While we're all cooped up inside, here're some Loopy Pro updates

Janosax

@BlueGreenSpiral said:
Just thinking about improvising a liveset from scratch in front of an audience is giving me panic 🤣

Yes me too... 😅😅😀 but this is what I want and hope to do, even if this will certainly take me a few years before being totally ready!! The biggest difficulty to me is to build an interesting and non redundant one hour set. That also means a wide sound color palette in my case. Ableton has nice racks and capabilities to facilitate that, and I know Audiobus is also very well suited for this (no AU crashes on presets loading, AUM can gives some not reloading AU at times) but adds latency to the IAA looper, so Loopy Pro all in one looper host seems to be a perfect candidate.

BlueGreenSpiral

I should have mentioned that I use multiple iOS devices and some mini audio/midi accessories instead of Ableton for gigs/projects that involve leaving the house.

Initially because I'm not carrying a desktop PC/monitor around but it's good to travel light and I'm not running into many limitations.

aplourde

@Janosax said:

@aplourde said:

@Janosax said:
The main feature midi looping provides is quantization

I would say the main feature of MIDI looping is that the flexibility to change notes and sounds. The biggest "problem" with audio looping is the locked-in nature of audio recordings. Repetition can be a lovely thing, but at a certain point you probably want to make a change. With audio, apart from superficial changes with effects processing, you have to record a new section. But unless you're able to play multiple instruments at once it means getting from your A section to your B section has to be done in steps, recording one instrument at a time.

With MIDI you could e.g. transpose the notes; filter out every other note; change the sound of the destination synth; etc. And all of this could be setup and triggered automatically, or with a footswitch, etc..
So, for example, if you record your bass and pads as MIDI and have them routed through a transposing scale quantizer, you could modulate both of those while still playing your lead instrument allowing you to make a big change from your A section to your B section all at once.

That’s also true but for producing, and the first purpose of a looper is live recording. For live looping you will prefer to use audio for stability and ressources management.

I will?! I'm kidding. But I just want to point out that with MIDI you're not limited to having the sound generation "in the box". You could have your MIDI loop playing an external synth so the resources on the iPad would be even lower.

There are lots of people using this workflow right now, not just for producing but for live performances. Looping as MIDI allows you to tweak the sounds, transpose, etc. in ways that aren't possible with audio loops. Right now, the only practical way to do this (seamlessly integrated MIDI and audio looping) is with Ableton Live, having Loopy Pro with audio and MIDI looping would be fantastic for all the reasons you mentioned.

nerVe

@Michael said:

Thank you 😊 I’m certainly about 85 to 90% there, still a few important things to tick off but the backbone is well and truly completed. I’m still not publicly talking about release dates because I don’t want to embarrass myself, but I’m not expecting it to be very much longer.

Holding breath 👍🙃

reasOne

why are people anti midi im so confused 🤣 just ignore midi if you don’t wanna use , defending midi is like “defending a lion, it don’t need your help just unlock the cage “

BlueGreenSpiral

I don't think anyone is against midi, but it has been mentioned that it would add months to the release date.

Shabudua

@reasOne said:
why are people anti midi im so confused 🤣 just ignore midi if you don’t wanna use , defending midi is like “defending a lion, it don’t need your help just unlock the cage “

I’m not anti-midi, it just sounds like a rather involved feature set to add to Loopy Pro, so I’d like to have a working version of Loopy Pro in my hands before @Michael decides to head down that road.

wim

I own no less than five audio loopers. All of them except one get used all the time. All have certain features that make them stand out from the others. All have a few shortcomings I wish would get ironed out.

It’s a crowded field.

Here’s my point: The single biggest marketing success factor for Loopy Pro other brand reputation and customer loyalty will be: Making it clear how Loopy Pro is different and better.

If Loopy Pro is clearly differentiated than it will be much more successful than if it is vaguely tossed into the pile of existing loopers. That is where the attention should be focused as far as generating buzz.

I’m not just talking about how it’s different/better than Loopy HD. Ideally it should stand out from the already crowded field of looping apps.

I believe that integrated MIDI looping would definitely add to that differentiation, but I’m not saying that in order to push for it before the initial release. My main point is about what I feel is important for marketing success ... standing out from the pack. Hopefully it does with the existing feature set, and Michael will find ways to communicate that to potential customers.

McD

@wim said:
I believe that integrated MIDI looping would definitely add to that differentiation

I agree. There's no integrated Looping app with Audio+MIDI and it would open huge new
possibilities for Live and Production workflows for creatives. I'd probably live inside one
since sync and audio in AUM channels me into an approach that leads to music with many flaws but the speed of delivery is the benefit.

I'd love to have more takes of audio and the ability to lay down notes and fix the bad ones or
use those notes for generating more structures with scripts.

