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Sampling from a Volca keys

Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000
in General App Discussion

Am thinking of sampling a few different 'patches' from my Volca keys so I can use it in actual tracks.

Whenever I break it out I love the way it sounds. But it's a bit if a hassle to get it all set up and running.

So the plan is to sequence a couple of octaves, record, and then chop into separate samples and put into Bilbao in Gadget. (Presumably it's best to record every note and not pitch the sample up and down since that will effect its length?)

However - ideally I'd like to hear the fabulous modulations on the tones in my final track. Not having every note sound exactly the same.

Any tips on how to best do this?

I know that the Volca uses proper analogue to produce its core tone. And then a digital filter. So I'm thinking its best to open the filter up completely and then I can apply Gadget's filter on afterwards in my track.

In terms of slight pitch variations (a bit of pitch wobble and imperfection) - it would be possible to introduce them with the pitch knob for each sample in Bilbao I guess - but that would be pretty fiddly to achieve so I think I'll apply that on the Volca (which will probably sound more authentic).

Again - I could go for a long release on all the sampled note and then adjust the release down to varying amounts in Bilbao. But not sure if this would sound weird and inauthentic.

It's a bit of a pity that Gadget doesn't have a 'proper' sampler as a gadget. But Bilboa is just about workable.

(Side question - when BeatMaker2 puts a sample across it's keyboard does it time stretch the sample too or do you get artificially long or short sounds as it moves the pitch away from the original sample?)

Anyway - any thoughts or advice much appreciated.

Comments

  • brambosbrambos

    The Keys' filter is actually analog as well. It's the old Korg 700 vcf circuitry.

  • u0421793u0421793

    If bilbao could do velocity sensitive multisample play out, this might be useful: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/965440-how-program-good-poly-synths-multisampling-monos.html

  • Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000

    @brambos said:
    The Keys' filter is actually analog as well. It's the old Korg 700 vcf circuitry.

    Really? That's interesting. Some of the Volca is 'digital' though isn't it? Maybe I'm thinking of the delay.

  • Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000
    edited December 2016

    @u0421793 said:
    If bilbao could do velocity sensitive multisample play out, this might be useful: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/965440-how-program-good-poly-synths-multisampling-monos.html

    Thanks.

    Sadly Bilbao is pretty basic and doesn't do multisample.

    But I did find this post on your link (pasted below) pretty useful for ideas and tips. I could modulate (very slightly and randomly) the fine pitch of each sample by pointing MidiLFOs at the pitch knob of each sample in Bilbao. Time consuming but possible.

    I'm thinking some other modulating insert effect like a phaser or a maybe distortion lightly varied over time would also help get the sound to be more organic too.

    And then as I say I want to use Gadget's filter on top.

    I have a feeling that Nano Studio or BM2 would handle this all a whole lot better.

    But it's worth a try in Gadget I think.

    /////////

    himalaya

    5

    8th November 2014
    My Studio
    Quote:
    What is your approach to programming poly synths and multisample patches?

    Thanks!
    The key to successful sampled-poly synth patch is the way random modulation is used.

    1. modulate fine pitch with a 'random unipolar' source. So assign the fine pitch parameter of samples loaded in oscilaltor one to a positive value and do the same for samples in the second oscillator but this time set the range to a negative value.

    Result = every key press will create a random detuning which will help to create an organic, alive, and smooth sound.

    This can be further extended and if the sampler allows for 'via' or 'aux' entries in the mod matrix, then we could set this random motion to keyrange.
    It would go something like this:

    Random+ via key range to fine pitch - positive mod on osc 1
    Random+ via key range to fine pitch - negative mod on osc 2

    1. Modulate phase of at least one sampled osc, perhaps by using the random source, or a mono LFO with a slow rate.

    2. modulate the master fine pitch with a S&H LFO running at a slow rate.

    3. Modulate all fine pitch parameters on all samples/oscillators with slow running S&H LFOs, this is in addition to point 1 above. Care is needed as not to detune the pitch too much.

    4. If you are not interested in preserving the original sampled tone, its filter response, then modulating the filter in the sampler will also help you to make the final sound come to life better. Even gentle filter mod assigned to different destinations will help, although sources like 'velocity' will reduce the vintage vibe, if vintage vibe is what you're after.

    5. If the sampler has good sounding drive/tube type effects, especially filter drive, then I'd try modulating these very, very gently either with note-on sources or LFOs. This is just to add very subtle sonic interest. But the modulation needs to be set with care, otherwise the effect can be distracting.

    6. A trick inspired by the Oberheim OBX: assign a flip-flop source to pan so that with each new note the sound will be panned in the stereo filed. This is great for poly synth chords.

