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Artist's Revisionary Assessment Evidence (ARSE) - Billy Joel
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There is a long history of small men shouting crap about big men hoping for some amplification Vicar. No big thing or new...
What’s your take on his actual criticism though—the contempt thesis?
@JohnnyGoodyear so very true.
Small men despised Led Zeppelin.
Even small men in very high places like Rolling Stone Magazine.
It’s not being addressed - easier to attack the critic than the criticism.
I'm sure @ALB despises them as well! 😊
Wow - Billy Joel is a “big man”? Um, ok. If you didn’t want differing viewpoints, then why start this thread?
Read it. I'd prefer your own thoughts. Music is subjective. Your opinion, not someone else's, is what we're after here. Unless you wrote it?
Maybe he was going for irony with the 'elitist' slant, but I doubt it. I have never understood the ‘my opinion is right, yours is shit’ school of music journalism. Music journalists turned on Ben Folds exactly the same way a couple of decades later. It’s weird.
Always listen to your grandmother.
I’ve always found BJ grating. Just don’t like him. I don’t need to explain it. Most bad music is just a pass for me. I don’t like it; that’s my problem not the artist’s. But I find BJ profoundly offensive. Rosenbaum’s contempt thesis gets at part of why I feel that way. But I don’t care enough about the issue to dig any deeper.
I don’t despise anyone, really. I assume that Billy Joel is a decent guy. But I find Billy Joel’s recorded output to be sappy and shallow, sometimes both at the same time. Not sure how Led Zeppelin got into this. Not really relevant in terms of comparison. Relevant comparisons might include McCartney, Elton John, Michael McDonald, all of whom have been mentioned. Lionel Richie, Darryl Hall...?
Po
I actually like all those guys, at least a little, but BJ irritates me to the point where I can’t shut the radio off fast enough when he comes on. It doesn’t have to make sense.
Someone saying something they don’t like is “bad” strikes me as merely looking for confirmation of their opinion. “I don’t like” does not define “bad” just as “I like” doesn’t define “good”.
Yeah, of them all (male solo act/songwriter plays keys, 70’s-80), I find BJ most objectionable. With the rest, it depends on which part of their career/album.
Ok. Hardly a basis for debate, or even conversation, but ok.
What other standard is there for identifying good or bad music?
Now I know what it's like vetting nominations for a seat in the hall of fame!😊
Actually @JohnnyGoodyear, I really like the concept of this thread. Thank you!
Perhaps it could become something along the lines of "Song of the Month!" We could all take turns tossing daggers/deflecting attacks on all of the most popular musicians over history.
The contempt thesis is still on the table.
I just makes notes in people's files is all....
There is no “good” or “bad” art IMHO. If there is that means somebody gets to define it. How do they define it? If you don’t like something but I do how does it get defined? It’s pointless. When it comes to art I like what I like because it appeals to me on some level. That should be enough for anyone. If I like something and you don’t I doubt either of us can change the others mind.
He doesn't nail anything for me... he exposes a massive social insecurity masked as a search for honesty. Hr rarely mentions anything related to music as an art but mentions music as a social artifact. That's OK with me... rage on in your irritation at artifice but my musical tastes span multiple centuries and not the span of a young rebel's frustration with the world's injustices. It's narrow... petty and without much depth.
Criticism is always a mirror we look into and share our thoughts with the world. Not sure how to do it any other way however.
And criticism of criticism is a hall of mirrors with infinite resolution.
It occurs to me that for some it's impossible to make rock and roll on a piano... after Fats Domino every keyboard player seems to be reviled as a phony "rock star".
This forum has a good tendency to throw that frame of reference out with music as a fashion statement. It's not what we tend to admire... the looks, the rage, the noise.
Still, hall of mirrors... which way to the exgress, P.T.?
I am not familiar with that piece, but will certainly read it.
I love Rosenbaum’s The Catcher In The Driveway
and
Explaining Hitler.
Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it’s done, They’ve seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves. (Brendan Behan)
This, this, this. While I appreciate the spirit of the thread, I do fear that this crucial point has already been missed. That said, the idea of doing a cover-of-the-month thread would lead to a much more objective view of what constitutes a solid composition.
And everyone’s a genius that nails “it” when “it” is defined as “what I think”
That article just sounded like a self-loathing long islander who hasn’t matured enough to know why he resents himself
When a creative type tries to talk someone OUT of enjoying the output of another creative type, I assume it’s more about the speaker than the subject. Maybe jealousy. Maybe resentment that others don’t agree with them. Maybe just acting out. Trying to objectively describe why “billy Joel lacks talent” is a total waste of energy ... and, yes, using your energy to try to prove it makes me assume something about your talent (the general “your”)
Exactly!
Critics are like you and me. They talk about what they like and don’t like and sometimes try to make sense of it or justify their preferences. Unlike you and me, they sometimes get paid to do so. (ALB)
Sure, I agree. But my opinion was requested and so I gave it. I actually want to like that one song Just the Way You Are, if only the lyrics weren’t so odious, epitomizing the contempt thesis. It’s a love song to a woman he clearly doesn’t respect, and later dumped to take up with a model. Nice melody and chord changes though, and who doesn’t love Phil Woods?
Quote from OP: “ So. Billy Joel. What is his ARSE in your opinion? Is he front rank? Secondary? As a musician? A songwriter? A performer? Or whatever else you've got....”
He was a “front rank” earner, but a third rate artist. He has plenty of company.
Led Zeppelin “got into this” because @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr brought-up a lame music reviewer’s vIew to make his argument for him.
If you weren’t aware, like Billy Joel, Zep also had some reviewers (in much higher places) who looked down at recording artists who didn’t meet their pompous standards:
“Now, you probably think the title of the album is Led Zeppelin IV or Zoso or an unpronounceable series of symbols ... but you're wrong. The album has no title at all. The album cover also doesn't identify the band in any way, and they were advised that this was "professional suicide." But as it turned out, it was the opposite. According to Rolling Stone, Jimmy Page did this in part to get back at the rock music journalists and reviewers he'd come to view as enemies due to the incessant bad press and poor reviews the band received. He figured having an untitled album would make it more difficult for them to write about. The fact that the packaging also enhanced the band's mysterious image was probably also a motivating factor.”
https://www.grunge.com/206183/false-things-you-believe-about-led-zeppelin/