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Comments
so far playing with stage , here are my thoughts/requests
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wrcfm38hjg1xrfu/Gainstage clip 6 with dub delay.wav?dl=0
For example I could not increase the gain here
cool
of course, will buy this in any case .. great sounding, very versatile, wide range of characters .. you did great job !
I haven’t dug into it too far yet but I was using on some sine wave stuff and the clean setting made it sound really nice. I did notice that if I export a track though it seems to mute the first bit of the audio like there’s a threshold that has to kick in or something but that’s only been in Twisted wave that I’ve tried it in
Played a bit. I really liked the sounds I could get. I also have AmpliTube with fender2. I like that but sometimes I find a weird plasticyness in there somewhere. I could imagine preferring gain stage over AmpliTube most of the time, though it does have some tricks I like.
Also cpu usage was very similar between the 2. I imagine I’ll get this when it’s released, having an au will be great. And I agree that having a tuner in there would be great, even as an iap
My favourite tone in the world, I don't think it should be too hard to match, it's a Les Paul through a Fender Twin:
I will release a plugin that exposes a bit more. But there actually isn’t much you need to expose to do these models. If you look at the flat spectrum presets toward the end of the amp types list, those are amps without preamp or speaker cabinet. Every amp setting in the app is one of those flat spectrum presets with a parametric eq before and after it. If you saw the videos I posted last month about how to model guitar amps using a parametric eq and a saturator then you already have everything you need to make all the amp types For yourself.
The only internal parameters I use that you do not have access to are the sag parameters in those flat spectrum amps. But since I already created flat spectrum presets with a wide range of sag settings, you are basically in the same position as me.
Initially I had planned to release an app with only flat spectrum amps and just let people use parametric eq to make their own preamps and speaker cabs, but when I started in on making some amp models that way I realised it was incredibly difficult. Early on it took me a whole week of full time work to set up the pre and post EQ for a single amp model. Now that I have more experience it still takes an average of four hours to make one good amp setup. I doubt many customers have time for that. But if you are interested, you already have all the tools you need.
Yes. If you don’t send me the dry tone I will use my own guitar as the dry input. But would prefer to use your dry sound because using other guitars will ensure that the app works well with a wider variety of inputs.
Any chance you could send me a dry recording of your les paul (or something similar) with the pickup switch in the same position as the video, connected straight to the ipad with no effects or plugins? I haven’t got any guitar that sounds similar to a les paul. If I match this tone using my guitar then it won’t sound like it should when you do plug the les paul in.
This is also nice!
Sure, I have a Les Paul, I'll record it dry this evening. However I don't know for sure which pickup is being used in that example, but I'll see if I can hunt down some live footage.
I doubt anything I’ll try to make will sound very good, but there’s some fun in tweaking. Thanks for putting the time in on making models that sound good!
Its difficult to make a preset that sounds good over a wide range of input gain settings. That’s why most amps have separate channels for clean, crunch, gain rather than just putting a big gain boost knob on the clean channel. If you send me an example of the tone you are looking for along with the dry recording of your guitar without any effects or plugins I will try to make an amp voicing with appropriate voicing for that amount of gain.
Yes. I’ll go over them all one last time before release. But I think all the ones marked with an asterisk (*) are already normalised. If any of those isnt coming out right, please let me know.
How is this different from the input and output gain knobs it already has? Or you want the range of those knobs increased so you get more gain?
We will redesign the post EQ a bit. It will include something like a presence knob.
Ok
Its reasonable. I’ll consider it when designing the changes to the equalizers
I think we will allow disabling the speaker cab. We will not have IAP or include a choice of other cab IRs. I continue to insist that cab IRs do nothing that cannot already be done with a Stereo decorrelator and a parametric EQ. That is the main reason why this app is an audio unit rather than standalone.
