth uses RPN #6 to set up the channel zone (i.e. how many channels are reserved for that MPE zone). For example, sending an RPN 6 value of 10 on the master channel could configure an instrument to use channels 2–11 for notes (a 10-voice MPE zone).
Likewise, RPN #0 (Pitch Bend Range) is used to ensure the pitch bend sensitivity on each channel is set appropriately (e.g. ±48 semitones) on both the controller and synth.

I'm not sure when an RPN message is sent from an MPE controller though. Need to dig further.

From Linn's site, referring to the per-split button that sets up channel per note therefore MPE:

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/linnstrument-support-panel-settings

"Hidden Setting: set all settings for MPE synths
Hold this button for more than 1/2 second to instantly change other relevant Per-Split Settings for MPE compatibility. The button's light will turn light blue and these settings will be set as follows:

Left split: Main Ch 1, Per-Note Chs 2-8
Right split: Main Ch 16, Per-Note Chs 9-15
Bend Range: 48 (This uses the hidden setting "Any Bend Range". See "Bend Range" heading below.)
Timbre/Y: CC74
Loudness/Z: Chan Pres

Also, LinnStrument will send a MIDI Remote Activation message (RPN 6), which will remotely set an MPE sound generator to MPE mode and set its channels and Bend Range to match LinnStrument's. "

So with the Linnstrument, configuring it as channel per note, meaning, turning on MPE, sends the RPN 6 that includes the pitch bend range, which is what the dev was referring to.

I'll leave it to y'all to check out with your respective MPE devices how to get them to send an RPN6 or an RPN0, and would be glad to hear how you get on, short version: the dev wasn't wrong after all, Claude might not have hallucinated, and/or they might not have been relying on such anyway.
That said, would still be good to have the setting. And I still want to know can we do mapping

As I mentioned, not all MPE controllers send this. With Salome, for example, either nothing is sent or the message is wrong, because the pitch bend doesn’t work, the pitch bend is barely noticeable. This is a fact, everything else is theoretical. The facts are what matters lol

Yeah, that's fair enough. I wouldn't disagree, the response of "MPE controllers send this message" is not as helpful as an alternative might have been and as you say not reflective of the actual state of things. I wonder if there's a way you can spoof NRPN messages on Salome's behalf, though I suspect Bram would be entirely willing to correct this as well.

I dunno, tbh I just don’t have time to go down this rabbithole, but maybe someone else would like to, I have other things I need to focus on. Good luck though if you decide to try and solve any of this hehe

Fantastic · 5:13PM

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

We also may not have our information entirely straight. From https://polyphonicexpression.com/mpe-how-it-works

"The MPE specification also defines a specific Registered Parameter Number (RPN) to configure MPE mode. In practice, an MPE controller or synth uses RPN #6 to set up the channel zone (i.e. how many channels are reserved for that MPE zone). For example, sending an RPN 6 value of 10 on the master channel could configure an instrument to use channels 2–11 for notes (a 10-voice MPE zone).
Likewise, RPN #0 (Pitch Bend Range) is used to ensure the pitch bend sensitivity on each channel is set appropriately (e.g. ±48 semitones) on both the controller and synth.

I'm not sure when an RPN message is sent from an MPE controller though. Need to dig further.

From Linn's site, referring to the per-split button that sets up channel per note therefore MPE:

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/linnstrument-support-panel-settings

"Hidden Setting: set all settings for MPE synths
Hold this button for more than 1/2 second to instantly change other relevant Per-Split Settings for MPE compatibility. The button's light will turn light blue and these settings will be set as follows:

Left split: Main Ch 1, Per-Note Chs 2-8
Right split: Main Ch 16, Per-Note Chs 9-15
Bend Range: 48 (This uses the hidden setting "Any Bend Range". See "Bend Range" heading below.)
Timbre/Y: CC74
Loudness/Z: Chan Pres

Also, LinnStrument will send a MIDI Remote Activation message (RPN 6), which will remotely set an MPE sound generator to MPE mode and set its channels and Bend Range to match LinnStrument's. "

So with the Linnstrument, configuring it as channel per note, meaning, turning on MPE, sends the RPN 6 that includes the pitch bend range, which is what the dev was referring to.

