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Sorry for multiple posts. It’s funny because although we differ somewhat we really agree on the important nuances - playing and spacing. What you describe is exactly what I do, you try to capture the distinctions best and then make it sound beautiful and lose the nastiness. iOS and fabfilter is great for this for me
Edit: we both linked the same video to each other which rather backs up the above point!
Wow, @wingwizard, that is a very cool idea! So you use the Noise output for importing an audio track using a second iPad ( I think I can do that!). How exactly do you connect the second iPad to the interface? Mini plug out of the iPad into stereo audio in on the AI? I actually have that cable. Can it be that simple?
Probably a lot of members would like to try that. Could you hook up a Roli keyboard in to that setup? I am thinking it is simple midi in?
Shit, sounds like some more money out the door. And just when I told the wifey I had everything I needed!
It is that simple.
I just used a headphone jack adapter on a guitar cable.
You just get noise up and running and then plug your iPad/iPhone into the appropriate line in on your audio interface and record as an audio track- just like if you were plugging an electric guitar in. I ran a normal 1/4 innch audio guitar cable from the headphone out of my iPad with noise. You can also use the usb-c of new iPads (lightning too maybe I dunno ?) although you’d need an adapter to get into the line in. The headphone adapter is listed as working with audio interfaces. But the principle is just get an audio cable between the two and regard it as an electric guitar.
I don’t know if anyone else knows whether you could record to usb midi, from an iPad into an audio interface, like a midi synth, though this probably wouldn’t work with roli as its mpe. I’m stretching my knowledge here lol
I’m a retard when it comes to remembering boring stuff so I forget whether I need balanced unbalanced and have to check every bloody time. Sigh. I wish I could train my brain to pay attention to necessary but boring things.
One thing to watch out for is that your phantom power is turned off on the line you plug your iPad into. I read someone saying it would be ok as phantom power isn’t real power or the voltage it states, but also read of people causing their iPad to black out so I don’t know, definitely something I want to avoid.
Oh, and yes it’s easy enough playing with midi keyboards this way as they use the lightning port. I’m just thinking now that with the usb-c iPads you couldn’t do this but then if you’re using a midi controller almost all the time you wouldn’t need to its only with roli swam. Roli and swam don’t use midi controllers though, they use mpe and rolis controllers.
I don’t know if midi controllers work with their app - I doubt it because... you never give me your money/that’s what I want.
The light pad ms are very easy to sneak past even the most observant and parsimonious wife. These are really for single instrument lines rather than chord work or slow chord like arrangements but then so are the swam packs.
Thanks so much @wingwizard. Maybe someone else will advise if a midi keyboard will work with Noise in the setup you are suggesting. Otherwise, what would you say is the least expensive way into this sonic paradise? what Roli product, in other words? Hmmm... Maybe a Haken!
@Linearlineman Look for a used/refurbed iPhone if this advice interests you. Many of the Apps you own will install on an iphone and you can plug it's output into your UR22mkII Audio Interface. Ideally plug it in through a Korg PlugKey using 1/4" R+L Audio Cables to get a clean signal path that does't degrade or add noise.
I need to check out these SWAM strings with Noise for $10. Just under my price limit at $9.99.
@McDtracy - I would definitely be interested in your thoughts once you get the SWAM stuff. Thanks!
IN THE NEWS: IK Multimedia is shipping SampleTank 4 for Mac/Windows in three levels with the highest costing $300 and offering 250GB of samples covering 8,000 instruments. Then down to $200, $100 with reductions in samples/instruments.
It's a new App and not sold as an upgrade apparently. I'd expect something similar to get packaged for IOS with a much smaller set of samples but we shall see.
This product highlights a huge difference between Desktops/Laptops and IOS: you can add external storage to the desk/lap-tops. But with IOS you start with what you'll have and the only option Apples offers is off-loading samples to iCloud.
For Pro's this is just not an option.
Ok, @McDtracy, you go in the water first and swim around. Then you can share what it was like to swim with swam and then maybe we can all swave some money!
