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Infinite/Aleph Looper 1.3 update -- piano roll editing improvements

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Comments

  • @ExAsperis99 said:
    So in the cage match between Infinite Looper and Modstep? Are these duplicative? Anyone use both? I really like Modstep as a way to build up variations on a theme. Not interested in live performance at the moment.

    If it's working for you keep at it. Personally I find IL a lot quicker/easier/more intuitive etc., but I haven't put the time in with MS. If you're getting there keep going...

  • Infinite Looper is much easier and quicker to use than ModStep, but nowhere near as fully featured. For instance, you can't automate CC's (yet) in IL. There are no templates in IL like there are in ModStep. You can't add AU or IAA FX, etc. But they are similar in many ways.

    IL has a couple of great things going for it that ModStep doesn't. First, you can have more than one clip running at a time for each track. So for instance, you can set up a kick and snare in one clip, and your hats in another, then trigger the hats clip on and off as you want. The process for this in ModStep is more cumbersome.

    Second is the song mode. ModStep's and IL's approaches are very different in this. I think IL's is more flexible and intuitive. Once you build your variations, its got a pretty cool way of linking it all together into a song.

    If you're no longer struggling with ModStep and are comfortable with it, then you might just want to stick with it. If ModStep's depth and oddities are still getting in the way of creativity, then Infinite Looper is definitely worth checking out.

  • @wim said:
    Infinite Looper is much easier and quicker to use than ModStep, but nowhere near as fully featured. For instance, you can't automate CC's (yet) in IL. There are no templates in IL like there are in ModStep. You can't add AU or IAA FX, etc. But they are similar in many ways.

    IL has a couple of great things going for it that ModStep doesn't. First, you can have more than one clip running at a time for each track. So for instance, you can set up a kick and snare in one clip, and your hats in another, then trigger the hats clip on and off as you want. The process for this in ModStep is more cumbersome.

    Second is the song mode. ModStep's and IL's approaches are very different in this. I think IL's is more flexible and intuitive. Once you build your variations, its got a pretty cool way of linking it all together into a song.

    If you're no longer struggling with ModStep and are comfortable with it, then you might just want to stick with it. If ModStep's depth and oddities are still getting in the way of creativity, then Infinite Looper is definitely worth checking out.

    Very helpful, thank you. (You too @JohnnyGoodyear).

    I like being able to use more than one clip in a track at a time. That sounds great. And I find MS's lack of song structure...challenging. The lack of effects is a bummer, but I guess I could host apps in AUM? Although it sounds as if I probably chose the wrong one to begin with and learned it despite itself, so I should probably just stick with Modstep. WHICH IS DUE FOR AN UPDATE, NO?

  • edited August 2016

    I'd been looking for something like Genome but for the iPhone. @wim had recommended IL before, but I didn't like the piano roll that was generously included when this dev gave the "Nice To Be Your Friend" app all of the IL features without save, etc. before he retired it.

    Didn't really need IL for my needs since Genome is meeting my needs, but I decided to buy the iPhone version of IL, Aleph Looper 1.3, and gave it a spin for a dollar. MUCH better with the updated piano roll editing. Perfect piano roll for the iPhone. :)

  • Is there a way to save all your midi settings with each project? Thanks!

  • @MusicMan4Christ said:
    Is there a way to save all your midi settings with each project? Thanks!

    The app should retain the MIDI routing, but there's no way to store the patch settings (and a lot of apps don't even respond to program change messages). I'm going to be adding program change messages per track on the next update, but it won't work for everything.

    It's good to hear that the piano roll is working for folks -- that was the (justified) major gripe on the earlier version!

  • @SecretBaseDesign said:

    @MusicMan4Christ said:
    Is there a way to save all your midi settings with each project? Thanks!

    The app should retain the MIDI routing, but there's no way to store the patch settings (and a lot of apps don't even respond to program change messages). I'm going to be adding program change messages per track on the next update, but it won't work for everything.

    It's good to hear that the piano roll is working for folks -- that was the (justified) major gripe on the earlier version!

    Big step forward.

  • I wish someone would post some videos on their workflow for building a drum track....like doing fills and stuff sorta like how you would setup your loops to create intros verses chorus etcccc would really love to see the inf pros post something like that . I'm really loving this app big time! I'm really considering the AU effects for AUM to host my drums and synths but it would be super awesome if Inf Looper allowed AU effects and synths that would prevent opening so many other apps.