I'll leave it to y'all to check out with your respective MPE devices how to get them to send an RPN6 or an RPN0, and would be glad to hear how you get on, short version: the dev wasn't wrong after all, Claude might not have hallucinated, and/or they might not have been relying on such anyway.
That said, would still be good to have the setting. And I still want to know can we do mapping

As I mentioned, not all MPE controllers send this. With Salome, for example, either nothing is sent or the message is wrong, because the pitch bend doesn’t work, the pitch bend is barely noticeable. This is a fact, everything else is theoretical. The facts are what matters lol

Yeah, that's fair enough. I wouldn't disagree, the response of "MPE controllers send this message" is not as helpful as an alternative might have been and as you say not reflective of the actual state of things. I wonder if there's a way you can spoof NRPN messages on Salome's behalf, though I suspect Bram would be entirely willing to correct this as well.

I dunno, tbh I just don’t have time to go down this rabbithole, but maybe someone else would like to, I have other things I need to focus on. Good luck though if you decide to try and solve any of this hehe

I'm not buying it until someone confirms that there's some mapping affordance. If you can't map controls, its useless to me, even if the sound design is otherwise decent.

uncledave · 6:17PM

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

We also may not have our information entirely straight. From https://polyphonicexpression.com/mpe-how-it-works

"The MPE specification also defines a specific Registered Parameter Number (RPN) to configure MPE mode. In practice, an MPE controller or synth uses RPN #6 to set up the channel zone (i.e. how many channels are reserved for that MPE zone). For example, sending an RPN 6 value of 10 on the master channel could configure an instrument to use channels 2–11 for notes (a 10-voice MPE zone).
Likewise, RPN #0 (Pitch Bend Range) is used to ensure the pitch bend sensitivity on each channel is set appropriately (e.g. ±48 semitones) on both the controller and synth.

I'm not sure when an RPN message is sent from an MPE controller though. Need to dig further.

From Linn's site, referring to the per-split button that sets up channel per note therefore MPE:

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/linnstrument-support-panel-settings

"Hidden Setting: set all settings for MPE synths
Hold this button for more than 1/2 second to instantly change other relevant Per-Split Settings for MPE compatibility. The button's light will turn light blue and these settings will be set as follows:

Left split: Main Ch 1, Per-Note Chs 2-8
Right split: Main Ch 16, Per-Note Chs 9-15
Bend Range: 48 (This uses the hidden setting "Any Bend Range". See "Bend Range" heading below.)
Timbre/Y: CC74
Loudness/Z: Chan Pres

Also, LinnStrument will send a MIDI Remote Activation message (RPN 6), which will remotely set an MPE sound generator to MPE mode and set its channels and Bend Range to match LinnStrument's. "

So with the Linnstrument, configuring it as channel per note, meaning, turning on MPE, sends the RPN 6 that includes the pitch bend range, which is what the dev was referring to.

I'll leave it to y'all to check out with your respective MPE devices how to get them to send an RPN6 or an RPN0, and would be glad to hear how you get on, short version: the dev wasn't wrong after all, Claude might not have hallucinated, and/or they might not have been relying on such anyway.
That said, would still be good to have the setting. And I still want to know can we do mapping

As I mentioned, not all MPE controllers send this. With Salome, for example, either nothing is sent or the message is wrong, because the pitch bend doesn’t work, the pitch bend is barely noticeable. This is a fact, everything else is theoretical. The facts are what matters lol

Yeah, that's fair enough. I wouldn't disagree, the response of "MPE controllers send this message" is not as helpful as an alternative might have been and as you say not reflective of the actual state of things. I wonder if there's a way you can spoof NRPN messages on Salome's behalf, though I suspect Bram would be entirely willing to correct this as well.

I dunno, tbh I just don’t have time to go down this rabbithole, but maybe someone else would like to, I have other things I need to focus on. Good luck though if you decide to try and solve any of this hehe

Hi. You could try this StreamByter script to send the MPE configuration messages to the synth. It implements what the MPE standard dictates (for the "Low" split), and what I've seen sent by Animoog. I have confirmed that it sends the required messages, but cannot fully test it since I have no MPE controller.

#MPEConfig

# Sends configuration messages for the "Low" MPE channel.
# Load StreamByter and route its output to the synth app.
# Adjust the parameters and hit Send.
# Note that values must match those of the controller.
# Assign zero channels to turn MPE OFF.