    Good luck!

  • WillWill

    Yeah, in Eden land I'd sample a long clean note with an open filter and then use the Eden controls to re add the movement. But even then, there's something about the mojo of the interaction of the Keys' controls that I think would be hard to recreate with any strategy. And, just for me, I'm not sure the raw OSC of the keys is particularly special. I've never sampled it but I think I'd be more likely to sample phrases than try to recreate it.

  • Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000
    edited December 2016

    @syrupcore said:
    Yeah, in Eden land I'd sample a long clean note with an open filter and then use the Eden controls to re add the movement. But even then, there's something about the mojo of the interaction of the Keys' controls that I think would be hard to recreate with any strategy. And, just for me, I'm not sure the raw OSC of the keys is particularly special. I've never sampled it but I think I'd be more likely to sample phrases than try to recreate it.

    Thanks.

    Well here's my first test. I'm quite pleased with it. I do think it sounds different to what normally comes out of Gadget. But maybe I'm deluding myself :).

    Abu Dhabi is the way to go. Definitely. It's much easier to get the sample in and it's easy to change the attack and the delay on the samples as a group (as I'm doing in this track). Also the arp and the repeat are really useful (again used a bit in this track).

    Also the plus and minus buttons on pitch allow you to wobble the pitch on each sample by 10 cents (again, am doing this in this track) which is just the right about to give it that organic feel.

    Reverb, LPF and some delay at the end all added and modulated in Gadget.

    What do we think? Could it be coming out of the Volca live? (Rather than just being a few single notes sampled into Abu?)

  • brambosbrambos
    edited December 2016

    That sounds really good, but would that also work with sounds using the ringmod-modes of the Keys?

  • Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000

    @brambos said:
    That sounds really good, but would that also work with sounds using the ringmod-modes of the Keys?

    Yeah, why not.

    This time I just sampled the pure saw wave unfiltered and unadulterated.

    But I don't see why I couldn't sample some more interesting oscillator tones using the other modes, the detune, the LFO maybe - etc.

    Some gritty bass.

    It was really quick actually and I just used my iPhone. BM2 sequencing 16 evenly spaced notes at 50bpm recorded back into AUM on the same iPhone - producing a sub 10 sec file which I threw into Abu.

  • Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    But I don't see why I couldn't sample some more interesting oscillator tones using the other modes, the detune, the LFO maybe - etc.

    Some gritty bass.

    And then move on to trying to tune the kids toys to an A :)

  • Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000

    Volca keys 'patch' in Abu

  • u0421793u0421793

    Of that 10 seconds, you could have some straight wide-open wave, but also some of it representing a filter sweep down and some filter sweep up. Obviously you wouldn't have the opportunity of a wide variety of timings, just the specific ones you're going to end up with in that specific song.

    If it were a sampler that could handle multisamples, not only would you have the opportunity of potentially a different sample per note, but also a different sample per velocity (well, range of velocities) so that you could for example have a hard press representing a filter sweep open-to-closed (awww) a medium press with no filter sweep (aaaa) and a low-pressure press representing a filter sweep closed to open (wah) and given as much time and tedium as you'd want to invest in your sampling, as many intermediate steps as you can tolerate (and that, for each note). But then, given the huge amount of time this tends to take, you inevitably start wondering.

  • brambosbrambos

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @brambos said:
    That sounds really good, but would that also work with sounds using the ringmod-modes of the Keys?

    Yeah, why not.

    I think the ring modulation works relative to the root note, so the effect would be different for each note you play. That will take a lot of samples to get right. I'd have to try it though, iirc they did something special with the ring modulation circuit on the Keys. It's in fact my favorite oscillator mode because it really stands out compared to other analog synths.

  • Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000

    @brambos said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @brambos said:
    That sounds really good, but would that also work with sounds using the ringmod-modes of the Keys?

    Yeah, why not.

    I think the ring modulation works relative to the root note, so the effect would be different for each note you play. That will take a lot of samples to get right. I'd have to try it though, iirc they did something special with the ring modulation circuit on the Keys. It's in fact my favorite oscillator mode because it really stands out compared to other analog synths.

    I might need to read up on ring modulation to be honest. I'm not actually sure what it is, as in what it's actually doing. That would probably be a good place for me to start :).

  • u0421793u0421793

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @brambos said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @brambos said:
    That sounds really good, but would that also work with sounds using the ringmod-modes of the Keys?

    Yeah, why not.