  • @SecretBaseDesign Enjoying this very much. Great update. Am playing all kinds of things through it. Shame they don't all remember the patch I end up with when I want to come back to it, but I can live with that. However, am struggling (with the foregoing in mind) to make notes in the note section. Would be really helpful to be able to add what patch in Mitosynth/whatever a pattern is/was using. While the app responds to the keyboard typing in a file name etc, I can't seem to get it to respond in the notes area. Any tips? (Big Boy/latest).

  • @JohnnyGoodyear said:
    @SecretBaseDesign Enjoying this very much. Great update. Am playing all kinds of things through it. Shame they don't all remember the patch I end up with when I want to come back to it, but I can live with that. However, am struggling (with the foregoing in mind) to make notes in the note section. Would be really helpful to be able to add what patch in Mitosynth/whatever a pattern is/was using. While the app responds to the keyboard typing in a file name etc, I can't seem to get it to respond in the notes area. Any tips? (Big Boy/latest).

    If there is a lot of text already, it can be hard to see the Edit button. Scroll the note all the way down to the bottom and you'll see it.

  • For the notes, the "edit" button is in the lower right corner -- tap that, and it will open things full-screen for you to do editing. On the regular interface, you can only scroll through -- so if you've got lyrics you're reading, or stuff like that, you can move through without the on-screen keyboard popping up. The edit button is tucked out of the way so that you're less likely to accidentally hit it, and it won't block the text you're reading. If you're actually making changes, it's a separate screen.

    And yes, setting patches in IAA synths is a pain. I'll add program change messages in the next release, but not all apps support this.

  • @aaronpc said:

    If there is a lot of text already, it can be hard to see the Edit button. Scroll the note all the way down to the bottom and you'll see it.

    @SecretBaseDesign
    For the notes, the "edit" button is in the lower right corner -- tap that, and it will open things full-screen for you to do editing. On the regular interface, you can only scroll through -- so if you've got lyrics you're reading, or stuff like that, you can move through without the on-screen keyboard popping up. The edit button is tucked out of the way so that you're less likely to accidentally hit it, and it won't block the text you're reading. If you're actually making changes, it's a separate screen.

    And yes, setting patches in IAA synths is a pain. I'll add program change messages in the next release, but not all apps support this.

    Double brilliant. Thank you both.

  • Spent some more time with this. Here is some feedback and requests:

    • Simplicity of this has me making way more music and less time on setup than with modstep.
    • Multiple clips in same column is great for building up layered drums and breaking them back down.
    • Song mode sections are brilliant. Finally able to break out of the endless (infinite?) loops and build live loop performance with verse/chorus type changes
    • I REALLY need per track midi input settings. Like modstep. I need to tell the drum channel to listen to my DrumKAT on ch 10 and the synth track to listen to my midi keyboard. Right now all I can do is set midi to Omni and all controllers can play any track. I need more specificity. Look at Modstep, they got this right: per track midi in and out settings, and the ability to Arm or not arm each track to listen for input.
    • When I stop a clip from playing, or click a new section in song mode, the clip still plays the remaining notes in the current measure before muting. I would expect the currently sounding midi note to finish but I wouldn't expect it to keep firing a few more notes.
    • I'm not using the built in synth or hosting IAA in it. I'm pointing it to IAA or AU apps hosted in AUM. Is there a way to change the track names to something other than the built in synth names?
  • @gburks said:
    Spent some more time with this. Here is some feedback and requests:

    • When I stop a clip from playing, or click a new section in song mode, the clip still plays the remaining notes in the current measure before muting. I would expect the currently sounding midi note to finish but I wouldn't expect it to keep firing a few more notes.

    Conversely that's exactly what I would expect (and want) it to do.

    Maybe there could be some sort of control on each loop to specify how it starts and ends a bit like in launchpad?

  • @BiancaNeve said:

    @gburks said:
    Spent some more time with this. Here is some feedback and requests:

    • When I stop a clip from playing, or click a new section in song mode, the clip still plays the remaining notes in the current measure before muting. I would expect the currently sounding midi note to finish but I wouldn't expect it to keep firing a few more notes.

    Conversely that's exactly what I would expect (and want) it to do.