Some amp tones clean up well and others don’t. The amp tones that clean up well are the ones that sound harsh at high gain settings. I havent made any presets like that yet but if you have an example you can send, a dry recording of the unprocessed tone along with a link to examples of what you would like the tone yo sound like at high and low gain settings, I will do my best to match it.
I'm not familiar with an audio "decorrelator". Do we have available apps in the iTune Store that perform this audio function?
I'm good on the EQ step. I find your EQ to be excellent at a great price for these processing
functions. Your video re: Shaping Guitar tones helped me understand how to set the right
values for that app to make my AUM guitar rigs sound great. There are EQ and Saturator effects in AUM for anyone on a budget to get started modeling tones in A/B comparisons
with Audio files or using "Tube AU" or iTunes for source material.
For the A/B switch channels in AUM can be muted/unmuter and tied to a MIDI pedal like the BlueBoard.
I have a lot fo tuners and many work in AUM.
But "decorrelators"? How is that done?
We will also be buying your ears with this app. I imagine you also use some Audio analysis tools since you use iZotope's RX7 in your videos to show the inputs of many AUv3 products.
I'm sure there are a lot of great ears on the community end of the process so we should
have options to post EQ presets and AUM projects that implement A/B rigs, etc.
So, I think the "beta" is over for me. The remaining issues can be addressed in a roadmap
statement and delivered to us with updates.
Leaving the TestFlight open for another number of days would allow everyone here to get that "demo" done and purchase with assurance they are getting an App they truly need.
I find your efforts to educate the buyer refreshing. I listen to Guitar Amp modeler vendors and my head spins. They blow smoke and mirrors over the whole Lab effort to make their products. I think you're changed the way I view hardware. I'll be using these techniques on my MacBook and comparing to the Amp Sim's available there for impacts on latency.
Is the product as is currently delivering around 10 ms on average? I wonder what latency is the threshold for my guitar teacher? I showed him many IOS rigs in the past and he just says
"Too much latency for me". He's old school and uses quality analog amps exclusively.
Yes. I agree there is need for better AU3 tuners but I don’t think one should be included in gain stage. The tuner should be something separate.
The stereo to mono unit in gain stage is a decorrelator. We also use a decorrelator in our plugin called stereo modulator.
It is similar to the early reflections unit in a reverb: it is a randomised multi-tap delay that adds a large number of low-gain micro-delays, with different randomisation for the right and left channels. The purpose of it is to smear the phase randomly in the left and right channels. It also makes a slight echo that isn’t heard as an echo but rather as the resonant sound From inside the cab that you hear when you tap the speaker cone with your finger. The decorrelator and the EQ must work together to produce that sound.
The decorrelator in gain stage is combined with a three way crossover so that only the frequencies between 300 and 2000 Hz are affected. If you decorrelate the bass frequencies you loose bass response and if you decorrelate the high frequencies it can sound phasey and electronic.
The one in our stereo modulator plugin uses a two way crossover only so bass is not decorrelated but the treble is. Hence, that plugin sounds a bit phasey and electronic.
I am aware of at least one other plugin that uses a decorrelator. That is the stereo imager in Izotope Ozone.
Here is a technical article with sound examples that explains how a decorrelator works: https://www.audiolabs-erlangen.de/resources/2018-DAFx-VND
The A/B feature that @espiegel123 proposed is a major update. I think he is right about it being a good thing to add but it will significantly delay the release date if we do it. I’m still on the fence about whether or not to do that. I do not think we can add that later if we don’t do it in the initial release because making an update that changes the au parameters so drastically would mess up projects that people have already saved in thier DAWs.
I’ll do a video soon to show what controls I have access to inside the plugin that users don’t have. Its not much really. Most of the work is just using the tools in my earlier videos.
It is currently adding almost zero latency (~20 audio samples is much less than 1ms) on top of what iOS already has.
It’s interesting to note that you can significantly reduce your latency by running at 96 khz. A 128 sample buffer at 96 khz is the same length in ms as a 64 sample buffer at 48khz but 96khz with 128 buffer seems to click less and be more stable.
