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Ableton Link: How to Make It Work?

2

Comments

  • buskerbusker
    edited February 2016

    @lala said: ...
    if you are looking for the right buzzword that equivalents SMPTE it would be (something timeline based and) sample accurate

    There is also MTC (MIDI Time Code) which is an alternative to MIDI clock and song position pointer. It's what we use to use to sync MIDI hardware to tape by dumping a SMPTE signal on a track as reference, and then linking it with a convertor box.

  • WashboyWashboy
    edited February 2016

    @lala said:

    @u0421793 said:
    Is there an equivalent of SMPTE within an iPad, unconnected with midi and its clocks?

    SMPTE is just a timecode
    i think it thinks in frames as it was made to sync film & music ...
    so position 00.00.00.00 (? (you get what I mean)) is the start of the movie (the first frame) and so on

    IOS sends timestamps (now its 12 o clock beep) ...
    midi clock on iOS is made this way ... I did send you 24(?) ticks on those timestamps then you reorder the timestamps so they follow one after the other in correct order and then you start calculating the average - this ends up in the mess we all know for complex reasons ...

    if you are looking for the right buzzword that equivalents SMPTE it would be (something timeline based and) sample accurate

    Isn't MTC (MIDI Time Code) the equivalent of SMPTE (not to suggest that I know anything about the subject however ;))?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_timecode

    [Edit: Oops! @busker got in before me.]

  • HarroHarro

    Today I tested all my drum-apps in AUM to see how they synced (IAA or LINK) and started/stopped with AUM's play/pause-button. Here are the results:

    • DM1: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM, reacts on play/pause (!) and syncs very nice (via IAA, so a new tempo is only triggered after stop and play from within AUM) and shows the IAA-icon in its own UI, which is very nice.
    • Rock DM: loads from AUM and works out of the box: start/pause from AUM, sync a la DM1 and also shows AUM's IAA-icon in it own UI. Very good!
    • Funk Drummer: idem dito as Rock DM. Again: very good!
    • DrumJam: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM (I tried both as Instrument and as Generator) it didn't react to AUM's start/pause, nor (IAA) and selecting DrumJam's UI it crashed! No good.
    • Diode-108: Loads automatically in AUM, but turns 'striped red' after that; after a few reloads it stays in AUM. Diode-108 shows no IAA-icon or -toolbar and start/pause and sync don't work. Bad!
    • Attack: Loads like Diode-108 (because of the animated intro-screen, that takes a while?), shows the IAA-toolbar (with the AUM-icon), but does not play/pause nor sync from within AUM.
    • Elastic Drums (with LINK enabled!): Loads from AUM, shows the AUM-icon in it's own UI, but does not react on AUM's play/pause en seems to be freezed up (it's own play-button is disabled): very bad result!
    • Drum Perfect (I don't have Pro): works like DM1 (syncs via IAA and starts/pauses in AUM) and also loads from within AUM. Very Good!

    So for me the winners are: with LINK-sync: Patterning, and with IAA-sync: Drum Perfect, Rock DM, Funk Drummer en DM1.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited February 2016

    @Washboy said:

    Isn't MTC (MIDI Time Code) the equivalent of SMPTE (not to suggest that I know anything about the subject however ;))?

    it is
    but who wants to mess with MTC if you can get sample accurate these days? ...

    btw i never use midi start stop play pause (and spp) (well except from press start once?)
    link gives me all I need these days, here is our tempo would you like to join on the next "1" in the beat
    thats all I need :)

  • KorakiosKorakios

    @lala said:
    btw i never use midi start stop play pause (and spp) (well except from press start once?)
    link gives me all I need these days, here is our tempo would you like to join on the next "1" in the beat
    thats all I need :)

    But if you want to start 5 apps at the same time? Some of us still need a master (midi?) start/stop ...I don't know how AB sends the global start command but it saved me!