I have an iPad4 but it don't make the OS cut for Noise.
Something that can't be emphasized enough (and the MIke Verta videos show this) is that getting "realistic" orchestral sounds is even more about how you play and write the parts than the quality of the samples. Sample quality is important, but even the best sample library (as others have noted) will sound artificial and crappy if not approached correctly. And it takes both a while to develop the techniques for correct articulations but also a real ear for which articulations and sounds the library can realistically handle. This is also true for modeled instruments.
In those SWAM demos, there are moments where they sound great and moments where they sound awfully artificial because the guy playing them is not avoiding the sorts of phrasing that highlights their artificiality.
In my opinion, it is often as much about understanding what one's library can't do as anything else.
As an aside, Cubasis' 48ppq resolution may be a problem for some of the subtler techniques that Verta shows (like quick-rolling chords).
Btw, I really like Finger Fiddle -- which is a bit of a hassle to play if you don't already play a bowed instrument -- I think in a lot of contexts a little eq (or the judicious application of an IR) can really sell it. I checked out some YouTube videos of people using it for sarangi parts that just killed me.
I did a bit of research. The Strings Swam Pack in Noise is not accessible from the AUv3 Noise App. Just standalone Noise (and maybe IAA, not sure). I think I'll hold off to recover from the Black Friday blow out. I saved so much money I'm in the penalty box. Swam sells the Noise packs for about $1.25 per instrument so getting a good sampling for orchestral work is not a great option to me but for those solo tracks it might be great.
I suspect it needs the Roli Seaboard to provide all the realistic features and then you go chasing after that hardware too to follow this approach for an entry level cost of $300. Simulated perfection has it's costs.
Last night I just played the Grand Piano in my Casio and it drove home the reminder: the music that's deeply rooted in me comes from my hands and not from Apps. And I need to get to work to connect my brain (and what I can hear internally) with what my hands do with muscle memory. There's an impulse to slow it down and use editing or notation to craft better music but I think my bliss lies in the direction of more spontaneous and less analytical methods. It's a more interesting journey to me.
Ask me again in 3 months and I'll probably shift my approach again. I just enjoy the journey I think. So, much to see, hear, taste and so many people to learn from. Life continues to be good. Very good.
Does anyone know how many packs, esp. swam packs are included/unlocked when you buy a roli block MPE controller?
I agree. The right tool for the right people. I´m sure a lot people do more awesome things with SWAM and even could do it with the limited iOS version than i can do with all my nice Kontakt libraries. But there is also a reason why many people own several libraries since each has pro and contra, different timbre, mic and whatever.
I mean i think the time i would need to master the SAWM-S for desktop with MPE, breath and whatever and really nail the nuances for certain articulations i can learn to play the real thing maybe faster
My favorite for violin are f.e. Emotional Violin and Bohemian Violin where you can choose moods and certain styles and the samples are performed in an actual musical context and the scripting allows me to play more expressive without many knobs and switches than i ever dreamed of.
While i play these instruments i get really inspired while most iOS orchestral or physical modeled strings let me damn cold and don´t evoke the emotions i expect from such expressive instruments.
But then i´m also not a fan of physical modeled keys. While Pianoteq is awesome i still prefer something like Keyscape which offesr unique keys i never heard as good and feels so intimate and full of character.
Not bad ....
Great, thanks, now I have to spend another 30 quid. Smh.
Lol
very late to this one, oops.
@Linearlineman Did your questions get answered yet? Hopefully someone will read your original "question" and contribute something helpful on your quest. I think someone already suggested hiring real musicians for your recording sessions.
I think with your new Kawaii and it's excellent sampled instruments you have your work cut out for you but you do like posts that generate far flung discussions so...
Have you directly requested the FabFilter Folks on their progress making Cubasis-capable AUv3 FX to improve the quality of your orchestras? I know you do a lot of work begging developers to drive IOS forward and that helps us all.
