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IOS AND CLASSICAL MUSIC/ making the impossible possible
After posting a pretty classically sounding piece of music here I decided to take a gander at a classical music forum. While it makes sense that classical music is underrepresented here on Audiobus.us ( I think @kuhl may be the only truly legit practitioner and he's a rocker in his heart) it makes sense, as well, that it needn't be. Plenty of people mess with classical music making on desktop, so why not iOS?
Well, I plan to make a little exploration, but from the getgo it seems a little uncomfortable. Audiob.us is my first forum experience so the classical forum I registered on is pretty eye opening! Firstly, the design. Totally unfriendly compared to Audiobus.us' open and welcoming format, with its colorful icons
( mine wears glasses. How did it know that?) and easily managed layout. The classical site is just that, classic, , like so many others I have seen. Tight little horizontal lines, lots of info crammed in small spaces and non intuitive navigation. Altogether uninviting for my tastes. Kudos to @Michael once again for designing a forum so inviting, open aired and easy to understand. I especially missed the @handle ( not Handel) way of communicating mentions that @Michael came up with. This other site definitely does not feel warm and cozy!
It's serious business!
And I was pretty amazed at the rule based society. You need to make ten posts to even access the whole site or make an attachment. But classical music is rule bound and perfectionistic to begin with. It sort of makes sense that the pros and regulars among them might have sway as to the structure.
As to the populace, it was easy to see a cast of regulars like we have, but it only took a few minutes to be on a thread where the backbiting, condescension and arrogance was going at full tilt with seemingly long held fueds and rivalries. You think we have an occasional dustup here? We are a bunch of compassionate pussies! I must, in all fairness, note that there are many threads where people sound fair, welcoming, funny and generous with their knowledge.
One in particular started by a budding fifteen year old classical composer who offered his work for critiquing. The responses were positive, encouraging and the more pointed ones blunt and fair, presenting a true desire to educate.
But maybe there is the rub. The feeling of the knowledgeable compared to the less so is palpable. My jazz teacher always maintained we were exploring music together when I called her my teacher. We were both students, both learning (patently ridiculous but loving nonetheless). It is the same feeling here on Audiobus.us. The teaching is so friendly and egalitarian that one does not feel the vast divide of knowing and not knowing.
Over there, with the serious guys, it is more like a university. You can learn, but be aware who is the student and who is the teacher. Of course these are generalizations and a biased perspective on my, rebellious iconoclastic part.
I plan to continue there because I feel it is important, especially for young composers on the site to know about the capabilities and affordability of iOS music production. I will post my Synthony as an example, but fully expect withering criticism from the "experts" as opposed to the loving embrace I have received here. Still, if I can woo a few classical guys or gals to composing on the iOS platform and perhaps, this laudable forum, it will be worth it. We can use the diversity. Classical music is certainly worthy of our attention and I think, whatever the value of my own music, I have proven to myself that iOS makes a respectable classical noise. I welcome your observations on this subject!
Comments
It´s of course possible... within the limitations of the iOS instruments and FX which are important like a really good reverberation.
It´s really hard to build non synthetic sounding orchestrial parts with iOS. While there are a few nice apps they all lack more editing, dynamics, mic settings and articulations.
F.e. as nice as iSymphonic can sound it begin to sound very static fast and you mostly have to choose a pre made orchestra with not much dynamics and it also lacks other important parts for me.
So i would say it´s of course possible but it´s still far far away from what you can do with Kontakt libraries and other stuff.
But in some years that might be better. Just my 2 cents. While i don´t do much classical compositions i really often use classical elements and/or orchestra sounds in all kind of genres from electronic to cinematic landscapes.
I´ve done that from the beginning of iOS with things like ThumbJam but that is indeed the part where iOS is lightyears behind.
It´s simple as that. A talent can make it sound great on iOS as well but will achieve much much better and realistic results elsewhere.
