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Comments
@espiegel123 I've found this thread to be very interesting and when I finally have the time I want to figure out the recording of stereo IRs - very cool stuff. Thanks for taking the time
@rs2000 : good ear! You caught a problem in the way that the AUM project was setup. I need to re-do the setup.
I'm sure that with stereo sound recordings that have a clear stereo image, adding true stereo IR reverberation will lead to authentic results, getting close to a live recording at the same venue (if done right, i.e. if the speakers used for recording the IRs have been placed like the sound sources at that venue).
To be honest, I don't need that in my music. It would sure be nice to have that option but common mono-to-stereo IRs combined with stereo width control like in Convolutor PE already work great for me - and if I really need it then I can use two separate convolutor instances with the respective IRs.
The only current difficulty is the CPU limitation in Convolutor PE when using multiple instances.
Sorry. I thought you were using the "Altispace" app which has the "M5000 - Taj Mahal" IR but I see it's only a 3.8 second recording. Your original post shows your process involves a Mac and Altiverb 6 and "Gol Gumbaz" which is also a domed ceiling mausoleum in India. Looking at the specs, the Taj Mahal seem to be taller (73 meters vs 51 meters).
Reading comprehension and memory are both in decline.
UPDATE: And impulsivity is staying at typical levels:
@McD Hahahah!
I think I finally got things sussed out for correctly doing stereo-stereo IRs on the iPad.
This example has two renderings of a flute and gong piece that I put together to explore reverbs with long tails. There is a lot of dynamic range. So, don't listen too loud. The flute and gong were hard panned to opposite sites. Both were done on the iPad with different convolution reverb plugins. The IRs are not the same.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hb476alnhk0ej4y/Flute Gong Normalized.zip?dl=0
The following example is a Volt synth (no effects, hard-panned left) processed through two renditions of the AltiVerb's Gol Gumbaz stereo-to-stereo IR. One was done with Altiverb itself. The other was done with Rooms AU using two instances: one for the left input and the other for the right (silent in this case) input. These are full wet and normalized to eliminate the influence of loudness.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nhq238y0hulvp0c/2020_01_07_Volt_Verb.zip?dl=0
Rooms! just got an update with some mono stereo changes - let us know what you think @espiegel123
And our boy Jens dropped an update
@Gravitas
For your perusal:
Bit of a thread on wideners phase cancellation multi-band stereo imaging...
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/36404/stereo-width-control-by-mani-consulting-limited-company
@audiblevideo
I've read that thread.
I saw it when it came up as I was looking for stereo tools at the time.
I have both Haaze and Haaze 2, the aforementioned stereo tool
from Jens, the free Wider from Infected Mushroom, crazy name but cool Auv3,
combined with the stereo section of Audio Mastering by Igor Vasiliev
which I wish was Auv3 also Kosmonaut has a Haas effect inbuilt as
well as delays and ambience.
The stereo section of Audio Mastering is three band not four band
so inevitably I will get the one from Mani Consultants but what
I have is more than sufficient for now.
Thank you for the suggestion.
But do you have Virtual Room Pro???
@mjcouche
Nope.
Do you have it and does it do what you need it to do?
@espiegel123
Listening environment is different from the first examples you uploaded.
Currently listening on headphones rather than my main studio monitors.
For the Voltz synth.
There is no discernible difference between
the QZ and BZ files at first and second listen.
Impressive translation from Altiverb to Rooms.
For the flute, gong recordings.
D Flute gong feels as if it has been hard panned left and right.
It has plenty of depth and width but the reverb doesn't spill over
onto the opposite side.
I.e the gong reverb isn't present as much on the left and the reverse for the flute.
As in the instruments sound as if reverb has been applied.
F Flute gong feels dense and has a more realistic sound.
The instruments immediately sound more centered
and sound as if they are in the same space rather than
processed left and right to my ears.
I much prefer F to D though both would have their uses in a mix.
Yes and yes. It is pretty nice to place things in the x, y, z plane. I don't know if it is specifically a widener though I can see it being used for that. I like the interface a lot and you can also change the position of the "listener," and all of these controls can be mapped I think as well.
Okay, I'm in the midst of a few things but I will keep this in mind.
I'm about to release all of my soundcloud tracks on Bandcamp
this year so these tools will come in handy as I do so as well as writing
new material using solely iOS.
Thanks for the recommendation.
@rs2000 : thoughts?
Awesome. Looking forward to it!
I'm not sure I got what you wanted to demonstrate with these files.
Flute+gong through Rooms sounds like a mono IR was used again, at least there's apparently only minimal stereo information in the IR.
Flute+gong through Convolutor PE sounds like (almost?) mono with L and R channels out of phase.
Volt BZ and QX sound much more like real stereo spaces.
In none of the demos I can hear anything that would indicate the use of true stereo IRs.
Dare to share your test session?
@rs2000
I like your style.
