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iOS vs. Ableton10
As we address some iOS AU vs IAA stuff -------I have another question.
Ableton10, do you think it is a suitable replacement for iOS with all the new aspects and instruments?
So many apps are really things found in Ableton anyway.
So, why are you on iOS making your music and not PC/MAC?
If you use both, tell me how. I am interested.
Comments
Hey brother -
More and more I like iOS for the “non-conventional-DAW” stuff that it does best - the Rotor, Takete, Mazetools, Tabletop, SunVox AUM:Rozeta etc. And as an instrument to jam on.
I have a touchscreen laptop with QWERTY and a monster DAW on it, with monster vst.
I do love BM3 though, so this isn’t an hard and fast rule
On iOS for the following reasons:
Korg Gadget since the sampler update brings a synergy I’ve not found anywhere else yet.
Start in Gadget finish in Ableton.
Also with Studiomux and even now the Apple inter device audio together with Ableton Link make iOS an extension of Ableton which are awesome to use together.
I moved from ableton to ios because i find working on desktop somehow uninspiring and it has too many distractions. Somehow having to use mouse and keyboard takes me instantly away from creative mode. Using ipad feels more like using music making hardware.
And i did also have push, so its not even like i only used mouse and keys.
I recently switched from iOS to MacBook Pro with Ableton and Push 2.
It’s another planet, really.
I’m grateful to iOS for help me start with music software, as previously I was an “only hardware” kind of guy, and I was looking at desktop daws as something too difficult for me.
Gotta admit that I never managed to learn Cubasis while I’m just finishing my first tune in a couple of days with Ableton though...
My 13” MacBook Pro it’s as portable as an iPad, and I don’t have to use a mouse, I feel comfortable with its great touchpad.
I use both with Studiomux...........however ios has really helped me break away from old stale workflows.....i love the whole iPad touchscreen thing, and the innovation of lots of the ios apps.... it's .been a breath of fresh air for me, although i do use both equally , i see them as two parts of a whole system now.......
First of all, the question is rather what fraction of Ableton Live's functionality is available on iOS. In fact, they're too different to make a 1:1 comparison.
I use both. And a lot of time has passed until I found which of these two worlds (or planets, like @rumorazzi rightly said) I should use best in what situation.
iOS apps can deliver immediacy, quick results, fun, inspiration and make you keen to experiment because of the limited functionality of apps. Being limited can turn into a challenge to find other ways to reach your goal, sometimes with interesting results.
Whenever I have to get serious and have to "get the job done", then no question, I really have to switch to Ableton Live because sooner or later I'll stumble upon several limitations that there aren't any solutions for on iOS today.
Examples:
Long story short - I often see myself coming back to the simpler iOS apps that allow me to do most of what I want in very short time, on the couch, on the toilet, in the waiting room or when the pizza in the oven needs another 10 minutes.
If you can afford to take your time with Ableton Suite 9/10, you'll be surprised how complete a package it is. Great instruments and quality effects hidden under "boring" but functional UIs. Very customizable, controllable, scriptable and if you want to go further, develop your own plugins using Max4Live - otherwise there are thousands of m4l instruments and effects available for free.
If you like the all-in-one idea, other packages like FL Studio, Reason 10 and Logic Pro X may be worth a look too.
Which one to choose is a very personal thing, everybody has their own preferences.
Well thank you.
I am on fence, new iPad Pro to accommodate Gigs/CPU or Ableton(FULL MAX)
I also have Launchpad Pro, Launchkey, and LaunchcontrolXL which seem to make Ableton a more appealing choice.
I just don't feel grounded due to app lack of stability over last 6 months for what I use. Too many distractions it seems dealing with "updates".
That is just me.
I also thought maybe just get Circuit and try that with the iPads.
Appreciate the feedback
iOS = train/bus/couch/balcony/park/airport
PC Daws = the laptop on a sidetable of the couch with VSTs acting as sound modules into BM3. One day I may actually sit at a desk again at home and mix some BM3 tracks... or not.
I bet it's not just you, that's for sure.