I agree with your comments @Cib. Desktop and libraries like Kontakt has are better, but for a young composer the cost may be out of reach. Even SymphonyPro, the notation tool, has an instrument library, so for $15 and an old iPad you can hear your orchestral dreams realized on a basic level. Also, making music on an iPad is more fun, in my opinion. Sitting with a mouse seems almost archaic at this point. a poster here recently lamented recording a guitar into a pc and the twisting and regular mousings that were so interruptive compared to using a tablet. As to the instruments, the RC275 piano is as satisfying to me as the Steinway B I just sold. And that's without a sustain pedal and on a Casio keyboard! The double bass staccato from Beathawk I used in my recent piece was perfect and my ears were happy. Maybe I am just not very choosy. Many instruments available on iOS seem quite acceptable and in the case of a piano, say, preferable to many second rate acoustic grands.
But Honestly, i don't know having never used desktop. But I know this.... I never will. If I can't make great music on an iPad, I don't think a desktop rig would make it any more possible. But I surely agree that an instrument like the Joshua Bell violin from NI is vastly superior to ISymphonic or any other iOS sample.
Thanks for contributing!
That might be true as well
But there are also some great free tools like the latest Spitfire Labs instruments which are limited but still better than most things on iOS for this genre.
As example i stumbled over this guy on soundcloud and it´s stunning what he achieve out of software.
@LinearLineman
I’ve found that the sort of environment you’ve encountered is the norm on a vast majority of forums, and that it has been since the early days of BBSs before the term World Wide Web have even been coined. People of a certain sort have found the forum a platform behave in ways that would never fly face to face. As a guy that’s participated in boards for 30 years, this one here’s community is a complete standout - the closest being the Amiga Musician’s forums way back in the day.
My suggestion would be to keep looking. There must be other boards based on classical music, and probably some founded by untrained folks that want to expand their horizons rather than continue 400 year old arguments.
Just as an aside -
I grew up with a lot of classical music in the house. I could never get passed the clinical-ness of what heard... but once I got into rock, it was bands like Yes I was drawn to, where there was passion in that complexity. But when I saw the film Amadeus - aside from the story - it was the way the creative team arrangened and executed the music. It had a sense that the musicians playing it had never heard anything like this before, that they knew it was so far out of bounds - and Mozart finally made sense to me. I realized that somehow over the centuries it seemed that all the study of this music, for me at least, had stolen its meaning.... and though it may not be a popular impression, I often feel this when I listen to Wynton - that his arrangements feel so clinical. That the wildness of Parker or Monk is missing....
Anyways - just keep looking.... I’m sure somewhere out there more kindred spirits congregate.
CAN I RAMBLE A BIT ON THIS TOPIC.
I've rebelled against the incestious classical music world for 50 years. Starting as a College Music Major that found the curriculum too confining and without a deep passion for the potential of sound and creative expression.
To get validation for your IOS Synthony I think you might need to look for musicians that value improvisation or art music.
The Classical musician is typically extremely focused on the works of the masters and less so on anything created in their lifetime. The historical details and acoustic instruments that have been developed and perfected for that genre is deep and you can spend your life there.
I expect them to be dismissive and critical of your efforts. But I do think it's admirable you'd like to encourage them to evaluate the tools we love here... an iPad, a portable keyboard and some headphones can let you play Brahms on the beach to the accompaniment of seagulls. (Man of those folks rarely get out).
You, my friend, are stardust... you are golden... and you've got to get yourself back to the garden. This is the garden. Go... evangelize but return here to lick your wounds. Go and try to teach your lessons from the work you've done here combined with the work you've put in understanding music improvisation which is NOT a path typically taken by a classicist (your teacher is an outstanding exception).
Expect some pain (or at least confusion) confronting a type of righteous ignorance. The best approach is to go in asking questions rather than telling them how to do something.
A Classical Mind will compare your work to the library of the classics: if it copies, it's derivative. If it stray too far from convention it might be amateurish. In the end... use your internal critic and decide if YOU like the piece and think it's unique.
Dear @Cib, thanks for sharing that piece. No question the violin was superior. The piano, to my ears was not, but progress is being made on all platforms, I think. Please check out this amazing violin. The end might be in sight for virtual instruments on desktop. Ios could easily follow along.