Also interesting is the fact that Gain stage internal oversampler operates more efficiently and works fine with lower oversampling rate when the input is 96khz, so in addition to lower latency, the plugin may actually use less CPU at the higher sample rate, although other parts of the iOS signal processing chain use a little more, you probably won’t significantly increase your cpu load when you run at higher sample rate.
Can you modify that app to decor relate treble too?
That's only available for PC/Mac right?
Then disclose that lack of a that feature in the app description and propoe that fact that
this is the 2nd Amp Sim in an AUv3 category and AU plugins can be switched between multiple Amp Models in the DAW. Forget adding that feature and let the buyer beware.
Starting with a free "Lite" version with a dozen tones and selling the "Pro" version with
100's of tones. I choose 100's to help you focus on making me more great sounds ASAP,
I don't thing the app worked for me in the $1 "AU Host" app... I'll check again. That would make a good "standalone" option for anyone that wants to avoid a DAW but just run a lean "Host".
There are some impressive Tones used by Guitar master Scott Henderson.
He discloses the hardware he uses Live and for Recording in this interview:
Scott has played with Chick Corea, Joe Zawinul, Jean Luc Ponty and his own group "Tribal Tech". He is obsessed with Tone.
He claims "Valhallah Plate" for $50 blows the Lexicon ($1500) away. His sounds are impressive and worthy of modeling in "Gain Stage" v1.x.
Ok was not aware
the idea is to have a plug and play setup
I have Ethos Overdrive with a zillion knobs and I kinda get lost sometimes
With current set up i may want input at 3 and output at 8-9 for some high gain non shrill lead sounds
then if I want a clean sound , I need to retweak all over
with a boost knob and a 3 way pre/post/bypass switch I can achieve this quickly ( kinda stacking one knob pedals)
Agreed ... even Neunaber Iconoclast "sort of" follows this philosophy
I was not suggesting IR's.in their simplest form just some readymade flavored speaker presets with just a presence knob ( instead of bass/mid treble) , as a crutch to bring forth the tones in your head
Our Stereo Modulator Decorrelates everything from 300 Hz up.
Personally, I like the one in gain stage better because it sounds more natural. I don’t have a feeling that I’m listening to an electronic effect when I use the gain stage mono to stereo switch. But when I use our stereo modulator effect, its more obvious that the stereo width is artificial and electronic.
I definitely don’t want the decorrelator in gain stage to work on the high frequencies. I set the crossover frequencies to give maximum width possible while still sounding natural if the high crossover went up any higher it would sound phasey and if it were any lower you wouldn’t get wide stereo.
Yes. Thats right.
I think we will do the AB thing from the start. Im getting other requests that would also be solved by having that option.
I am also a fan of valhalla DSP reverbs.
I will work on modelling a scot henderson tone. His reverb is more wet than the L room setting in gain stage, so you will need an external reverb to get a real scot henderson tone. I know the eos reverb plugin from audiodamage was also designed by sean castello of valhalla dsp and the new update has a new plate reverb. I wonder if that would sound like scot henderson’s valhalla plate reverb?
This is related to what @espiegel123 was saying about the need for an A/B switch. If we add that, you’ll be able to switch between any two setups.
We will add a switch to disable the speaker cab. You can then add your own either by using parametric EQ or running a convolver plugin.
Can you guesstimate how long it might take to implement the updates?
Would you consider selling the product sooner and committing to these features in updates?
Or will you just keep working through the Open FlightTest with updates and ship when the
important users signal you that's it's "done"?
For my needs it's done but updates will be great. The Vox AC and Kid C tones are nicely rendered.
Adding AUv3 and IAA FX before and after in AUM is not a problem for me... I find the benefits of AUM to be essential for using Bluetooth/USB Controllers for Parameter controls and Mixing purposes.