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited February 2016

    @Korakios said:

    @lala said:
    btw i never use midi start stop play pause (and spp) (well except from press start once?)
    link gives me all I need these days, here is our tempo would you like to join on the next "1" in the beat
    thats all I need :)

    But if you want to start 5 apps at the same time? Some of us still need a master (midi?) start/stop ...I don't know how AB sends the global start command but it saved me!

    hehe :)
    thats the well except from press start once part

  • buskerbusker

    @Harro said:
    Today I tested all my drum-apps in AUM to see how they synced (IAA or LINK) and started/stopped with AUM's play/pause-button. Here are the results:

    • DM1: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM, reacts on play/pause (!) and syncs very nice (via IAA, so a new tempo is only triggered after stop and play from within AUM) and shows the IAA-icon in its own UI, which is very nice.
    • Rock DM: loads from AUM and works out of the box: start/pause from AUM, sync a la DM1 and also shows AUM's IAA-icon in it own UI. Very good!
    • Funk Drummer: idem dito as Rock DM. Again: very good!
    • DrumJam: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM (I tried both as Instrument and as Generator) it didn't react to AUM's start/pause, nor (IAA) and selecting DrumJam's UI it crashed! No good.
    • Diode-108: Loads automatically in AUM, but turns 'striped red' after that; after a few reloads it stays in AUM. Diode-108 shows no IAA-icon or -toolbar and start/pause and sync don't work. Bad!
    • Attack: Loads like Diode-108 (because of the animated intro-screen, that takes a while?), shows the IAA-toolbar (with the AUM-icon), but does not play/pause nor sync from within AUM.
    • Elastic Drums (with LINK enabled!): Loads from AUM, shows the AUM-icon in it's own UI, but does not react on AUM's play/pause en seems to be freezed up (it's own play-button is disabled): very bad result!
    • Drum Perfect (I don't have Pro): works like DM1 (syncs via IAA and starts/pauses in AUM) and also loads from within AUM. Very Good!

    So for me the winners are: with LINK-sync: Patterning, and with IAA-sync: Drum Perfect, Rock DM, Funk Drummer en DM1.

    Thanks for posting your detailed testing @Harro, that is quite helpful.

    One thing though, you mention Patterning as a winner, but I don't see any info about it in your post?

  • JohnnyGoodyearJohnnyGoodyear

    @Harro said:
    Today I tested all my drum-apps in AUM to see how they synced (IAA or LINK) and started/stopped with AUM's play/pause-button. Here are the results:

    • DM1: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM, reacts on play/pause (!) and syncs very nice (via IAA, so a new tempo is only triggered after stop and play from within AUM) and shows the IAA-icon in its own UI, which is very nice.
    • Rock DM: loads from AUM and works out of the box: start/pause from AUM, sync a la DM1 and also shows AUM's IAA-icon in it own UI. Very good!
    • Funk Drummer: idem dito as Rock DM. Again: very good!
    • DrumJam: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM (I tried both as Instrument and as Generator) it didn't react to AUM's start/pause, nor (IAA) and selecting DrumJam's UI it crashed! No good.
    • Diode-108: Loads automatically in AUM, but turns 'striped red' after that; after a few reloads it stays in AUM. Diode-108 shows no IAA-icon or -toolbar and start/pause and sync don't work. Bad!
    • Attack: Loads like Diode-108 (because of the animated intro-screen, that takes a while?), shows the IAA-toolbar (with the AUM-icon), but does not play/pause nor sync from within AUM.
    • Elastic Drums (with LINK enabled!): Loads from AUM, shows the AUM-icon in it's own UI, but does not react on AUM's play/pause en seems to be freezed up (it's own play-button is disabled): very bad result!
    • Drum Perfect (I don't have Pro): works like DM1 (syncs via IAA and starts/pauses in AUM) and also loads from within AUM. Very Good!

    So for me the winners are: with LINK-sync: Patterning, and with IAA-sync: Drum Perfect, Rock DM, Funk Drummer en DM1.

    Good effort Captain @Harro. Didn't realize DM1 would start so simply/well etc. Lots of old sample kits to explore...

  • lieslavishlieslavish

    @j_liljedahl said:

    A great example of why MIDI Clock sucks and why I choose not to include it in AUM. I don't want to encourage any developer to continue supporting it.