At least we have the choice, and the choices aren't as bad and clunky as they've been decades ago ;-)
Well intua did promise bm3 for mac
I would prefer iOS still over Abelton (i don‘t like it and it lacks features i want) but Logic and other DAW‘s over iOS.
IOS just lacks too many tools i couldn‘t live without it.
It was a great entree into the music world about 5 or 6 years ago but mac and Logic and my fav. plug-ins are another world. A notebook is as mobile as i need it but still more comfortable to use for me as a big iPad.
The touch screen is great for some unique apps but in general i even can play more expressive with the macbook keyboard and trackpad as midi input.
I just need tactile feedback now.
I thought for while to go back but it would be a step or 2 back for me. IOS is a part of bigger set-up.
Ableton export in quite a few apps makes it very easy to start ideas on iOS and quickly build a collection of projects for further arrangements. I would recommend getting the suite if you decide on picking up Ableton.
I use iOS as the initial way to come up with ideas. I can play with my phone in some scenic or inspiring place, and just capture an idea I want to expand on in the studio later. Things like Auxy or Groovebox let me capture not just musical inspirations, but the vibe of a place very quickly. Simple, fast, fun. Sounds feaking good too.
When I get back home and open it up in Live, it's a whole different world though. Being able to easily add world class effects and instruments on top of my ideas, with something like Push to play them, record other instruments easily, it's next level for me. As much as I like making music on iOS devices, and have done the whole album in Auria project thing a few times, it's just way easier and faster on the laptop for me. None of the little teething things iOS music making is still kicking it's way free from. Having access to key commands and a large touch pad still is more fluid for me when it comes to arranging and editing too.
Just my $0.02 though.
What @rs2000 said with lots of whining on top on my side.
I find making music on iOS such a suffering.
I’m trying to lay down a track on BM3 and: lots of crashes, loop playing skipping the first note, hang notes, automations and envelopes absolutely silly and hard as fuck to get ‘em right(no curves/tension, adding and moving points is a pain, ghost automations, strange response curves, no response from drawn automations and so on.
On Auria: notes get deleted for no reasons, a over clunky workflow and automations have just the same problems as above.
Same goes with cubasis.
AUM is a jewel but I need to visualize in a more conventional way.
I love most of the apps I bought over time(but gadget), there is some amazing and totally inspiring software around but it is too hard for me to find a workflow that actually works.
iOS is a great place for sound design, but it really seems to be 10 years ago when it comes to full fledged production. It could be great for recording but, again, internal memory and the file system do not really encourage.
Long story short: I’m really missing a computer. iOS is still way far from being a replacement for properly used personal computers. So @RUST( i )K from my perspective a MBP would be a much more intelligent choice, and long lasting since an iPad is officially obsolete after 4/5 years
I get about one every couple hours now. (used to be every twenty minutes which was stunning) Save often kids.
Yes, annoying!
Have not had this with Zeeon, midi out to vsts or samples.
It gets better! I used to hate it, now it is just fine to me.
I may have this... ones that record for no reason and are blank? yes
Not sure I get this
I thought I was having this too until i realised that I had to wait for the segment to re-loop playing then sure enough, there it is. if you draw automation right in front of the playhead it won't take until the segment loops around again
True. BUT, it is amazingly updated constantly. So I am just going to hang out and enjoy building up my reservoir of goods (samples, track sketches etc). If you gotta build amazing high end final stuff right right now then yes, frustration could abound... as far as ponies to bet on I feel more than brainwashed that this is the mobile ride for me. In six months to a year it will be paradise. I am practically there now with my workflow. insert 'Fabulous' rainbow unicorn jumping gif etc
Oh yah, it is a hard core happy fun time hobby toy to me. For full fledge production I would just use my big assed tower PC beast and have fun being cheeky dropping in iOS bits or flushing out / mixing / overdubbing the snot out of my BM3 tracks with sexy vst fx and synths.
Yup, I won't spend more than $550 on a tablet for a looooong time
BOTH
I started this "computer music" hobby with Ableton 1 back in the days of Reason 2.0 and AcidPro (Sonic Foundary's version) on a shitty desktop with 512 RAM.