Well, @McDtracy, not sure I actually posed any questions, but if I did they were certainly answered. I think the best thing was
@ScottVanZandt's Firetrain, which proved indisputably that you can make something great with iOS acoustics. The rest is just trying to do better. When I hear my old stuff from the summer I feel pretty sure I can do better now. But when you solve one problem there always seems to be a new challenge....
And here is my latest: I can only use Maildrop to send files as Dropbox is unavailable in Turkey. Maildrop is an Apple product that sends files over 20 MB thru iCloud mail. However, I cannot find a way to import those files directly to Cubasis. Does anyone have experience with Maildrop and know how to do this? Audio to audio thru an AI is certainly a possibility as I have learned from this thread thru @wingwizard.
Send me a maildrop attached file and i’ll See what I can do with it on IOS. My iCloud.com account is best. The others go to the Mac.
I think that the combination of iSymphonic with some IAPs as a base, plus BeatHawk with some IAPs, Bsi16 with Soundfonts, and Korg Module with some expansion packs, as well as the Embertone apps could make an amazing and somewhat realistic soundtrack. I have all of the apps that I mentioned, and I will create an episode on my YouTube Channel called "I didn't know an iPad could sound like THAT!" to demo this after the holidays.
-Scarlet Jerry
The Digital Music Source
Will do @McDtracy. Look forward to that @scarletjerry!
Some experience with pen2bow would be interesting to add to this thread if anyone has any? Always wondered how it fared controlling other orchestral or string apps on ios
OK. I took the bait.
I bought Pen2Bow for $8. I spent some time learning to make it work. Not trivial by the way. It needs AUM to work with most Apps.
Then I went looking for some a solo string app and realized that I only have Thumbjam's cello and the MV Orchestra in SampleTank (which is past it's freshness date).
So, I looked into iSymphonic to see what they wanted to give me a solo string: $16 for a violin and more to add a cello. Today I'm installing the $16 violin option.
Pen2Bow adds a really nice envelope making many of the articulation options less critical. It starts, stops and sustains notes like a real bow would using CC controls for volume and 3 other options I haven't figure out yet. I'll work on that later.
I added Noise SWAM Solo Strings but didn't read the fine print and discovered they don't work in the AUv3 version of Noise. Only in the stand-alone product which doesn't allow external MIDI input but just the Roli on-screen keyboard so I'd have to use 2 iPads to record something and can't drive it with Pen2Bow. It does sound really nice so I'm sad they limit to their keyboard(s) but can see why they would to use all it's expressive features and sell more keyboard hardware to get multiple octaves. It's always something, right?
I'll report back.
@LinearLineman
I too find orchestral/ acoustic libraries on IOS really disappointing.
Some stuff like Thumbjam show much promise, but the moving target of IOS means any investment in apps this year may mean they are unusable/abandoned in 2 years (I'm talking time investment)
Made me commit further into really top libraries on Kontakt.
)
Orchestral Tools, Spitfire, 8dio, Soundiron etc. (BF sales were SO good
At least with these libraries I can create realistic sounding works with as much expression as I can muster.
Costly libraries, but a smart investment as far as current and future work.
IOS is a toy in the sample library department (lack of ram is the enemy no1).
My mac has 64gig of ram - so I can work on really large track counts with huge complex orchestral templates loaded, and many lanes of expressive automation on (big) screen.
OK. Orchestras are a bridge too far maybe but chamber music with fewer players is reachable. I make this music for the joy of creating it so keeping a lid on the spend is important.
RE: Pen2Bow
You use one hand for the pen (i.e. bow gestures) and the other on an external keyboard (Pen2Bow does offer an in app KB too).
So, I follow my limited violin training and bow with my right hand and use my left on the keyboard. So, I'd be creating soulful cello or violin rhapsodies without fast runs and my left hand tends to think below middle C but jumping octaves in the app or just moving the bench towards the treble will work too.
