Loopy Pro: Create music, your way.
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Comments
Auto save is pretty much one of the fundamental principles of iOS app design. It features prominently in every Apple mobile design paradigm guideline as a way to get away from the traditional feel of desktop file management...
I think it’s essential. Especially when AU enthusiasts exceed their memory allocation limits by trying to load too many instances of an AU...
I agree. I actually like it. When dealing with AU instability, it comes in handy.
I like it, sometimes. Hate it other times. I think Nanostudio does it the way I'd like to see it in most music apps. When I save 'My Song' it only overwrites that file when I manually hit save. At the same time, it regularly autosaves to another file called 'My Song (autosave)'. Best of both worlds imo.
When done 'properly' Auto-Save is cool but apps implementing auto-save should include tools to do proper 'clean up'. Cubasis is a prime example that leaves a load of auto-save & undo-crap behind and the only way to delete those is to trash the app and re-install it...
And well, iOS should include tools for the end-user to clean app caches as the way iOS 'deletes files' when it 'feels like it' sucks big time and there is no clue as to 'when' it does it and that can in some cases cause 'freezes' and other 'hick-ups' when the devices is starting to get low on storage...
As for apps in general 'cache cleanup' and 'temp file management' should be mandatory as iOS doesn't handle this properly. (Ie. does clean up when it 'feels like it' with no way to manually trigger those 'cleanup scripts').
It's quite strange really that Apple approves and allows apps from Facebook and other social media companies and doesn't require them to include cleanup features! (it's crazy when instagram hogs >3GB's of cache due to auto-play videos that can NOT be disabled etc. etc.).
There's not even tools to 'delete' the temporary images the photos.app makes when editing pictures...
Sometimes I do wonder if the good folks at Apple use the same iOS device for extended periods of time to actually 'experience' the lack of proper cache-management....
FCPX saves every single thing you do as you do it. You can undo a whole days work if you want to. It also auto saves your project on a regular basis. It’s saved my bacon a few times. I think it’s the undo function that many apps are missing.
Man, you would be at home on the Beatmaker forum, the mod there has some very strong opinions on this subject.
The way Xequence handles this is three-fold, and I think combines the best of all worlds
grin
There's more details to it, but this is probably something every user can live with (and the Apple review team too!)
Totally agree with @Samu and @SevenSystems. The way iOS is designed, your app can be forced to quit anytime, so the app would better be prepared not to lose any data.
Audio Evolution would certainly profit from such an option too
I like the way it's done in Gadget:
If you don't save, whatever happens, re-opening Gadget will bring the last state back and you can just continue to work. This is gold when you sometimes forget to save before switching apps, and you're free to save anytime you want.
Would you agree that a "silent auto-save" without any visible additional files, just to make sure your work is safe, can be a good thing?
@tja:
What about Undo/Redo?
And nothing stops you from doing a "Save as..." with a new file name whenever you think you have an version worth keeping.
...
No and no.
In Gadget, the original version is not overwritten.
If you want to go back, just load the original again.
Think of the auto-save feature like a temporary project that is kept until you either decide to save or abandon it.
The good thing is that you can "Save as..." anytime when you feel like keeping a second version.
Yes, this. Perfect. That's actually the way Nanostudio does it too. I forgot about the second bullet.
Persistent Undo/Redo (across app closures, device crashes, etc) that covered any possible change in the app would work for me in most situations. Otherwise, it's not quite the ticket (again, 'for me'). And not all apps with Undo allow for undoing everything. Like how some will revert sequence changes but not sound changes or settings changes, etc.
DM1 is the classic example of what @tja was talking about. You load a project, mess with the grid, mess with some sounds and then decide "Actually, this sucks—I should have just left it alone". NOPE. Everything bad decision you made has been 'helpfully' committed to the file. You could do a "Save as..." at this point but you'd have to identical saves.
So in fact it's not AutoSave who's to blame, but rather the way it's implemented in some apps, and I agree that I've had enlightening moments of annoyance too
Crashes and the need to sometimes 'toss' an app from memory are common enough that I am thankful for autosave -- and also appreciate apps like Xequence that have the best of both worlds.
