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Developers: Why have so many Apps on iOS no decent controls?

13

Comments

  • wimwim
    edited May 2018

    I was flicking around like crazy in iMS-20 last night trying to get the hang of this magic gesture. I achieved small increments about 1 try out of 50, and random frustration the rest. Is iMS-20 not blessed with this feature, or is there a trick to it I’m not getting?

  • edited May 2018

    @wim said:
    I was flicking around like crazy in iMS-20 last night trying to get the hang of this magic gesture. I achieved small increments about 1 try out of 50, and random frustration the rest. Is iMS-20 not blessed with this feature, or is there a trick to it I’m not getting?

    I’ve never tried it, I’ll have to investigate later, sounds more miss than hit though.

    @ChrisG said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @Samu said:
    when the value slightly changes when lifting up the finger...

    Lol, there are a few that do that, and as they have no other means of entering the value, it can take ages to get it right.

    The iMS20 would get much more use from me if the knobs weren’t so bad to use. For example, say the filter cutoff is on 5, and I want to dial it up to 7 - slight adjustment - when I touch it, it flips back to zero first. Madness.

    I’m another slider fan. It’s just an easier manoeuvre, and usually more accurate as a result.

    Use Korgs flick gesture and you’ll be good to go. It’s the best gesture anyone have come up with so far to quickly deal with detailed parameters changes on a touch screen.

    Thanks Chris, didn’t know about it so will give it a go.

  • Flick gestures on iMS-20 will result in increments of .10 in a given value for a knob, @wim. Just tested it and it works every time.

  • @theconnactic said:
    Flick gestures on iMS-20 will result in increments of .10 in a given value for a knob, @wim. Just tested it and it works every time.

    I’m just severely flick challenged then. Must be missing something. Not worth the bother. I’ll never feel the need to be that precise.

  • Disclaimer
    I’m very dissappointed user with latest iOS11 glitches (I even restore the iPad and BM3 become a cracklefest) so take my opinion like smoking paper.

    I don’t find iDevices suitable for realtime music making so it includes satisfactory user experience fiddling with control surfaces. Using external controll helps sometimes, non-classical control elements helps sometimes too but in the long shot I find iOS just usable for few musical tasks and jump from these into other platform (true computer or standalone hardware) where you can do all the automation (sic) and fine tweaking...

    Sad I know but all this wheel reinventing just consume time for music making (almost in my case) and this includes midi programming. @AmpifyxNovation apps with direct (propietary) hardware mapping were a wonderful promise (and maybe a path to follow if they work on bigger iPads like pro and so) but in the end it doesn’t worth the money and effort. My gut says that’s the reason behind no Ableton for iPad, it’s not going to work properly”

    It could be sound hate but it isn’t (I recheck my feeling before write this). It’s frustration being healed by standalone hardware enjoyment and perspective. I have for the first time in my live some ready tracks to share but I must to drop the necessity to do all in my own, so I hire someone to take my “Ableton projects” from Blocs and mix them in their Ableton centric studio. Winwin and best money expent in my whole life...

    Jm2c.

  • @wim said:

    @theconnactic said:
    Flick gestures on iMS-20 will result in increments of .10 in a given value for a knob, @wim. Just tested it and it works every time.

    I’m just severely flick challenged then. Must be missing something. Not worth the bother. I’ll never feel the need to be that precise.

    Get your finger moving before you touch the screen....flick down onto the control if you like.

  • @AndyPlankton said:

    @wim said:

    @theconnactic said:
    Flick gestures on iMS-20 will result in increments of .10 in a given value for a knob, @wim. Just tested it and it works every time.

    I’m just severely flick challenged then. Must be missing something. Not worth the bother. I’ll never feel the need to be that precise.

    Get your finger moving before you touch the screen....flick down onto the control if you like.

    Cheers Andy, that worked for me.

    Thing is though, I don’t usually want to move a knob that slowly. For example a nice gentle sweep with the cutoff filter, doesn’t really work with lots of little flicks, and the silly thing jumps about when I try and do that.

    I think my issue with all this is the lack of consistency or a standard for this type of control. The iMS20 annoys me in particular, as I don’t have the ‘jumping about’ issue with their iPolysix - the knobs are fine in that one. So there’s a lack of consistency even within the same company.

    Annoying because I’d really like to use the iMS20, since I grew up with the hardware version.

  • @MonzoPro said:

    @AndyPlankton said:

    @wim said:

    @theconnactic said:
    Flick gestures on iMS-20 will result in increments of .10 in a given value for a knob, @wim. Just tested it and it works every time.

    I’m just severely flick challenged then. Must be missing something. Not worth the bother. I’ll never feel the need to be that precise.

    Get your finger moving before you touch the screen....flick down onto the control if you like.