Seeing where iOS and "making music on a sheet of metal and glass" has gone just blows my mind.
I began messing with iOS music with iMachine a few years ago, and my interest grew with Ableton link. Apps got better and have gone from gimmicky gesture-based flying conceptual graphics making sounds to... well something I can relate to like BM3.
I now frequently travel from the Caribbean where I have much space to London where I have very little space, so production on iPad is convenient. However, iPads lose their smoothness and become obsolete really fast and I'm not gonna buy a new iPad every 2-4 years, especially when my MBP and Ableton Live does so much more, faster, and more efficient still after 5 years.
So after 3 years of gravitating towards iOS, it's really MF great, and synths are cheap, but I rather use my iPad as an external module via StudioMux, and thus get a MonoPoly, a Model 15, or whatever magic I can make with Gadget, Zeeon and Mood for bloody cheap. Hook my iPad up to Live with my APC keys and either MiniLab or LaunchControl, and I have all the power and possibilities with the best of both worlds.
I built out based on what I had on hand, MacBook Pro, PC, and iPad. I don’t record on the iPad unless I’m out of the studio. Otherwise I send The Audio all back to Live on the Mac. Pc I use for storage, and additional processor juice. Studiomux does the iOS routing, and Dante between the Mac and PC, and Loopback for mashing Audio together from diff sources.
I haven’t found a desktop drum synth I like better than ED and DD, as example. But mostly it’s price, touch aspects, and unique apps keeps me on iOS.
Love nothing more than to move it to web-midi and audio tho...
In my opinion when Jobs introduced the “Post-pc era” concept he was talking about something bigger than just substitute the regular computer with an iPad. Apple tried to sell them as a replacement but not for everyone (the truck hiperbole) and as days gone it seems near.
VR and angry Mac Pro users had making this a bit less soft transition for our “market segment” but common people who that statement was pointed (and brings more revenue for Apple) had made it a fact. Just look at iPhone sales year by year.
So related to the topic, Apple started time ago to migrate “Pro” tools into step up from “prosumer” tools (Logic X, Final Cut... rebuild from less to more) all pointing to merging but from prosumer to professional more than opposite.
Apps like Ableton, Maschine/Traktor, etc... continue growing alongside OSX which is implementing iOS features more and more in addition to Pro features for the high demanding users. Also charging a Pro price like iMac pro or Mac Pro Vader model.
Since I’m more a prosumer than a professional I sold my Mac mini and bought an iPad mini4 and left all the “professional” tools with pro prices and pro gear and started playing with the prosumer toys in my segment. Due Apple seems to take less and less care about small iDevices I’m wondering buy old groovebox/workstation at prosumer prices (under 400€) to complement my iPad the day I decide to stop f###ing updates.
How many of you have a pro labeled Apple computer and take professional profit from it?
I doubt that iDevices will enter the "pro" realm soon.
It's not the hardware.
Recent iPads are very powerful devices with a great touch surface and quality build.
If iOS was a more open operating system then there would be a chance to get close to the MacOS we got used to in the past years.
Unfortunately this does not seem to happen. Apple sells ipads for the price of MacBooks, but in 2017, they still cannot replace them completely, only for selected tasks.
It's much more the OS and what it means for developers to actually develop apps for iOS.
First, iOS is turning into a more and more restricted closed box that makes it hard to access your own data freely. This might be great security-wise on an iPhone, but it's counter-productive in a modern musician's set-up.
Second, Apple makes it harder for newbies to even toy around and try developing new apps - without paying, all you get is a dev certificate that is valid for 7, I repeat, seven days, and you cannot even use it on more than 3 iDevices. Even if all you want is to develop an app for your own use, in fact you can't do that realistically without paying $99 every year.
How many potentially fantastic young programmers are turned off by this and will start developing on another platform? Too many I would say, judging from the ratio of high-quality vs low-quality apps on the app store. If I was to write down a list of devs that have built "pro-level" apps for iOS, the list would not be very long.
Third, Apple loves to change standards faster than many developers feel like following, effectively leading to inconsistent mixes of iOS and app versions forcing the users to decide between
A: Updating to the latest iOS versions to be able to run the latest stuff that developers have decided (or been forced) to run on the latest iOS version only
B: Sticking to an older iOS version to make sure you can continue to use your apps.