So... let's assume we're brainstorming some features to be included:
piano roll editing?
recording from MIDI FX apps?

Your thoughts? I'm sure we can debate this for months before anyone creates such an app.
But throwing ideas before smart developers often helps them consider "out of the box" thinking and how music makers would use the product and react to it before they write a lot of code for the "Loopy DAW". Given @Michael's approach and dedication to a polish product this could be a multi-year effort and a follow on product.

Hopefully the idea of an IOS Syncing protocol hits him and he makes a "Link" that solves a lot of these issues for the platform so AUM, Cubasis, Xequence and Loopy Pro can run in parallel in the future with the right set of defacto API's. Apple would probably do Version 1 all wrong and then fix it with their reaction as Version 2 or 3.

The hardware will keep scaling with new features and the platform software can use some
coordination regarding sync. Maybe this is just a problem like internet syncing where the laws of the speed of light cannot allow a shared metronome and the results have to be buffered and aligned on each end. Taking the whole collaboration into a game of hot potato: who's got the real clock?

wim

Well, see, that’s the rub, isn’t it? Add in MIDI looping, and then the feature set people will expect multiplies and the work goes up exponentially.

It’s one thing to record and loop MIDI, maybe trim, adjust, and import/export. But then people will want a piano roll editor, then MIDI FX hosting, then recording of MIDI FX, then swing, then CC automation and editing, then probability per step, p-locks ....

It could turn into a quagmire, including bad App Store reviews. That’s the definite downside of opening that Pandora’s box.

That’d be what I’d be fretting about. Making clear the purpose and limits of such an addition. Just as the audio side has certain limitations appropriate to a looper vs. a DAW, so MIDI looping if it ever comes needs to be focused as well.

wim

OK. I’m done pretending I know anything about what I’m talking about.

(Side note for Michael: I’ve been consistently almost 100% wrong in marketing sentiments my whole career. The companies I’ve worked for that have done the exact opposite of what I thought was right have been wildly successful. )

McD

@wim said:
OK. I’m done pretending I know anything about what I’m talking about.

I think @michael says it's OK to keep the conversation going. His post prompted him to
take a serious look into adding MIDI with 2 responses:

1. It would be easy to add.
2. It's a BIG deal of work.

So, the conversation helped him consider and perhaps change his plan for the feature list
or harden his resolve to just stabilize a design that's been in place for sometime.

If he didn't want conversation to get started to generate Buzz he wouldn't have disclosed anything but just dropped the app on the Store and hoped for a lot of press and forum response to market the app.

It will be interesting to see if the disclosures on Drambo increased the buying frenzy when it drops or made more of us cautious. It scratches an itch I don't happen with it's inherent modular complexity. I tend to respond to synth apps with great presets and a game like interface that just responds in magical ways as I try various UI widgets. I play for a few days and tend to forget I won them until someone drops a batch of free presets to check out and
get inspired. Thanks @Spidericemidas and @richardyot for those little community gifts.

wim

Just so it’s clear: I didn’t say any of that to try to shut down conversation. Just putting out my perspective as part of that conversation. I’m done, not because I don’t think the conversation worthwhile, but because I recognize when I’m spouting things as if I know what I’m talking about when I don’t. Nothing intended as a message to anyone else.

McD

@wim said:
I’m done

I'm not going to hold you to that because this could go on for a while due of a lack of new products to chat about. I was expecting a huge surge on the creation category but it's seems about normal.

fattigman

@Michael I’m very excited about the new looper. I hope you will implement groups so the looper can be used to create whole somgs and not only loop a couple of bars.
I have a question about the midi looper. What is the point of a midi looper if you can’t edit ? Is it only for quantization? Thanks

espiegel123

@fattigman said:
@Michael I’m very excited about the new looper. I hope you will implement groups so the looper can be used to create whole somgs and not only loop a couple of bars.
I have a question about the midi looper. What is the point of a midi looper if you can’t edit ? Is it only for quantization? Thanks

I don't see that not having a MIDI editor is any different from not having an audio editor. In my opinion, using loopers isn't about recording and editing, it is about realtime performance. You can export to a DAW for things you need to edit.

I would guess that exporting MIDI would be possible. I use Photon a lot which doesn't have editing and find it very handy.

reasOne

ya all this makes me curious what michel’s been over there building! i know is a host that records loops , but i am curious about the features that make it different and useable. based on loopy i already know it’s going to do those things looping very well.
excited to see and the thought midi looping how that might look and be editable.
i feel like this will be loaded up every time my ipads on tho haha

[Deleted User]

@reasOne said:
ya all this makes me curious what michel’s been over there building!

I hope this is a Tom Waits reference.

Ben

Good eye @SimonSomeone.

reasOne

@SimonSomeone said:

@reasOne said:
ya all this makes me curious what michel’s been over there building!