    I think the ring modulation works relative to the root note, so the effect would be different for each note you play. That will take a lot of samples to get right. I'd have to try it though, iirc they did something special with the ring modulation circuit on the Keys. It's in fact my favorite oscillator mode because it really stands out compared to other analog synths.

    I might need to read up on ring modulation to be honest. I'm not actually sure what it is, as in what it's actually doing. That would probably be a good place for me to start :).

    There's two main implementations of ring modulation. Originally, the older dustier synths used an analogue circuit for amplitude modulation, like an analogue multiplier (where input x amplitude modulates input y, while also, input y amplitude modulates input x) and the result is frequency x - frequency y, and also frequency x + frequency y (with varying degrees of breakthrough of the originals depending on implementation). This allows different waveforms to be input (including voice, if you want to make a Dalek).

    The other implementation assumes you're only ever dealing with squarewaves (or at least, digital high/low transitions). For this, an exclusive-or gate arrangement is sufficient (and produces the equivalent result as the previous paragraphs arrangement, if you were to only ever feed it with square waves). This is what we see in the Korg MS synths, and the Arp Odyssey (but not the 2600, which used a proper balanced analogue multiplier arrangement), as the MS20 and Odyssey ring modulator normalised patching only comes from the pulse/square wave outputs of the two VCOs.

  • Matt_Fletcher_2000Matt_Fletcher_2000

    @u0421793 said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @brambos said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @brambos said:
    That sounds really good, but would that also work with sounds using the ringmod-modes of the Keys?

    Yeah, why not.

    I think the ring modulation works relative to the root note, so the effect would be different for each note you play. That will take a lot of samples to get right. I'd have to try it though, iirc they did something special with the ring modulation circuit on the Keys. It's in fact my favorite oscillator mode because it really stands out compared to other analog synths.

    I might need to read up on ring modulation to be honest. I'm not actually sure what it is, as in what it's actually doing. That would probably be a good place for me to start :).

    There's two main implementations of ring modulation. Originally, the older dustier synths used an analogue circuit for amplitude modulation, like an analogue multiplier (where input x amplitude modulates input y, while also, input y amplitude modulates input x) and the result is frequency x - frequency y, and also frequency x + frequency y (with varying degrees of breakthrough of the originals depending on implementation). This allows different waveforms to be input (including voice, if you want to make a Dalek).

    The other implementation assumes you're only ever dealing with squarewaves (or at least, digital high/low transitions). For this, an exclusive-or gate arrangement is sufficient (and produces the equivalent result as the previous paragraphs arrangement, if you were to only ever feed it with square waves). This is what we see in the Korg MS synths, and the Arp Odyssey (but not the 2600, which used a proper balanced analogue multiplier arrangement), as the MS20 and Odyssey ring modulator normalised patching only comes from the pulse/square wave outputs of the two VCOs.

    Thanks. So at the end of the day you end up with what? A variation on a square wave? (Like a pulse wave?). Or something else?

  • u0421793u0421793

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @u0421793 said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @brambos said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @brambos said:
    That sounds really good, but would that also work with sounds using the ringmod-modes of the Keys?

    Yeah, why not.

    I think the ring modulation works relative to the root note, so the effect would be different for each note you play. That will take a lot of samples to get right. I'd have to try it though, iirc they did something special with the ring modulation circuit on the Keys. It's in fact my favorite oscillator mode because it really stands out compared to other analog synths.

    I might need to read up on ring modulation to be honest. I'm not actually sure what it is, as in what it's actually doing. That would probably be a good place for me to start :).

    There's two main implementations of ring modulation. Originally, the older dustier synths used an analogue circuit for amplitude modulation, like an analogue multiplier (where input x amplitude modulates input y, while also, input y amplitude modulates input x) and the result is frequency x - frequency y, and also frequency x + frequency y (with varying degrees of breakthrough of the originals depending on implementation). This allows different waveforms to be input (including voice, if you want to make a Dalek).

    The other implementation assumes you're only ever dealing with squarewaves (or at least, digital high/low transitions). For this, an exclusive-or gate arrangement is sufficient (and produces the equivalent result as the previous paragraphs arrangement, if you were to only ever feed it with square waves). This is what we see in the Korg MS synths, and the Arp Odyssey (but not the 2600, which used a proper balanced analogue multiplier arrangement), as the MS20 and Odyssey ring modulator normalised patching only comes from the pulse/square wave outputs of the two VCOs.

    Thanks. So at the end of the day you end up with what? A variation on a square wave? (Like a pulse wave?). Or something else?

    In that case, two frequencies of square wave added together, where one of the frequencies present is frequency X-Y, and the other frequency is frequency X+Y. A lot like a simultaneous equation, really.

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