    The reason it interpreted the tempo as doubled is because MIDI Clock does not actually send tempo, it sends "clock ticks". On the receivers end, the tempo is then derived by counting how many ticks came in during a known time frame. There's 24 ticks for each beat (which is very low resolution), so if there where 48 ticks during the last second, it means tempo is 120 BPM. Now, if there's a double connection, each tick will be received twice! So then you'll get 96 ticks during the same second, which is interpreted as tempo 240 BPM!

    Thanks for explaining that. Sounds like a real roundabout way of going at things. Deez standards, man...

    @Harro said:
    Today I tested all my drum-apps in AUM to see how they synced (IAA or LINK) and started/stopped with AUM's play/pause-button. Here are the results:

    • DM1: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM, reacts on play/pause (!) and syncs very nice (via IAA, so a new tempo is only triggered after stop and play from within AUM) and shows the IAA-icon in its own UI, which is very nice.
    • Rock DM: loads from AUM and works out of the box: start/pause from AUM, sync a la DM1 and also shows AUM's IAA-icon in it own UI. Very good!
    • Funk Drummer: idem dito as Rock DM. Again: very good!
    • DrumJam: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM (I tried both as Instrument and as Generator) it didn't react to AUM's start/pause, nor (IAA) and selecting DrumJam's UI it crashed! No good.
    • Diode-108: Loads automatically in AUM, but turns 'striped red' after that; after a few reloads it stays in AUM. Diode-108 shows no IAA-icon or -toolbar and start/pause and sync don't work. Bad!
    • Attack: Loads like Diode-108 (because of the animated intro-screen, that takes a while?), shows the IAA-toolbar (with the AUM-icon), but does not play/pause nor sync from within AUM.
    • Elastic Drums (with LINK enabled!): Loads from AUM, shows the AUM-icon in it's own UI, but does not react on AUM's play/pause en seems to be freezed up (it's own play-button is disabled): very bad result!
    • Drum Perfect (I don't have Pro): works like DM1 (syncs via IAA and starts/pauses in AUM) and also loads from within AUM. Very Good!

    So for me the winners are: with LINK-sync: Patterning, and with IAA-sync: Drum Perfect, Rock DM, Funk Drummer en DM1.

    Thanks for the in-depth testing! It sounds like Elastic Drums has the same problem that iElectribe does; the in-app transport controls think that they're becoming the slave to somebody, but nobody seems to function as the master, either.

  • lieslavishlieslavish

    @j_liljedahl said:

    A great example of why MIDI Clock sucks and why I choose not to include it in AUM. I don't want to encourage any developer to continue supporting it.

    The reason it interpreted the tempo as doubled is because MIDI Clock does not actually send tempo, it sends "clock ticks". On the receivers end, the tempo is then derived by counting how many ticks came in during a known time frame. There's 24 ticks for each beat (which is very low resolution), so if there where 48 ticks during the last second, it means tempo is 120 BPM. Now, if there's a double connection, each tick will be received twice! So then you'll get 96 ticks during the same second, which is interpreted as tempo 240 BPM!

    Thanks for explaining that. Sounds like a real roundabout way of going at things. Deez standards, man...

    @Harro said:
    Today I tested all my drum-apps in AUM to see how they synced (IAA or LINK) and started/stopped with AUM's play/pause-button. Here are the results:

    • DM1: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM, reacts on play/pause (!) and syncs very nice (via IAA, so a new tempo is only triggered after stop and play from within AUM) and shows the IAA-icon in its own UI, which is very nice.
    • Rock DM: loads from AUM and works out of the box: start/pause from AUM, sync a la DM1 and also shows AUM's IAA-icon in it own UI. Very good!
    • Funk Drummer: idem dito as Rock DM. Again: very good!
    • DrumJam: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM (I tried both as Instrument and as Generator) it didn't react to AUM's start/pause, nor (IAA) and selecting DrumJam's UI it crashed! No good.
    • Diode-108: Loads automatically in AUM, but turns 'striped red' after that; after a few reloads it stays in AUM. Diode-108 shows no IAA-icon or -toolbar and start/pause and sync don't work. Bad!
    • Attack: Loads like Diode-108 (because of the animated intro-screen, that takes a while?), shows the IAA-toolbar (with the AUM-icon), but does not play/pause nor sync from within AUM.
    • Elastic Drums (with LINK enabled!): Loads from AUM, shows the AUM-icon in it's own UI, but does not react on AUM's play/pause en seems to be freezed up (it's own play-button is disabled): very bad result!
    • Drum Perfect (I don't have Pro): works like DM1 (syncs via IAA and starts/pauses in AUM) and also loads from within AUM. Very Good!