@wigglelights, thanks for your perspective. I realize I am terribly spoiled by the camraderie of this forum.
@McDtracy thanks for caring about my overseas adventures. I intend to ask questions, the first being, does anyone here use an iPad to compose? I am pretty experienced in rejection, both getting and giving. As a respected art rep, I rejected at least one illustrator's work per day! They can't all be money makers after all. My own experience of rejection was pretty global, including being damned with faint praise. I don't consider myself a classical musician and don't pretend to be a traditional composer in any genre. In tai chi if you are not there they can't hit you. You, know I looked up composing competitions. None were even open to anyone over forty! Or thirty! What is that about? I spent my twenties on the upper west side of Manhattan. The place was crawling with Juilliard grads whose careers were on the ascent. They were all generous and fun loving towards me and my music. As you said, " righteous ignorance. Anyway, I will deny any legitimate claim to being a "real composer" if someone wants to argue with that, let them!
A bit off topic but what I always find interesting is if you fully understand the art of composing music you only need a pen and paper to writing the most incredible pieces and no need for more RAM or extra disk space. iOS has some lovely composing software now, I wonder how many young classical composers use iOS?
@[Deleted User]. Absolutely right. That is something @kuhl can do marvelously. Not me and I certainly make no claim to understanding the art of composing. So I need the RAM! But the reason I wrote this thread in the first place is my experience on a classical forum where I want to ask your exact question: how many young composers use ios?
But frankly, I went back to that forum again and I am shocked, though I should not be, at the verbal masterbation going on.
The type of high handed and, to my mind, pointless vivisection of ideas I thought I had left behind in college. An intellectual pissing contest where everyone gets doused and nothing is resolved because it is unresolvable. Geez. Maybe Kauldron is better than Thor.
Not sure if I can withstand more gamma rays in order to find out if iOS is used. Anyone got an extra hazmat suit?
Man, I was on the Amiga music scene from 87-92. Sonix, Deluxe Music CS, Dr. T KCS & the Copyist.
And all the smashing trackers. Cool times with Paula.
Glad you finally made sense of Mozart. May I suggest Maynard Solomon’s biography. It’s good.
Nothing is better than Thor. Why can’t everyone just accept that 😂
I’ve been writing all weekend. Things are beginning to take shape of the second movement of my Streichquartett.
But after writing about 12 bars x 4 I noticed something was awfully wrong. I’d written it i e-minor instead of a-minor as I had planned. I didn’t even transpose it. I deleted the file and began over. Now it’s much better.
The viola & cello are making love on top of a coffin as two beautiful violin angels descends from the heavens... and takes us into C major. This will be beautiful.
Nice piece.
This is great news @kuhl. I am not the only one awaiting your next movement. You have a lot of fans here, I suspect. And Thor is best , of course. He is a Norseman after all.
Only Thor (TOR) can lift his hammer 🔨
Well that’s nice to hear. I’m working. Writing in Notion this time. My first project from scratch in Notion.
The workflow is ok I guess, but a still bit strange for me. Writing was ok, until the moment after 12 bars when I had to correct. At that moment I was clueless 😂 had to look in the manual, but decided that was for newbies, so I started over from scratch haha 🤣
Back 2 work
I’ve written 55 measures already tonight, I’m on a flow
am I manic depressive?
The Apple Pencil makes workflow like I’m Frank Lloyd Wright on a spree with Thor’s Hammer.
My wife has hushed on me twice already for testing with sound.... I don’t dare to do it again haha
Headlines: 📝 Norseman stabbed with Apple device by angry sleep-deprived wife. Blames AudioBus Forum 😝
You don’t wake a Korean girl from her dreams and get away with it... so I’ll travel far away on white Vatican smoke.
Now, I’d like to see where Urbans cannon breached the walls of Constantinople & where Mehmets jannisaries stormed in and wounded Giustiani and killed Konstantine. 🚣♂️ ⚔️ 🐎 😴
I’ll share my experience with making classical/game/film music. Never meant to make a living from it just enjoy and maybe someone would like what I made or even use it in something?!?