# Load StreamByter in a MIDI slot. Paste this in and Install Rules.
# You can Save it for later reuse (hamburger menu in lower right). 
# Tap the magnifier to see the actual input and output messages. 
# Tap the "globe" icon in lower right to switch between controls 
# and edit screen.

If load
Set Name mpecon

# Screen Controllers ———————————————————————————
Alias Q0 theNumbChans
Alias Q1 theMasterBend
Alias Q2 theNotesBend
Alias Q3 theSend
Alias 3 indSend
Set Q0 Numb_Chans 0 $15
Set Q1 Master_Bend 2 $48
Set Q2 Notes_Bend 2 $48
Set Q3 Send +B

Set Q4 +H
Set Q5 +H
Set Q6 +H
Set Q7 +H

# Initial values for sliders. Actual values saved in any preset.
Ass Q0 = $15 2 $48 0   0 0 0 0 +P

Set Sliderdisplay 1
# End Screen Controllers —————————————————————————

# note that the internal channel number is 0..F, not 1..$16.

# send RPN pNumb on pChan with pValue
Sub SendRPN pChan pNumb pValue
   # select the RPN
   mat I50 = B0 + pChan
   send I50 64 pNumb
   send I50 65 0
   # send the data value
   send I50 06 pValue
   # deselect
   send I50 64 7F
   send I50 65 7F
End

# send pMasterBend on ch0, pNotesBend on the note chs.
Sub SendBendRangeLow pNumb pMasterBend pNotesBend
   ass I20 = 0
   ass I21 = pMasterBend
   while I20 <= pNumb
      SendRPN I20 00 I21      # bend range is RPN 00
      ass I21 = pNotesBend
      mat I20 = I20 + 1
   end
End

Sub SendInitialization pNumb pMasterBend pNotesBend
   Ass I10 = 0      # channel for the low band
   # RPN 6 enables MPE for nn channels.
   SendRPN I10 6 pNumb
   if pNumb > 0
      SendBendRangeLow pNumb pMasterBend pNotesBend
   end 
End

End # Initialization ———————————————————————————

If M0 == F0 7D 01       # handle system events
   if M3 == indSend
      SendInitialization theNumbChans theMasterBend theNotesBend
   end
End

Fantastic · 6:37PM

@uncledave said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:

@Fantastic said:

@Gavinski said:

@Fantastic said:
I've never seen any other synth presume to get pitch bend range right and so not allow it to be set.

About this, yes, 100%. I suspect that Claude is giving false info on that point to devs. Because another dev who uses AI extensively said exactly the same to me recently. But yeah, I've never ever previously seen any mpe apps that don't allow you to set the pitch bend range, it's needed. It's certainly needed for Salome, which I've generally been using recently, but in the past when I used a Roli Seaboard with various apps, it was also needed...

We also may not have our information entirely straight. From https://polyphonicexpression.com/mpe-how-it-works

"The MPE specification also defines a specific Registered Parameter Number (RPN) to configure MPE mode. In practice, an MPE controller or synth uses RPN #6 to set up the channel zone (i.e. how many channels are reserved for that MPE zone). For example, sending an RPN 6 value of 10 on the master channel could configure an instrument to use channels 2–11 for notes (a 10-voice MPE zone).
Likewise, RPN #0 (Pitch Bend Range) is used to ensure the pitch bend sensitivity on each channel is set appropriately (e.g. ±48 semitones) on both the controller and synth.

I'm not sure when an RPN message is sent from an MPE controller though. Need to dig further.

From Linn's site, referring to the per-split button that sets up channel per note therefore MPE:

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support/linnstrument-support-panel-settings

"Hidden Setting: set all settings for MPE synths
Hold this button for more than 1/2 second to instantly change other relevant Per-Split Settings for MPE compatibility. The button's light will turn light blue and these settings will be set as follows:

Left split: Main Ch 1, Per-Note Chs 2-8
Right split: Main Ch 16, Per-Note Chs 9-15
Bend Range: 48 (This uses the hidden setting "Any Bend Range". See "Bend Range" heading below.)
Timbre/Y: CC74
Loudness/Z: Chan Pres

Also, LinnStrument will send a MIDI Remote Activation message (RPN 6), which will remotely set an MPE sound generator to MPE mode and set its channels and Bend Range to match LinnStrument's. "

So with the Linnstrument, configuring it as channel per note, meaning, turning on MPE, sends the RPN 6 that includes the pitch bend range, which is what the dev was referring to.