    So for me the winners are: with LINK-sync: Patterning, and with IAA-sync: Drum Perfect, Rock DM, Funk Drummer en DM1.

    Thanks for the in-depth testing! It sounds like Elastic Drums has the same problem that iElectribe does; the in-app transport controls think that they're becoming the slave to somebody, but nobody seems to function as the master, either.

  • j_liljedahlj_liljedahl

    @Harro said:
    Today I tested all my drum-apps in AUM to see how they synced (IAA or LINK) and started/stopped with AUM's play/pause-button. Here are the results:

    Great list!

    • DM1: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM, reacts on play/pause (!) and syncs very nice (via IAA, so a new tempo is only triggered after stop and play from within AUM) and shows the IAA-icon in its own UI, which is very nice.

    Actually, AUM does send tempo change to IAA nodes also while running. It's DM1 who ignores it while playing.

    • DrumJam: has to be loaded first outside AUM, but after loading in AUM (I tried both as Instrument and as Generator) it didn't react to AUM's start/pause, nor (IAA) and selecting DrumJam's UI it crashed! No good.

    @sonosaurus is working on it!

    • Elastic Drums (with LINK enabled!): Loads from AUM, shows the AUM-icon in it's own UI, but does not react on AUM's play/pause en seems to be freezed up (it's own play-button is disabled): very bad result!

    When an app syncs to Link instead of IAA sync, it won't react on AUM's transport controls, since Link has no transport state. In Elastic Drums, I think you need to tap somewhere to hide the IAA bar to show its play button? Don't remember exactly now, but I know I have got it synced with AUM via Link!

  • KorakiosKorakios
    edited February 2016

    @lala said:

    @Korakios said:

    @lala said:
    btw i never use midi start stop play pause (and spp) (well except from press start once?)
    link gives me all I need these days, here is our tempo would you like to join on the next "1" in the beat
    thats all I need :)

    But if you want to start 5 apps at the same time? Some of us still need a master (midi?) start/stop ...I don't know how AB sends the global start command but it saved me!

    hehe :)
    thats the well except from press start once part

    Ooops, missed that part :)

    @Harro said:

    • Diode-108: Loads automatically in AUM, but turns 'striped red' after that; after a few reloads it stays in AUM. Diode-108 shows no IAA-icon or -toolbar and start/pause and sync don't work. Bad!

    Diode loads fine for me ,but no sync. (only midi works)

    • Elastic Drums (with LINK enabled!): Loads from AUM, shows the AUM-icon in it's own UI, but does not react on AUM's play/pause en seems to be freezed up (it's own play-button is disabled): very bad result!

    (Edit : @j_liljedahl already posted) Press the "IAA" (left from bpm) ,and then Elastic's play button reveals . It will play forever ,but at least it follows the tempo via Link...

  • AudiojunkieAudiojunkie

    @Wally said:
    Launch Aum (Link ON) inside Audiobus (Link On) , & drum app/s( IAA ON) inside Aum :
    Audiobus <> Link <> Aum = IAA <> drum machine
    you can start drummachine from :
    1. Audiobus Panel "PLAY" ( Link Global Start ), starts AUM Play & ALL other apps
    2. Aum "PLAY" ( IAA master synced to Link tempo /beat) starts Aum loaded Apps
    3. drummachine app ( synced to Link tempo/beat) starts itself .

    Very useful description !