    Maybe there could be some sort of control on each loop to specify how it starts and ends a bit like in launchpad?

    Yeah forget about that one. It makes sense to me now. Instead I think what I would want is mute/solo buttons on the mixer.

  • @gburks said:

    @BiancaNeve said:

    @gburks said:
    Spent some more time with this. Here is some feedback and requests:

    • When I stop a clip from playing, or click a new section in song mode, the clip still plays the remaining notes in the current measure before muting. I would expect the currently sounding midi note to finish but I wouldn't expect it to keep firing a few more notes.

    Conversely that's exactly what I would expect (and want) it to do.

    Maybe there could be some sort of control on each loop to specify how it starts and ends a bit like in launchpad?

    Yeah forget about that one. It makes sense to me now. Instead I think what I would want is mute/solo buttons on the mixer.

    Yeah, some kind of more specific control would be good.

  • so........ I should get this then....huh? :)

  • @gburks said:
    Spent some more time with this. Here is some feedback and requests:

    • Simplicity of this has me making way more music and less time on setup than with modstep.
    • Multiple clips in same column is great for building up layered drums and breaking them back down.
    • Song mode sections are brilliant. Finally able to break out of the endless (infinite?) loops and build live loop performance with verse/chorus type changes

    :smile:

    I much prefer traditional song structures -- verse, chorus, bridge, and so on. I grew up on the Beatles, Iggy Pop, James Brown, the MC5.... IMO, if it doesn't sound good on an acoustic guitar.... it's probably not a good song! (Ok, everyone, break out the pitchforks and torches! I can take it!). There are some great synth and effect apps on iOS, but it's way too easy to make something that sounds impressive, but just doesn't go anywhere musically. I'm hoping that the song sections will help people break out of the rut.

    • I REALLY need per track midi input settings. Like modstep. I need to tell the drum channel to listen to my DrumKAT on ch 10 and the synth track to listen to my midi keyboard. Right now all I can do is set midi to Omni and all controllers can play any track. I need more specificity. Look at Modstep, they got this right: per track midi in and out settings, and the ability to Arm or not arm each track to listen for input.

    Understood -- I'll see what I can do on this front. I've got some MIDI routing rearrangement planned. Do you think you'd want to be able to record multiple loops simultaneously?

    • When I stop a clip from playing, or click a new section in song mode, the clip still plays the remaining notes in the current measure before muting. I would expect the currently sounding midi note to finish but I wouldn't expect it to keep firing a few more notes.

    This is an artifact of how the MIDI scheduling is done -- the app sends MIDI out to iOS ahead of time (you can schedule ahead), so that the MIDI arrives and plays at the right time, even on remote synths. This is particularly critical if you're dealing with hardware synths; musicIO supports this too, so that your iOS device can stay in sync with a Mac.

    So.... measures are scheduled one at a time, and all of the notes in the measure are sent out early. But I may have to tweak this to get CC working correctly -- if I send CC messages early, and then you twiddle the knob during the measure, the early CC messages need to get cancelled. Anyway, I'm thinking about this, and it may work differently in the future.

    • I'm not using the built in synth or hosting IAA in it. I'm pointing it to IAA or AU apps hosted in AUM. Is there a way to change the track names to something other than the built in synth names?

    I'll add this too, in the next update.

  • @High5denied said:
    so........ I should get this then....huh? :)

    Aleph Looper (the iPhone only version) is currently a buck, so it's not a big gamble. You can see if it works for you, and go universal if you dig it. There's a bundle, so the buck you might spend on Aleph goes to the full price of Infinite (which is $10 right now).

    The files are interchangeable -- should transfer back and forth with no trouble (and you can use AirDrop or Dropbox to move them around).

    I'm seeing a fairly good conversion rate of people trying the iPhone version, and then grabbing the universal version with the bundle. I might try making Aleph free, and seeing if that drives traffic, and is a net win. With iOS apps, getting people to even try something is difficult.... And if someone really doesn't like the app, I don't want their money anyway.

  • @High5denied said:
    so........ I should get this then....huh? :)

    Yes. It's a 'get shit done' app and it has a developer who's doing things and has their head in the game.

  • @SecretBaseDesign said:

    @High5denied said:
    so........ I should get this then....huh? :)

    Aleph Looper (the iPhone only version) is currently a buck, so it's not a big gamble. You can see if it works for you, and go universal if you dig it. There's a bundle, so the buck you might spend on Aleph goes to the full price of Infinite (which is $10 right now).