I'm looking forward to it, wishing you good luck and fun doing it!
PS: Now I know who your track "Saturday Night Sunday Morning" reminded me of: Keziah Jones!
Interesting that you mention Keziah Jones.
I used to be the house drummer for a improv session back in the 90's.
He used to be a regular there.
It was before he became the star he is now.
Thank you for the compliment.
Ha! Unbelievable.
Go ahead, you've both breathed the same creativity air! 😁
@rs2000
Yeah we did.
Seriously, at this time in my life the amount of people
I've played with is ridiculous even I find it hard to believe and I'm living it.
Anyways thanks for the reminder.
Do Bz and Qx sound the same two you? I'll share more thoughts and info later...will be curious to see if more people chime in before I do.
One thing worth mentioning (and this is probably why many stereo reverbs sum the inputs) is that in large symmetrical reverberant spaces , the difference in signal that reaches our right and left ears tends to converge.
If Bz and Qx sound the same then the set-up is correct. One of those was generated on the Mac applying AltiVerb directly to a stereo file using a stereo-to-stereo file. (In the first piano test there there was one file that was in mono.invertimg the phase of one channel and summing resulted in silence).
I can't legally share the AltiVerb IRs (or my derivatives) or I would.
@espiegel123
BZ and QX
On headphones yes.
I listened repeatedly to the files starting at
various different points to double check.
I couldn't tell the difference.
I also started the files at different points,
again I couldn't tell the difference.
Most probably someone else will but I couldn't.
Nice test.
Regarding sharing the IR files.
It's all good.
Yes they do.
Yes, that's what I think. I'm sure there's a significant difference between reverb used for contemporary jazz/pop/electronic music and choirs and orchestral ensembles, especially when sitting closer as a listener. This is probably where true stereo-to-stereo will be able to show its advantages. In most other cases, it seems to me that Convolutor's approach covers most reverberation needs quite well: Using the stereo width adjustment, you can seamlessly dial between either mono, separate left/right processing and "extreme stereo". This way, even a large choir or orchestral ensemble can have its stereo information untouched yet the IR response added to it if you need it.
At least in my case, as I see it today, that covers all of my reverberation needs.
If I had to list a number of "nice-to-haves", they'd rather be something like being able to choose from a number of IRs instantly and being able to control that plus all the convolutor properties via MIDI and AUv3 parameters.
No problem. Although I find licensing IRs rather funny - asking the owner of the venue the IR has been recorded in for permission would be the more honest way to handle it!
When I record a bootleg on a live concert of a well-known group, will I be able to claim intellectual property of my recording?
Since the consensus is that Bz and Qx sound close to identical, I think I feel comfortable in the method of creating IRs for my own use from the Altiverb IR seems correct. I will do one more test on my own comparing the rendering on the Mac from two different hosts just in case there was some bug in the host app I used to apply the IR in the first place.
If that holds up, I will spend some time going through the huge Altiverb library and be on the look out for IRs that have a more obvious stereo character. I didn't want to invest much time in that until I could confirm that this worked well and yielded a high-quality result.
The one example in the set from JAX Convolutor PE makes me wonder if I misunderstand some of its controls and how it works. I thought I had it on the setting that with that IR would yield the widest stereo image. Perhaps with Convolutor PE, a more natural sound is achieved by reducing the width rather than maxing it out. Anyway, for that example, the flute and gong sources were hard panned to opposite directions. I used the Universe PE preset with width at the maximum setting. As I think about it, it may be that with a source like this it sounds better with the width control set at around 10 o'clock. A quick test seems to confirm this.
FWIW, back in the day (many many moons ago) where I was really on top of things spending most of my time doing music and sound, I was mostly using convolution IRs to tie things together. We were mostly using non-IR type reverbs for individual instruments or sub-groups and using the IR on the master with a room sound (rather than a long reverb) to tie things together.
@rs2000 : re the IP/licensing of IRs. I think that if you think about IP differently, you will see that it isn't so different with reverbs. You don't necessarily pay royalties to the recording artist when you use their recording -- you pay royalties to the copyright holders and publishers. Depending on how the contracts were set up that might be the artist or a publishing company or some combination of them. In the case of IRs, AudioEase is generally the one that incurred the expenses in creating the IRs. In some cases, they had to pay money to the venue to do the sampling. AudioEase incurred the bulk of the expense -- and their IRs are really well done. So, it makes sense to me. In fact, at this point the main reason why someone spends money on Altiverb is because their library is so well done.
Btw, I am having fun using Rooms to do non-reverb convolution by using instruments and such as IRs. Great for drones and such. I'll post some examples in the coming days.
Intriguing.
Looking forward to the examples.
FWIW, using IRs this way is very similar to vocoding. I used to work on a sound design app that let you arbitrarily convolve sounds against each other. A lot of horror and sci-fi soundtracks featured liberal use of it. Apesoft's Sparkle does something along these lines I think.