  • pierrepierre

    Egoist,Thesys and Sector respond to start and IAA sync in AUM,
    Modrum has Link and give a very good experience (sound amazing with AUM internal FX)

  • HarroHarro

    @pierre said:
    Egoist,Thesys and Sector respond to start and IAA sync in AUM,
    Modrum has Link and give a very good experience (sound amazing with AUM internal FX)

    Yes, those three apps IAA-sync very well in AUM! And they all show their own IAA-toolbar as IAA-apps should... Also, they form a great trio to make music with!

  • lukesleepwalkerlukesleepwalker

    I think everyone in the AB forums should email Ableton and tell them to include transport control info in Link. Maybe they'd start to listen?

  • khidr9khidr9

    @lukesleepwalker said:
    I think everyone in the AB forums should email Ableton and tell them to include transport control info in Link. Maybe they'd start to listen?

    Right? Live itself has session AND arrangement views for performance/generating and tracking. It's kind of in their dna to have a toggle for transport/linear mode

  • Wally Wally
    edited February 2016

    @lukesleepwalker said:
    I think everyone in the AB forums should email Ableton and tell them to include transport control info in Link. Maybe they'd start to listen?

    Thanks to Audiobus getting the Link implementation rights for IOS ,
    their uncluttered minimal aesthetic results in the Transport control info ONLY available in the Audiobus Panel as the triangular PLAY button ( not in AB app itself annoyingly ) ,
    and thanks to resource streamlining the Bar/Beat/Quantum readout is visible in (most of) the Linked apps , along with the TEMPO display which of course is Global to all apps.

    So Play/Stop , Bar/Beat/Quantum & Tempo....what other Transport control info were you thinking of ?

  • lukesleepwalkerlukesleepwalker

    @Wally said:

    @lukesleepwalker said:
    I think everyone in the AB forums should email Ableton and tell them to include transport control info in Link. Maybe they'd start to listen?

    Thanks to Audiobus getting the Link implementation rights for IOS ,
    their uncluttered minimal aesthetic results in the Transport control info ONLY available in the Audiobus Panel as the triangular PLAY button ( not in AB app itself annoyingly ) ,
    and thanks to resource streamlining the Bar/Beat/Quantum readout is visible in (most of) the Linked apps , along with the TEMPO display which of course is Global to all apps.

    So Play/Stop , Bar/Beat/Quantum & Tempo....what other Transport control info were you thinking of ?

    I would be thrilled with just adding start/stop.

  • khidr9khidr9

    You need a basic return/rewind to make sure everything is at the top too. AB can do basic start stop but won't sync time and despite what's above link doesn't sync current bar either.

  • u0421793u0421793

    Hang on a minute, Link is also for working over wifi and the IEEE 802.11 standard includes a so-called Timing Synchronization Function (TSF), which might be useful for giving an absolute reference to when everything should have started (or will stop or rewind).

  • AudiojunkieAudiojunkie

    @lukesleepwalker said:
    I think everyone in the AB forums should email Ableton and tell them to include transport control info in Link. Maybe they'd start to listen?

    I would LOVE to see this!!

  • AudiojunkieAudiojunkie

    @Wally said:

    @lukesleepwalker said:
    I think everyone in the AB forums should email Ableton and tell them to include transport control info in Link. Maybe they'd start to listen?

    Thanks to Audiobus getting the Link implementation rights for IOS ,
    their uncluttered minimal aesthetic results in the Transport control info ONLY available in the Audiobus Panel as the triangular PLAY button ( not in AB app itself annoyingly ) ,
    and thanks to resource streamlining the Bar/Beat/Quantum readout is visible in (most of) the Linked apps , along with the TEMPO display which of course is Global to all apps.

    So Play/Stop , Bar/Beat/Quantum & Tempo....what other Transport control info were you thinking of ?

    Record

  • Telstar5Telstar5

    Arghhhh! So guys... What IS the single best way to sync apps together so that they work in Tandem?

  • lieslavishlieslavish

    @Telstar5 said:
    Arghhhh! So guys... What IS the single best way to sync apps together so that they work in Tandem?