    Cheers Andy, that worked for me.

    Thing is though, I don’t usually want to move a knob that slowly. For example a nice gentle sweep with the cutoff filter, doesn’t really work with lots of little flicks, and the silly thing jumps about when I try and do that.

    I think my issue with all this is the lack of consistency or a standard for this type of control. The iMS20 annoys me in particular, as I don’t have the ‘jumping about’ issue with their iPolysix - the knobs are fine in that one. So there’s a lack of consistency even within the same company.

    Annoying because I’d really like to use the iMS20, since I grew up with the hardware version.

    I have an MS-20ic not doing much, it is brilliant with iMS-20, I seldom use it though.....I could be tempted to part with it for the right price ;)

  • edited May 2018

    @u0421793 said:
    It took me nearly two weeks to adjust a parameter in Gadget, some time ago (five days, then I took the weekend off as I don’t work weekends, then started again on Monday and didn’t get it where it should be until about weds or thurs, I can’t remember which, but it was in the evening).

    Gadget has a unique feature for its controls where if you quickly ‘flick’ your finger up (or down) over the control, it increases/decreases by a single minimum unit.

    Ok, see ‘flick gesture’ was already mentioned above. I was reading page 1 of thread when answering. :)

  • @AndyPlankton said:

    @MonzoPro said:

    @AndyPlankton said:

    @wim said:

    @theconnactic said:
    Flick gestures on iMS-20 will result in increments of .10 in a given value for a knob, @wim. Just tested it and it works every time.

    I’m just severely flick challenged then. Must be missing something. Not worth the bother. I’ll never feel the need to be that precise.

    Get your finger moving before you touch the screen....flick down onto the control if you like.

    Cheers Andy, that worked for me.

    Thing is though, I don’t usually want to move a knob that slowly. For example a nice gentle sweep with the cutoff filter, doesn’t really work with lots of little flicks, and the silly thing jumps about when I try and do that.

    I think my issue with all this is the lack of consistency or a standard for this type of control. The iMS20 annoys me in particular, as I don’t have the ‘jumping about’ issue with their iPolysix - the knobs are fine in that one. So there’s a lack of consistency even within the same company.

    Annoying because I’d really like to use the iMS20, since I grew up with the hardware version.

    I have an MS-20ic not doing much, it is brilliant with iMS-20, I seldom use it though.....I could be tempted to part with it for the right price ;)

    Nah you’re ok, I’ve got an original MS20 on the desk next to me here 😀

  • edited May 2018

    This “flick gesture” that I’d never heard of either is probably also the reason why SLIDING the controls in Korg Gadget is so incredibly fiddly? They fail to distinguish between “flick” and “slide” reliably...

    On the whole, this seems to be another typical case of what I call “gesture overload”. But Apple pioneered that in the Photos app, where you now have to swipe through your photos with a ruler, otherwise you randomly get thrown back into the overview or on some strange “Details” screen nobody cares about ;) (“now” = since iOS 6 or so. Time flies when you’re old ;) )

  • @Dubbylabby said:
    I don’t find iDevices suitable for realtime music making so it includes satisfactory user experience fiddling with control surfaces. Using external controll helps sometimes, non-classical control elements helps sometimes too but in the long shot I find iOS just usable for few musical tasks and jump from these into other platform (true computer or standalone hardware) where you can do all the automation (sic) and fine tweaking...

    I partly agree and disagree. Realtime music and automation are contradictory items.
    TC-Data's approach completely drove me away from hardware dials - for the simple fact you can't manage neither scaling nor mixture of parameters in hardware.
    One of my first checks was the Access Virus in Pro Tools (which has extensive automation support). The synth came out so much more 'lively', simply stunning.
    There is a (learning) curve, quite steep in the beginning, but imho it's worth the effort.
    You can tune the interaction to your very personal (virtual) feel.

    On the other hand there's Zeeon with it's phantastic tone (humbles the Virus hands down).
    BUT the control scaling is plain horror. The synth has such a variance of reaction to certain parameters, that a smooth continous movement is often almost impossible.
    Haven't found the time yet, but I'm convinced a mapping to TC-Data will give it some serious push forward.
    I don't blame the developer in any way. It would be such a huge effort, there isn't much screen estate and user taste varies anyway.

    My preferred approach would be to control (more demanding) synths from a 2nd or even 3rd iPad. A used iPad2 and an old ioDock can be found for roughly 100bucks.
    Sound quality in many IOS synths is more than good enough to justify the expense.