I'll leave it to y'all to check out with your respective MPE devices how to get them to send an RPN6 or an RPN0, and would be glad to hear how you get on, short version: the dev wasn't wrong after all, Claude might not have hallucinated, and/or they might not have been relying on such anyway.
That said, would still be good to have the setting. And I still want to know can we do mapping

As I mentioned, not all MPE controllers send this. With Salome, for example, either nothing is sent or the message is wrong, because the pitch bend doesn’t work, the pitch bend is barely noticeable. This is a fact, everything else is theoretical. The facts are what matters lol

Yeah, that's fair enough. I wouldn't disagree, the response of "MPE controllers send this message" is not as helpful as an alternative might have been and as you say not reflective of the actual state of things. I wonder if there's a way you can spoof NRPN messages on Salome's behalf, though I suspect Bram would be entirely willing to correct this as well.

I dunno, tbh I just don’t have time to go down this rabbithole, but maybe someone else would like to, I have other things I need to focus on. Good luck though if you decide to try and solve any of this hehe

Hi. You could try this StreamByter script to send the MPE configuration messages to the synth. It implements what the MPE standard dictates (for the "Low" split), and what I've seen sent by Animoog. I have confirmed that it sends the required messages, but cannot fully test it since I have no MPE controller.
#MPEConfig

# Sends configuration messages for the "Low" MPE channel.
# Load StreamByter and route its output to the synth app.
# Adjust the parameters and hit Send.
# Note that values must match those of the controller.
# Assign zero channels to turn MPE OFF.

# Load StreamByter in a MIDI slot. Paste this in and Install Rules.
# You can Save it for later reuse (hamburger menu in lower right). 
# Tap the magnifier to see the actual input and output messages. 
# Tap the "globe" icon in lower right to switch between controls 
# and edit screen.

If load
Set Name mpecon

# Screen Controllers ———————————————————————————
Alias Q0 theNumbChans
Alias Q1 theMasterBend
Alias Q2 theNotesBend
Alias Q3 theSend
Alias 3 indSend
Set Q0 Numb_Chans 0 $15
Set Q1 Master_Bend 2 $48
Set Q2 Notes_Bend 2 $48
Set Q3 Send +B

Set Q4 +H
Set Q5 +H
Set Q6 +H
Set Q7 +H

# Initial values for sliders. Actual values saved in any preset.
Ass Q0 = $15 2 $48 0   0 0 0 0 +P

Set Sliderdisplay 1
# End Screen Controllers —————————————————————————

# note that the internal channel number is 0..F, not 1..$16.

# send RPN pNumb on pChan with pValue
Sub SendRPN pChan pNumb pValue
   # select the RPN
   mat I50 = B0 + pChan
   send I50 64 pNumb
   send I50 65 0
   # send the data value
   send I50 06 pValue
   # deselect
   send I50 64 7F
   send I50 65 7F
End

# send pMasterBend on ch0, pNotesBend on the note chs.
Sub SendBendRangeLow pNumb pMasterBend pNotesBend
   ass I20 = 0
   ass I21 = pMasterBend
   while I20 <= pNumb
      SendRPN I20 00 I21      # bend range is RPN 00
      ass I21 = pNotesBend
      mat I20 = I20 + 1
   end
End

Sub SendInitialization pNumb pMasterBend pNotesBend
   Ass I10 = 0      # channel for the low band
   # RPN 6 enables MPE for nn channels.
   SendRPN I10 6 pNumb
   if pNumb > 0
      SendBendRangeLow pNumb pMasterBend pNotesBend
   end 
End

End # Initialization ———————————————————————————

If M0 == F0 7D 01     # handle system events
   if M3 == indSend
      SendInitialization theNumbChans theMasterBend theNotesBend
   end
End

that's brilliant, i will at some point try that myself as well, with some other synth, as its a good to have / good to know, though I think gav is elsewhere doing other things for now

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