More updates when I get the new iSymphonic Solo Violin plumbed into AUM with Pen2Bow sending out CC's to AUM as a target. Then AUM can be configured to send them onto iSymphonic controlling volumes for a typical string players envelope driven by "bow" gestures. A $24 dollar upgrade experiment to allow a slow violin solo to be created. Just another tool in the IOS kit. Does and Application for the desktop do this using a pen input? The pen seems like overkill until I can learn what the other pen attributes can do for me. Most seem to be related to various aspects of tilts but what do these extra CC's do?
I'll report back as I figure it all out... or not.
@scarletjerry video I suspect will show some good ideas to making iOS orchestral music. @ScottVanZandt is already making fantastic orchestral/film music with iOS.
It may be harder on iOS due to RAM limitations, but you could run into RAM limits on a PC also. I’ve read about/watched videos with composers with 3 PCs networked together for their huge orchestral temlatea.
iOS orchestral Music means finding best samples, freezing tracks, adding expression after performance, etc.
PC with more RAM means leaving more tracks in MIDI without having to bounce or freeze. Faster for sure. Better sample recordings exist in very mature kontakt sample libraries.
Yep PC is better, faster than iOS in this area, and more expensive
I’ve had my struggles with iOS orchestral music, tried PC orchestral music, and came back to iOS music making. Maybe will go back to PC? Who knows!
Violin Gestures:
Spiccato - bouncing the bow on the strings. Not easy with a pen.
iSymphonic sells a sample of this I noticed (which is how I learned what it means).
Détaché - Looks like a standard 90 degree to the string bowing gesture. After a run of the bow the direction needs to be reversed and it creates a loss of the sound for a brief fraction of a second. I think violin sections play long sustains try to stagger these events to keep the sound consistent. The pen allows a circular motion to play with smooth infinite sustain just like a keyboard sample lets you just hold a key down for the same result. Pen for violin/string/orchestra samples will allow for long smooth legatos of sound.
Martelé - strong bow attack and don't lift the bow at the end of the note damping the sound when you stop motion. No real pen equivalent. Didn't see a sample in this articulation yet.
Pen2Bow generates 4 continuous MIDI controllers:
Velocity CC7
Force CC1
Tilt CC14
Orientation CC15
Any of these CC's can be re-programmed
MIDI CC Standards:
CC7 = Main Volume
CC1 = Mod wheel
CC14 = Undefined
CC15 = Undefined
When you play Pen2Bow there are screen sliders that show the values of each parameter. It looks like mapping Force to the violin volume will be a good experiment and try Pen velocity to map to some LFO for vibrato or vice versa.
Pen2Bow with a non-SWAM sample library you have to switch off the bipolar velocity mode. (I did this in my case with ThumbJam). In bipolar mode, a value of 63 represents no bow movement, 127 represents maximum velocity in one direction and 0 represents maximum velocity in the other bowing direction. This allows transmitting information about the bowing direction and velocity within one single midi controller. Unfortunately only the SWAM family of string instruments currently support this bipolar option. I hope that other developers of string libraries will realize the impact of bowing controllers like Pen2Bow and provide that option in the future. Until then, you have to switch bipolar mode off in Pen2Bow. In that case, a value of 0 represents no bow movement and a value of 127 represents maximum velocity, like a normal mod wheel.
Is there another SWAM Violin App to use?
It occurs to me that TC-Data could easily be configured to allow this type of control just using a finger. The Pen would not be required. I guess that's what Fiddlicator does, huh?
When i look at my favorite Kontakt libraries they often just need to load 1-2 GB into RAM (or less).
Apps like iSymphonic and some others also already are not so small for iOS apps but still sounds expressive as a stone.
Even the free stuff i get for mac is so much better.
I really hope iOS get this kind of apps it deserves one day here as well.
It‘s not a question if iPads can do it....it‘s just the question if there ever will be a market and the tools for it. There is nothing magic doing these things on any platform or device. They are all just computers.
Again the „stamp“ it‘s made on an iPad only sounds more like an apologize in advance