Is there an alternative if you like to use touch devices?
Well, there might be, like using a desktop machine plus a good large touchscreen lcd monitor, but portable? I don't tink so.
The Microsoft surface would run top notch audio apps well, but there you'll face the new problem that most Windows apps are not written for touch devices and more fiddly to use than you're usually willing to accept.
What would the world look like if you didn't have this question/problem ?
As long as you are making 'conventional' popular music, then the core is the beat and the chord progression.
Get a Circuit to be your beats and chords and bass and then use your iPads to complement it (remember you don't HAVE to use circuits internal synths you can sequence external stuff like apps too), use one as a noisemaker/controller for those apps that you love, and the other as a daw.
Commit your time to learning the circuit and its workflow.....
You can then change your computer platform whenever you like, and because you have circuit, will not need to completely re-learn your workflow when you do.
Idk if it was pointed to me @AndyPlankton but yes a circuit being a groovebox could fit my approach. Said that I prefer Mc909
iOS is my portable sketchpad for when I can't be arsed carrying around my laptop or my desktop.
Ableton+max4live+vsts+VCVrack+ iOS apps (via Ica4+) is my bread and butter. I really don't understand this VS business lol. Specially because thanks to the Ica4+ you can multitrack upto 16 channels towards the PC with minimal latency plus use all the goodies like fuguemachine etc via virtual midi ports....
No not directed at you personally Mr Dubby, you have already had the lightbulb moment on this I think
.....advice for everyone.....get your core music making requirement and workflow onto a device(s) that
1. Works and is stable
2. Is easy to use
3. Doesn't cost you $,000's to keep updated
4. Fits easily into the changing landscape round it
For some this will be a groovebox for others a keyboard workstation.....others will ignore this and stay in the world of upgrades, updates and obsolescence...
Circuit was my own personal liberator
Well I believed iPad was the same group but lately Apple movements made me reconsider even buy an old Mac mini just for Traktor/Ableton/Mainstage (but nothing else running on them) like I do with old iPhones (Alchemy or Loopy or Bismark...) so that’s my better advice, mate
Well many people, especially older who never got into daily computer use prefer a tablet over laptop or desktop pc.
I recently got an mpc5000 to be used with ipad and i think it works great. Other mpcs with jjos would also work nicely. And ofc other similar sequencer/samplers. Most of the time i use aum as a mixer, midi router and also host instruments(usually i sample instruments on mpc tho) and fxs for external synths. I also use bm3 for more advancer sampler, more detailed midi editing(that i then record to mpc) and for scale mode pads at times. As well as some various other apps, like lemur for easier access to my synths parameters + xy pads etc. Ipad also works as a great sample source for drums and other 1shots. Ruismaker is so easy to make drums with that it usually takes more time to find as good sample from a large library. I run external gear through audio interface to ipad and then to mpc via digital coaxial.
Most people i know using Android phones and cheap windows notebooks (i see a lot 2-1 these days).
But they have no interest in creating music anyway.
Also childs but I feel it was easier at skeumorfism era (before iOS7). Anyways easier by far than windows/android. I teached my mother (77 years old) to use iPad 3 and lately Android phone.
Also teached non musical geek people to use AudioShare as hand recorder or Linux geeks where Remixlive came from
But my question about “Apple Pro” and “professional revenue profit from it” it’s to point about how costumer segment definition had changed from Apple meanwhile these costumers still see themselves in the same category. By far I could get a macbook back in the day but hardly I can afford any new nowadays...
Yeah. I really would love a new Macbook Pro right now but the costs are insane....but still i´m sure i will get the next generation since i think i will get much more value from it comapared to a 1000 dollar iPad i might not use so much and is "old" in 2-3 years.
My macbook from 2013 handles still so much more than the latest iPad Pro´s could do.
Yes that’s what I wanted to say with “later Apple movements”. It’s more worthy to buy an old late 2012 i7mac mini and upgrade it than iPad pro or macbook pro newer model.