    You'd think that, in 2016, it'd be easier -- it'd be more sensible -- but, if this thread has made anything clear, it's that there really is no one, reliable way to make apps work together. The only thing that I've ever had consistent success doing is what some people have also recommended in this thread, haha: don't bother trying to make apps synchronize and just sample your loops and put them into a looper.

    Out of all of the technologies talked about here, I've had the most success with MIDI clock; it's USUALLY pretty straight-forward, but it doesn't always work. What I tend to do is have two or three apps playing at once, and I synchronize them manually by hitting their respective 'play' transports with the right timing. Then, if I need to coordinate any more apps beyond that, I start sampling things and putting them into an app like BeatMaker, BeatHawk, Loopy, etc., etc., so that I don't need to manually manage the synchronizing of more than a few apps at once.

    Sorry that I didn't really answer your question, but just a hot tip: when you're talking about keeping tracks synchronized, don't forget about just recording the tracks and sequencing the recordings. Another thing that I'll do is just open Genome or another MIDI sequencer and have that just send MIDI notes to everything so that its transport is the only one that needs to run.

    As for getting a bunch of apps to have their respective sequencers all running together...? Nah, son... nah...

  • j_liljedahlj_liljedahl

    @Telstar5 said:
    Arghhhh! So guys... What IS the single best way to sync apps together so that they work in Tandem?

    Ableton Link is a very good way to sync apps together, with good accuracy. However it does not have any transport control mechanism built-in (that's why Audiobus added their own global play trigger button).

    Inter-App Audio host sync is even more accurate, but does not work across devices. It does have transport controls. If you start the host, the hosted node apps will start as well. Inter-App Audio host sync is not really harder to implement than Ableton Link. http://lijon.github.io/ios_audio_sync.html

    Both technologies have their distinct roles in my own humble opinion: Link for live jamming, multiple users, multple devices. IAA sync for production, DAW work, recording, single-person workflows.

  • AndyPlanktonAndyPlankton

    Dont forget good old MIDI

    If you have a midi controller, and your apps allow you to MIDI Learn or map the transport buttons, then you can map them all to the same midi control, giving you Global start/stop/record if you wish. It does rely on your apps having midi control of the transport controls though.

    I am doing this using a NanoKontrol2 starting AUM and ModStep together.

  • lieslavishlieslavish

    @AndyPlankton said:
    Dont forget good old MIDI

    If you have a midi controller, and your apps allow you to MIDI Learn or map the transport buttons, then you can map them all to the same midi control, giving you Global start/stop/record if you wish. It does rely on your apps having midi control of the transport controls though.

    I am doing this using a NanoKontrol2 starting AUM and ModStep together.

    I never would have thought of that, haha. Clever!

  • lukesleepwalkerlukesleepwalker

    @j_liljedahl said:
    Both technologies have their distinct roles in my own humble opinion: Link for live jamming, multiple users, multple devices. IAA sync for production, DAW work, recording, single-person workflows.

    100% on the money. That's why I could live with simple start/stop in Link rather than record, etc... There ARE times, even if you are playing a "set" where you might need to start/stop a multi-player session.

  • AudiojunkieAudiojunkie

    @j_liljedahl said:

    @Telstar5 said:
    Arghhhh! So guys... What IS the single best way to sync apps together so that they work in Tandem?

    Ableton Link is a very good way to sync apps together, with good accuracy. However it does not have any transport control mechanism built-in (that's why Audiobus added their own global play trigger button).

    Inter-App Audio host sync is even more accurate, but does not work across devices. It does have transport controls. If you start the host, the hosted node apps will start as well. Inter-App Audio host sync is not really harder to implement than Ableton Link. http://lijon.github.io/ios_audio_sync.html

    Both technologies have their distinct roles in my own humble opinion: Link for live jamming, multiple users, multple devices. IAA sync for production, DAW work, recording, single-person workflows.

    So, for production work, should we be encouraging developers to develop IAA (Instrument, not generator) to get the transport controls to control the instruments? My understanding is that IAA Generator (not IAA Instrument) cannot be controlled with transport. Is my thinking correct in this? @j_liljedahl

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