    Still I appreciate the idea (to inform developers about user experience) a lot.
    Beneath pure layout/design aspects, dynamic scaling of (dial) parameters may also contribute to the overall usability.
    Dynamic (in this context) means certain parameters influence the scaling of other ones, taking Zeeon as an example if you modify the filter type, the reaction of the frequency/resonance parameters is adjusted internally. May become a two-sided sword though... too much will result in quite strange reaction, but the right dose improves a lot.

  • edited May 2018

    I wasn’t saying realtime = automation...
    I was pointing towards some lacks and how those make iDevices too much other platforms dependent.
    So for realtime OR automation it makes a must to have another platform being standalone hardware in the first and computer in the second to end projects.
    All due performance and poor UX design/cappabilities.

    As sound module/sampler is great but then just plug a controller in the peacefully environment of our bedrooms and don’t worry about fiddling or crackle.

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  • edited May 2018

    Many uf us have or should have some kind of screen protector on our devices. I've found that the very thin semi rough surface provides a much better touch response than the thick tempered glass coverings. It also doesn't show all those distracting fingerprints. Maybe OT but it's one of those weird hacks that does have an impact.

  • @SpookyZoo said:

    @u0421793 said:
    It took me nearly two weeks to adjust a parameter in Gadget, some time ago (five days, then I took the weekend off as I don’t work weekends, then started again on Monday and didn’t get it where it should be until about weds or thurs, I can’t remember which, but it was in the evening).

    Gadget has a unique feature for its controls where if you quickly ‘flick’ your finger up (or down) over the control, it increases/decreases by a single minimum unit.

    Ok, see ‘flick gesture’ was already mentioned above. I was reading page 1 of thread when answering. :)

    I’ve never seen anything on or near the gadget knobs or sliders that suggests that there’s such an affordance.

  • @SevenSystems said:
    This “flick gesture” that I’d never heard of either is probably also the reason why SLIDING the controls in Korg Gadget is so incredibly fiddly? They fail to distinguish between “flick” and “slide” reliably...

    On the whole, this seems to be another typical case of what I call “gesture overload”. But Apple pioneered that in the Photos app, where you now have to swipe through your photos with a ruler, otherwise you randomly get thrown back into the overview or on some strange “Details” screen nobody cares about ;) (“now” = since iOS 6 or so. Time flies when you’re old ;) )

    The flick also gets confused with the double tap which makes the gadget go full screen. I do believe Korg are aware of this problem and could fix that if the did something about the timing of the flcks and taps. Don't know if we can do anything about the slides or swipes unfortunately.

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  • edited May 2018

    Groove Rider has a neat fine tune. Hold down the shift key while rotating the knob and you get finer control.

    Personally I would love to see more apps use function keys like this. I can imagine a DAW with two or three thumb buttons on the left side. Oh what the hell, call em ‘alt’, ‘ctrl’ and ‘shift’. :)

  • I do my best learning when things are as frustrating as heck :D

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  • edited May 2018

    @tja said:

    @AudioGus said:
    Groove Rider has a neat fine tune. Hold down the shift key while rotating the knob and you get finer control.

    Personally I would love to see more apps use function keys like this. I can imagine a DAW with two or three thumb buttons on the left side. Oh what the hell, call em ‘alt’, ‘ctrl’ and ‘shift’. :)

    Yep, i tested this and it works great!

    But is it realy needed for any and all apps to have some modifier button?

    Certainly not ‘any and all’. I am not saying all of the old paradigms work, as clearly the current state of iOS Daws show plenty of room for new evolution but I personaly would love to try my hand at some of these concepts.

    Also, i still think that the distance approach of procreate would help.

    The color picker button on the left side of the screen In Procreate was a bit of feedback I gave the devs that they said they would consider, which is now there. Esentially it mimicks the ‘alt’ key in photoshop. In my mind a DAW could have a row of these on the side. Examples, 1.) axis constrain 2.) slicer 3.)selecter 4.) pencil for automation etc. Hold it down and the function of your finger transforms. To me the whole app could be based on these ‘what is my finger now’ modifiers and be bloody fast to use.

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  • @tja, our UI library is not compatible with Swift / Cocoa touch, but it's very modular and tweakable, so it would be easy enough to get similar results to the code you've linked to. The slider module is used in several of our apps so improving it always has good return on investment, so there's always hope improvements might sneak in! :)

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  • Wim, I think I get it: Movement does not have to equal representation. You could highlight a parameter and have a straight line movement anywhere on the screen that could adjust it by direction, length on sensitivity. Well, maybe I don't get it after all...
    but maybe the ultimate answer is in the inverse: Representation does have to equal movement. I am a dreamer by nature, but there is so much voice recognition software available, could that not be adapted in time to iOS. Jeez, my iPad keeps wanting me to dictate to it!

  • @tja, not necessarily, no... Xequence is 99% cross-platform and most of it runs on anything from a toaster to a spaceship :)

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