The Universal implementations for AUM and Gainstage are great. I build a Rig on the iPad and export the Project to my iPhones via AirDrop. Works great. Similar to the "PC Editor"
approach Fender (and many other hardware vendors) use with their Modeling Amps for
building complex presets as "User Presets".
OK, here's Jeff McErlain, an instructor with TrueFire, describing and performing examples of one of the most iconic guitar tones: Eric Clapton's "Beano" tone from John Mayall's Blues Breakers With Eric Clapton.
There's a lot of talking, but I think the talking is quite valuable in understanding how that tone is achieved.
If you need dry Les Paul clips from me, I can provide them—bridge, neck, and combined.
@Blue_Mangoo Re the the A/B Feature. An easy implementation could be the way Eventide is using the ribbon controller in all of their plugins. Have you seen/used it?
It's actually very intuitive to both setup and use through Midi. Their implementation has continuous control between the extreme values, but it can just as well be used as a A/B toggle.
Here is a pic of what I mean; can explain further details later on tonight
@Blue_Mangoo : It would be very helpful to have input and output level meters. It has taken me a little while to realize that when using an audio interface for the guitar, one sometimes has to opt for a low signal level to make sure that you don't get digital clipping in the interface itself (if you are someone that plays with a lot of dynamic range). This is a general issue with guitar apps that doesn't happen with hardware amps (even digital ones)
Anyway, with a visual of the the input and output levels, it would help one see whether they need to do some gain management of the incoming signal. And similarly, it would help one see what the output level is, too.
Btw, related to this, I think this is why I am finding dialing tones in easier with Magic Death Eye upstream than not. I need to try your compressor to see if it has the same impact. While MDE does have lovely coloration, it might turn out that in this use-case that it is the level management that is the key thing. (Unfortunately, I'll be away from my guitar most of the next five day and am not sure if I'll be able to test this in the meantime).
I'll just drop my YAGSD here:
It was created in my "Walking Studio" using the "Clean - American" Preset
and the TB Reverb "Shimmer - snk1" Preset.
Signal path:
Fender (Mex) Tele ($150 used)
iRig HD (mono audio interface) ($129
iPhone 5S 32GB (~$100 refurb at Walmart Online)
Apple CCK v2 ($40) *Lightning Power Port
USB Rechargeable Battery 10mAH's($18 on Amazon today)
OneOdio A70 Bluetooth Over Ear Headphones ($55) *they have a mini-plug audio out)
AUM app ($19)
Gain Stage app (free TestFlight today)
ToneBoosters Reverb ($7)
audio cables ($20-30 dependent on length)
Velco Patches ($10)
Guitar Strap $10-20
Total Cost under $600.00
Walk/Sit and Play/Practice with privacy.
Add Powered Speakers for Busking/Outdoor playing.
The OneOdio allows daisy-chaining headphones but that port could run to the PA/Amp and you get monitoring for OpenMic types of performances. Strap the Studio on and just play with just the cable out to the PA. Fast but still a complete Guitar Rig.
I really like the tones from Paul davids
Ill add it to my list
Hello @Blue_Mangoo do you plan to work on the metal tones?
I been playing for the last 30 minutes with pre compressor and pre and post eq. I can’t seem to get a thigh sound. It is very muddy and by itself not distorted enough.
I would like to have good metal tone, of course. But I don’t have a guitar appropriate for metal and I don’t listen to metal. So I am waiting and hoping that someone who loves metal will send me a dry recording of a guitar plugged straight into an ipad with no effects or plugins, along with a video link or other recording of an example of the tone they want to get from gain stage. I will adjust the amp settings until the dry recording they sent sounds like the tone in the video link, then I will save an amp type for that. I got one already, someone sent me an ola englund video. If you are interested in helping, please send me a recording and a link like that and I’ll do my best to get your tone into the app.
Yes i am interested. At what adresse could I send the recording?
[email protected]
@Blue_Mangoo You are onto something here :-)