If one is doing an experimental branch of a project, it makes sense to do a save as (or save copy -- depending on the app) so that you can go back to your baseline version.
Audio Evolution Mobile Studio is very similar. There's the save and save as stuff. There's the automatic save everytime you exit the app. and, there's the additional automatic save. The only real difference is that it keeps the autosaves together within the project so that you can go back to them easily at any time. However, although it doesn't delete them automatically, they CAN be manually deleted and they all remain within the project folder as Autosave0, Autosave1, etc. I really feel that Audio Evolution Mobile Studio has at last saved us iPhone users! I am not worried in the least about losing my data, and I NEVER notice any of the autosaves taking place (they take place intelligently). While it has been around for iPad users for a while, it just barely when Universal, and I feel that finally--FINALLY, iPhone users have a top tier DAW that we can be proud of and really make use of. This is the way that I want Autosaves done, and I can't think of a better way to do it.
This IS the way it's done!
Auto save has definitely saved me losing my progress on a track on multiple occasions. As long as an app has a separate way to save state at a point in time with a file name as well i think auto save is just an added protection
Just to clarify with what I said about Audio Evolution Mobile Studio, the original is not overwritten either. Backups are just made called Autosave0, Autosave1, Autosave2, etc. They are kept within the file of the project, and can be easily deleted as desired, from within the app. Nice!
Another thing that I forgot to mention with AEM Studio: As I understand it, the original files are all kept untouched. All editing is non-destructive and all files are available. So, if any of the several backups and saves were to fail, you could still easily grab all of your recordings and such.
The file system within the app is really well done. For example:
Documents/Projects/Untitled_0001
Could contain:
Folder - Mixdowns
Folder - Recordings
Folder - Samples
Untitled_0001.prj
Autosave0.prj
Autosave1.prj
Autosave2.prj
Autosave3.prj
etc.
There's one little thing I would like to see in AEM: Continue where I left the app.
As it works currently, I have to open the Project menu, then "Load Project", then find the right Autosave file, select it and hit "Load" every time I fire up AEM again.
Because AutoSaves are also done for empty projects, things go messy after a while.
Even worse: If you rely on AEM's Auto-Save, your work will get completely lost eventually because it only keeps 5 autosave files and the 6th start without you actively saving the project will overwrite your last good project. Gone forever.
I really prefer the way it's handled in Gadget - it just works and you don't even think about it.
I can see that, and it's dope for effects and au stuff but, for example the way groovebox does it is very annoying, I feel like I can't experiment cuz it'll auto save it and then I lost my starting point and have to delete and start over.
Deff !
I need to get back on that forum , bm3 does auto save right !
I wouldn’t want to go back to a world without auto-save. I grew up in the days when you were forced to “save early, safe often” (Sierra adventure game slogan), and it was just a drag and led to many frustrating moments of lost progress and time. For me personally there aren’t even any use cases where auto-save creates any problem.
Cubasis has 200 levels of undo/redo history and they persist across app relaunches - we can undo/redo even after we close/reopen the project/app. However, the most annoying thing about autosave in GB and Cubasis is - I open a project and - without making any changes - switch to another project and it autosaves the project changing its modified date / moving the file all the way to the top. Because of this, I tend not to open my old projects - even when I need to. In GB, we can move each project into its own subfolder and keep the subfolder positions in the file list intact because even if we open a project inside a subfolder and not make any changes, it autosaves the project within the subfolder but the folder date remains the same retaining its position and does not move to the top. In Auria (as per its dev), it autosaves the project as we keep touching the screen (it may be the same autosave behavior in GB and Cubasis too). Devs - please introduce some sanity into apps. There is no need to reinvent something that already works gracefully for decades but only make it worse. Unless your app is too buggy, unreliable and prone to crashing frequently, there is NO reason to autosave. @Lars - I haven't seen Cubasis crash in years and autosave is not necessary in it - a more optimal saving process is desired such as saving to a temp project as we keep working and ability to Save (overwrite), Save As, delete autosaved files, etc.
I think autosaving is a great idea actually, and I use Auria’s “save a copy of the project” all the time. Rim should simply rename it as “save as”, which is what it really is.