    The files are interchangeable -- should transfer back and forth with no trouble (and you can use AirDrop or Dropbox to move them around).

    I'm seeing a fairly good conversion rate of people trying the iPhone version, and then grabbing the universal version with the bundle. I might try making Aleph free, and seeing if that drives traffic, and is a net win. With iOS apps, getting people to even try something is difficult.... And if someone really doesn't like the app, I don't want their money anyway.

    That's fair. I think I'll just go for it, $10.00 is a deal. :)

  • @SecretBaseDesign said:

    @High5denied said:
    so........ I should get this then....huh? :)

    Aleph Looper (the iPhone only version) is currently a buck, so it's not a big gamble. You can see if it works for you, and go universal if you dig it. There's a bundle, so the buck you might spend on Aleph goes to the full price of Infinite (which is $10 right now).

    The files are interchangeable -- should transfer back and forth with no trouble (and you can use AirDrop or Dropbox to move them around).

    I'm seeing a fairly good conversion rate of people trying the iPhone version, and then grabbing the universal version with the bundle. I might try making Aleph free, and seeing if that drives traffic, and is a net win. With iOS apps, getting people to even try something is difficult.... And if someone really doesn't like the app, I don't want their money anyway.

    Just my two cents worth... but I think you should leave Aleph at a buck and not free. Not because I just bought it at a buck ;) but because I think there's a psychological impact of when you make it free, there's a significant devaluation of the product that might transfer subconsciously to the companion product. Aleph is worth more than a buck for sure, I'm guessing it's on sale now anyway?

    I didn't convert to full IL, because for the piano roll I'm good with Genome. I bought Aleph for the piano roll for iPhone only. There really isn't another one, though you can kind of make Xynthesizer work as a sort of piano roll on the iPhone, but not quite.

  • @gburks said:

    @BiancaNeve said:

    @gburks said:
    Spent some more time with this. Here is some feedback and requests:

    • When I stop a clip from playing, or click a new section in song mode, the clip still plays the remaining notes in the current measure before muting. I would expect the currently sounding midi note to finish but I wouldn't expect it to keep firing a few more notes.

    Conversely that's exactly what I would expect (and want) it to do.

    Maybe there could be some sort of control on each loop to specify how it starts and ends a bit like in launchpad?

    Yeah forget about that one. It makes sense to me now. Instead I think what I would want is mute/solo buttons on the mixer.

    Yes. I like that the current measure plays out. It's rare that I can hit a clip right where I would like it to stop and I don't like having to try. Mute/solo buttons are the most elegant way to have it both ways.

  • @SecretBaseDesign said:

    And yes, setting patches in IAA synths is a pain. I'll add program change messages in the next release, but not all apps support this.

    So does this mean bank select and all of that? I hope!

  • @TozBourne said:

    @SecretBaseDesign said:

    And yes, setting patches in IAA synths is a pain. I'll add program change messages in the next release, but not all apps support this.

    So does this mean bank select and all of that? I hope!

    Yes. Program Change and Bank Select messages are easy to do; the big hassle is that not all synth apps support them.

  • @SecretBaseDesign said:
    Understood -- I'll see what I can do on this front. I've got some MIDI routing rearrangement planned. Do you think you'd want to be able to record multiple loops simultaneously?

    Multi-player mode! Yes, I would use that in a collaborative or band environment, but probably not until you had more extensive midi mapping. I would use this with multiple players if we could have midi foot pedals mapped to hit record on a specific cell.

    On that note (I think I've requested this before) I would love as close to a Loopy-like experience as possible. Jam for a while, discover a cool riff, tap on a pedal while I'm still playing to start recording, tap on the pedal again when the loop is done. Now riff on top of that loop until I find a part to layer, loop, layer, repeat. To do that, you would need the length of the measure to adjust itself dynamically based on how long you recorded, instead of having to know loop length ahead of time. And you would probably need to be able to map a pedal to record to next empty clip in a track.

  • edited August 2016

    @SecretBaseDesign said:
    Understood -- I'll see what I can do on this front. I've got some MIDI routing rearrangement planned. Do you think you'd want to be able to record multiple loops simultaneously?