I started on iOS with Auria Pro trying to work with Lyra sampler with Sonatina Symphonic or other free orchestra libraries I could find. Unfortunately there were some bugs in Lyra that did not make that possible. So I tried PC.
Loaded same libraries using Plogue Sforzando and Tracktion 6. There was a lot of technical setup challenges on the PC. But PC died and went back to iPad.
I found some posts here from Music Inclusive and he usd Notion. So I purchased it and scored some film/game type music that was in my head.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Fanfare_to_the_King_(McMillan%2C_Jonathan_Michael)
It took so long! Even exported the audio from Notion and made a mix in Auria using its built in Convo reverb. Not too bad! But it was a lot of work.
A friendly music forum I found along the way was Scoring Central started by Mattias Westlund. It’s a virtual Orchestration forum for PC/MAC, no iOS. Lots to learn there.
So I’m dabbling in electronic music now but want to return to classical/film/game music. I hope iOS gets more sounds/apps that can employ mod wheel expression and other tools for more realistic performances.
Hello, I haven't posted very much in this forum, but I'm a long time reader. I started creating iOS music in Korg Gadget about a year ago, then in Auria Pro which turned out to be quite a headache because of some weird midi bug, and then Cubasis. I've also just recently composed a couple pieces in Garageband which is surprisingly great for soundtrack type music with the strings, wind instruments and Alchemy synth.
This piece here in the link below is probably the most complex one I've ever written. It was created in Cubasis, and I used audio units from iSymphonic, Sampletank/Miroslav, BeatHawk, and BS16i/squidfont orchestral soundfont. I only worked on one instrument at a time, writing a few measures and then freezing it audio before moving onto another instrument to avoid bugs and crashes. It's a very tedious process, but it works. I've never posted any of my works here because I wasn't sure there was much interest for this genre. Please let me know what you think
Nice piece. Well done.
@ScottVanZandt
Stunning work, beautiful!🎶🎶🎶👍👍👍
So good! You have much to teach us about using sampled instruments to great effect. It sounds very labor intensive but the results speak for themselves. It's very hard to put this music into an "IOS Genre" cage... it's big and just draws you into it's world.
Thank you for sharing.
@Virsyn has created an AUv3 sampler (AudioLayer) that can load layered instruments. Loading open sample formats like SF2 is on the roadmap. Hopefully, it can extend the value of SF2 and SFZ soundfonts for another round of innovation in IOS.
Are you following the thread around that App's release? It's groundbreaking for film music style composing though it does appear you've got a process down by using small audio recording stages to build large works.
Nicely done Scott! You’ve really got a lot out of the various iPad sounds. I noticed some brass swells in there too which are tough to do on iOS without instruments that have cross faded velocity layers.
I kind of gave up using iOS for this kind of music due to time constraints and expression constraints. However your piece and others on your SC sound really good.
Great use of percussion, Scott. The intensive labor shows in the result. Yes, there is plenty of room for this type of music here, just need some more contributors like yourself! Check out @kuhl on SoundCloud if you haven't heard his music. He is about to come out with the second movement of a string quartet. And, please listen to my piece posted under 1st iOS Synthony.... I don't have the production chops you have, it is not a true symphonic form and I improvised it all but, it is quasi classical and has drawn a bunch of views, so yes, these genres are not as prevalent as they might be, but people are interested. You can help improve that by posting stuff and sharing your knowledge. And, as @chandroji said on my thread, it shows the iOS skeptics what can really be done on the platform. Thanks for sharing!
I think everything can be made on iOS, the platform has no limits but limitations, it’s just a tool and the musician can use it to do anything IMO. Deep editing is perhaps more challenging with touchscreen than with a mouse, some DAW features like atypical time signature can lacks, but hardware is pretty capable and basically sound produced don’t lacks anything for most musical genres. It’s also true some desktop VST-i are still better sounding, because of different sampling techniques and very large soundbanks. For example, Spectrasonic Trillian acoustic bass is a crazy thing, nothing comes closer on iOS. Perhaps IKM will do Modo iOS? Same thing with classical instruments where articulations are so important for realism. New AudioLayer app will perhaps change the game with its round robin and key release layers capabilities, but it’s labour intensive to make our own instruments, so let’s hope some iaps and presets sharing will be done. Also, in many case, a good mixing can helps, but I think it’s so much more difficult with classical music where articulations are so much audible.