I hope this is a Tom Waits reference.

he’s hiding something from the rest of us....

supadom

@aplourde said:

@Janosax said:

@aplourde said:

@Janosax said:
The main feature midi looping provides is quantization

I would say the main feature of MIDI looping is that the flexibility to change notes and sounds. The biggest "problem" with audio looping is the locked-in nature of audio recordings. Repetition can be a lovely thing, but at a certain point you probably want to make a change. With audio, apart from superficial changes with effects processing, you have to record a new section. But unless you're able to play multiple instruments at once it means getting from your A section to your B section has to be done in steps, recording one instrument at a time.

With MIDI you could e.g. transpose the notes; filter out every other note; change the sound of the destination synth; etc. And all of this could be setup and triggered automatically, or with a footswitch, etc..
So, for example, if you record your bass and pads as MIDI and have them routed through a transposing scale quantizer, you could modulate both of those while still playing your lead instrument allowing you to make a big change from your A section to your B section all at once.

That’s also true but for producing, and the first purpose of a looper is live recording. For live looping you will prefer to use audio for stability and ressources management.

I will?! I'm kidding. But I just want to point out that with MIDI you're not limited to having the sound generation "in the box". You could have your MIDI loop playing an external synth so the resources on the iPad would be even lower.

There are lots of people using this workflow right now, not just for producing but for live performances. Looping as MIDI allows you to tweak the sounds, transpose, etc. in ways that aren't possible with audio loops. Right now, the only practical way to do this (seamlessly integrated MIDI and audio looping) is with Ableton Live, having Loopy Pro with audio and MIDI looping would be fantastic for all the reasons you mentioned.

For me the limitations of audio looping have led me to the place I am now. Lets not forget about the effects as a post capture alteration tool. Turnado excels at that. So the repetition thing can be mitigated with great results. You can change the sound beyond recognition. I also find there’s magic in mingling audio vs synthesis. Think of long feedback tape delay with gradually shortened time!

Isn’t it easier to just pair loopy with a sequencer? I have loopy running alongside circuit without issues. Same thing with Drambo.

I’m not saying that Michael cannot make one because he is the ‘audi only’ developer. In fact I’m eager to see what he’s gonna come up with in art where so many on iOS have failed. When it comes to loopy It just feels like a jack of all trades type of situation.

As for the loop recording timing I’d advise practice. Most of us will be slightly ahead of the clock. Breathe, sit on the groove and make it happen . The exercise in self control. Midi looping has the ‘first note becomes the last note in the loop’ problem anyway.

supadom

@reasOne said:
why are people anti midi im so confused 🤣 just ignore midi if you don’t wanna use , defending midi is like “defending a lion, it don’t need your help just unlock the cage “

Name a stable and reasonably simple midi looper on iOS that you personally have used live.

espiegel123

@supadom said:

@aplourde said:

@Janosax said:

@aplourde said:

@Janosax said:
The main feature midi looping provides is quantization

I would say the main feature of MIDI looping is that the flexibility to change notes and sounds. The biggest "problem" with audio looping is the locked-in nature of audio recordings. Repetition can be a lovely thing, but at a certain point you probably want to make a change. With audio, apart from superficial changes with effects processing, you have to record a new section. But unless you're able to play multiple instruments at once it means getting from your A section to your B section has to be done in steps, recording one instrument at a time.

With MIDI you could e.g. transpose the notes; filter out every other note; change the sound of the destination synth; etc. And all of this could be setup and triggered automatically, or with a footswitch, etc..
So, for example, if you record your bass and pads as MIDI and have them routed through a transposing scale quantizer, you could modulate both of those while still playing your lead instrument allowing you to make a big change from your A section to your B section all at once.

That’s also true but for producing, and the first purpose of a looper is live recording. For live looping you will prefer to use audio for stability and ressources management.

I will?! I'm kidding. But I just want to point out that with MIDI you're not limited to having the sound generation "in the box". You could have your MIDI loop playing an external synth so the resources on the iPad would be even lower.

There are lots of people using this workflow right now, not just for producing but for live performances. Looping as MIDI allows you to tweak the sounds, transpose, etc. in ways that aren't possible with audio loops. Right now, the only practical way to do this (seamlessly integrated MIDI and audio looping) is with Ableton Live, having Loopy Pro with audio and MIDI looping would be fantastic for all the reasons you mentioned.

For me the limitations of audio looping have led me to the place I am now. Lets not forget about the effects as a post capture alteration tool. Turnado excels at that. So the repetition thing can be mitigated with great results. You can change the sound beyond recognition. I also find there’s magic in mingling audio vs synthesis. Think of long feedback tape delay with gradually shortened time!

Isn’t it easier to just pair loopy with a sequencer? I have loopy running alongside circuit without issues. Same thing with Drambo.