    Multi-player mode! Yes, I would use that in a collaborative or band environment, but probably not until you had more extensive midi mapping. I would use this with multiple players if we could have midi foot pedals mapped to hit record on a specific cell. Not sure how multiple musicians would crowd around one iPad so it would need mapping.

    On that note (I think I've requested this before) I would love as close to a Loopy-like experience as possible. Jam for a while, discover a cool riff, tap on a pedal while I'm still playing to start recording, tap on the pedal again when the loop is done. Now riff on top of that loop until I find a part to layer, loop, layer, repeat. To do that, you would need the length of the measure to adjust itself dynamically based on how long you recorded, instead of having to know loop length ahead of time. And you would probably need to be able to map a pedal to record to next empty clip in a track.

  • @SecretBaseDesign said:

    @TozBourne said:

    @SecretBaseDesign said:

    And yes, setting patches in IAA synths is a pain. I'll add program change messages in the next release, but not all apps support this.

    So does this mean bank select and all of that? I hope!

    Yes. Program Change and Bank Select messages are easy to do; the big hassle is that not all synth apps support them.

    I knew that some apps don't support PC and bank change messages, but some do (iSymphonic, for one), as do my external keyboards which is the real reason I asked. A big thanks for your efforts on this and for all of your cool apps!

  • This is sounding better and better. (I've loved the challenge of Modstep, but the finickiness is getting tiresome.) But is there a decent video of someone using IL out there? And not the Secret Base intro: No offense, but I think that is not helping you. I'd like to see IL using Animoog and Sunrizer and Patterning.

  • Definitely would love multiple record via midi in! That would be so awesome! And also via midi out multi record cause one track could be pointing to different tracks in AUM. Could you also have it where when I select a specific midi out channel or midi in but mostly midi out, to be able to select what range on the keyboard notes to filter out and send? This would be so cool to create midi splits and record or play bass on left side and pad on right side with midi controller and be able to record both at same time.

    @SecretBaseDesign said:

    @gburks said:
    Spent some more time with this. Here is some feedback and requests:

    • Simplicity of this has me making way more music and less time on setup than with modstep.
    • Multiple clips in same column is great for building up layered drums and breaking them back down.
    • Song mode sections are brilliant. Finally able to break out of the endless (infinite?) loops and build live loop performance with verse/chorus type changes

    :smile:

    I much prefer traditional song structures -- verse, chorus, bridge, and so on. I grew up on the Beatles, Iggy Pop, James Brown, the MC5.... IMO, if it doesn't sound good on an acoustic guitar.... it's probably not a good song! (Ok, everyone, break out the pitchforks and torches! I can take it!). There are some great synth and effect apps on iOS, but it's way too easy to make something that sounds impressive, but just doesn't go anywhere musically. I'm hoping that the song sections will help people break out of the rut.

    • I REALLY need per track midi input settings. Like modstep. I need to tell the drum channel to listen to my DrumKAT on ch 10 and the synth track to listen to my midi keyboard. Right now all I can do is set midi to Omni and all controllers can play any track. I need more specificity. Look at Modstep, they got this right: per track midi in and out settings, and the ability to Arm or not arm each track to listen for input.

    Understood -- I'll see what I can do on this front. I've got some MIDI routing rearrangement planned. Do you think you'd want to be able to record multiple loops simultaneously?

    • When I stop a clip from playing, or click a new section in song mode, the clip still plays the remaining notes in the current measure before muting. I would expect the currently sounding midi note to finish but I wouldn't expect it to keep firing a few more notes.

    This is an artifact of how the MIDI scheduling is done -- the app sends MIDI out to iOS ahead of time (you can schedule ahead), so that the MIDI arrives and plays at the right time, even on remote synths. This is particularly critical if you're dealing with hardware synths; musicIO supports this too, so that your iOS device can stay in sync with a Mac.

    So.... measures are scheduled one at a time, and all of the notes in the measure are sent out early. But I may have to tweak this to get CC working correctly -- if I send CC messages early, and then you twiddle the knob during the measure, the early CC messages need to get cancelled. Anyway, I'm thinking about this, and it may work differently in the future.

    • I'm not using the built in synth or hosting IAA in it. I'm pointing it to IAA or AU apps hosted in AUM. Is there a way to change the track names to something other than the built in synth names?

    I'll add this too, in the next update.

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