But I really think we shouldn’t always search for iOS ultimate « proof ». It is as capable as desktop counterpart, this is truly a great and refreshing platform for music making
Thanks for the feedback everyone! I wasn't expecting that
I will definitely check out y'all's works and try to participate more in this forum as us classical nerds are somewhat of a minority here.
Here's one more piece I did, another 'biggun' and it was done completely in Korg Gadget using a mixture of the KAPro Orchestra Dreams's pack and various other synth gadgets. I was super excited when that pack came out, and it's so much funner to compose with live plugins and not have to spend so much time freezing and unfreezing tracks. The multi-layered Staccato Orchestra patches were especially useful.
Hey Scott, post both of these on Creations if you would be so kind. That way more people will have a chance to hear them and also spread interest in the genre.
Yes, people are very surprised by the warm welcome here when they take a chance and post something. I have been visiting a classical forum, as I mentioned earlier and there is no comparison! This is a wonderful place. If you become an active member you can help a lot of people here with what you know.
Another beautiful piece! Our styles are really different. All my earlier posts a jazz based. So this classical stuff was a new adventure for me. But people have been very kind, a couple hundred plus listens on SoundCloud and almost 700 views.
Curious as to your take on it.
Very nice pieces here. The only thing i would say it lacks is indeed the more immersive feeling i want from orchestra and /or other huge cinematic sounds.
It is great but i think it would sounds still much better with better tools and especially FX.
No more lack of dynamics, more natural swells, textures is what i would love for iOS. I love all those really subtle things going on. But maybe many people don´t care about it.
Hard to explain but on iOS a lot things still sounds a bit more hollow, lacks real depth and that 3 dimensional feeling.
From a composition point these tracks are wonderful. I hope that sounds not too negative. I´m just a junkie for really immersive sounds with lots of subtle details you might hear just with several listenings.
Here is a piece I wrote on my iPad - 4 years ago (before the days of iSymphonic etc.
) This starts with a bit of mellotron woodwind from Thumbjam but the rest is Bismark bs-16i recorded via Audiobus into Cubasis. I have learned a lot more about mixing since then but I post it as an early example of iOS being used to compose orchestral music with what was available back then.
Thanks for listening and your feedback
I completely understand what you mean about the immersive feeling missing. We don't have those orchestral mic positioning options like in the fancy Kontakt liberaries (which I've never used, but I've watched videos on - I haven't written music on a PC in over 12 years smh...). I've seen this IOS plugin called VirtualRoom Pro. I wonder, if I exported stems from Gadget into Cubasis, and then used that Audio unit to put the instruments in different locations of the "room", do you think that would help create a more 3-dimensional sound? That might be a fun little experiment. I could also remove all of the reverb in Gadget, and apply a better reverb in Cubasis, or better yet, do this in Auria so I can use Pro-R reverb. So many options...
@Cib, I certainly can understand your viewpoint and the needs of your ears. I have been on a classical music forum recently ( why I started this thread), and believe me, they roundly dismiss desktop produced music much more harshly than your criticism of the limitations of iOS. I guess it is a relative thing. And it is definitely a problem if you are "emulating" something rather than using something (like a synth lead) that is not an emulation of anything. You can use virtual acoustic instruments in ways you can't use the real ones ( pitch range, crazy impossible moves on a violin, etc). @kuhl added Model D to a Mahler piece with great effect. I guess if you are always trying to "emulate" you are not free to use even acoustic virtual instruments in a brand new way. Does that make any sense?
As far as FX, they are getting better (FabFilter?) aren't they? Maybe iOS just needs a couple more years, but if we just try to emulate a real orchestra those classical guys will always beat us down, and maybe rightly s. Take the orchestra and transform it, I say! Fuck em.