I’m not saying that Michael cannot make one because he is the ‘audi only’ developer. In fact I’m eager to see what he’s gonna come up with in art where so many on iOS have failed. When it comes to loopy It just feels like a jack of all trades type of situation.

As for the loop recording timing I’d advise practice. Most of us will be slightly ahead of the clock. Breathe, sit on the groove and make it happen . The exercise in self control. Midi looping has the ‘first note becomes the last note in the loop’ problem anyway.

There isn't a reliable, easy-to-integrate, lightweight MIDI looper at this point.

aplourde

@supadom said:

@reasOne said:
why are people anti midi im so confused 🤣 just ignore midi if you don’t wanna use , defending midi is like “defending a lion, it don’t need your help just unlock the cage “

Name a stable and reasonably simple midi looper on iOS that you personally have used live.

There isn't. Which is precisely why people are asking for one!

I don't believe it's an impossible task to achieve, I just think that it hasn't been the core identity of the apps you find it in. It's always an add-on feature to sequencers or file recorders so the workflow is rough. The apps behave like a sequencer or a file recorder that you can also loop, not as loopers that you can also use as sequencers or file recorders.

Loopy is a looper. Michael has thought deeply about the workflow and external MIDI control, so it works great for audio. It would, no doubt, also work great for MIDI. And to be clear, I don't think it should have MIDI editing - the app is Loopy, its identity is realtime capturing of live performance and looping that!

I'm not looking to delay the launch of the app, but I agree with @wim that it's a differentiating factor in a very crowded market and the reason why I would be excited by it (but, of course, I'll buy it regardless because: Michael)

espiegel123

@aplourde said:

@supadom said:

@reasOne said:
why are people anti midi im so confused 🤣 just ignore midi if you don’t wanna use , defending midi is like “defending a lion, it don’t need your help just unlock the cage “

Name a stable and reasonably simple midi looper on iOS that you personally have used live.

There isn't. Which is precisely why people are asking for one!

I don't believe it's an impossible task to achieve, I just think that it hasn't been the core identity of the apps you find it in. It's always an add-on feature to sequencers or file recorders so the workflow is rough. The apps behave like a sequencer or a file recorder that you can also loop, not as loopers that you can also use as sequencers or file recorders.

Loopy is a looper. Michael has thought deeply about the workflow and external MIDI control, so it works great for audio. It would, no doubt, also work great for MIDI. And to be clear, I don't think it should have MIDI editing - the app is Loopy, its identity is realtime capturing of live performance and looping that!

I'm not looking to delay the launch of the app, but I agree with @wim that it's a differentiating factor in a very crowded market and the reason why I would be excited by it (but, of course, I'll buy it regardless because: Michael)

I agree about no MIDI editing needed ... it should do for the MIDI what it does for the audio. Lean and mean and reliable. There are great MIDI and audio editors out there. @Michael doesn’t need to reinvent those wheels.

Michael

Thanks you lot!

Yeah, the MIDI stuff will be solid and usable, I promise - but probably in v1.1. I still wanna include an editor, shouldn't be too hard.

McD

@Michael said:
shouldn't be too hard.

You are a brave dev to put that in writing... This could be a Drambo type thread yet!
I suspect @giku_beepstreet has a great day job and doesn't code for the primary income.

The "Will code for food" types get apps out fast with a slim set of features and hopefully a great hook. The "Top 40" style coders like the impressive @brambos.

I'm encourage to see the 1.1 option... we may get something to play with this year for Loopy Pro.

espiegel123

@Michael said:
Thanks you lot!

Yeah, the MIDI stuff will be solid and usable, I promise - but probably in v1.1. I still wanna include an editor, shouldn't be too hard.

When you get to the MIDI, please allow loops that have CCs and no notes. I so,etc,es like to record loops of cc’s to control parameters of other synths or fx

Michael

@espiegel123 said:

@Michael said:
Thanks you lot!

Yeah, the MIDI stuff will be solid and usable, I promise - but probably in v1.1. I still wanna include an editor, shouldn't be too hard.

When you get to the MIDI, please allow loops that have CCs and no notes. I so,etc,es like to record loops of cc’s to control parameters of other synths or fx

Naturally!

Michael

@McD said:

@Michael said:
shouldn't be too hard.

You are a brave dev to put that in writing... This could be a Drambo type thread yet!
I suspect @giku_beepstreet has a great day job and doesn't code for the primary income.

The "Will code for food" types get apps out fast with a slim set of features and hopefully a great hook. The "Top 40" style coders like the impressive @brambos.

I'm encourage to see the 1.1 option... we may get something to play with this year for Loopy Pro.

Famous last words, eh? 😄

Yeah, my 'get apps out fast' days may be over for a little while during this time of intensive parenting!