Artist's Revisionary Assessment Evidence (ARSE) - Billy Joel

SNystrom

As you might recall, Zep later released an album wrapped in a brown paper bag.

Subtle...

JohnnyGoodyear

Well chaps, we've certainly had some fun with Billy so far. As indicated this thread will close tomorrow morning Austin-time, allowing critics across the pond or further to have their say if they missed it so far. No doubt we shall revisit the ARSE with a new subject/object in the future etc

ALB

@SNystrom said:

@ALB said:

@SNystrom said:
I'm sure @ALB despises them as well! 😊

I don’t despise anyone, really. I assume that Billy Joel is a decent guy. But I find Billy Joel’s recorded output to be sappy and shallow, sometimes both at the same time. Not sure how Led Zeppelin got into this. Not really relevant in terms of comparison. Relevant comparisons might include McCartney, Elton John, Michael McDonald, all of whom have been mentioned. Lionel Richie, Darryl Hall...?

Led Zeppelin “got into this” because @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr brought-up a lame music reviewer’s vIew to make his argument for him.

If you weren’t aware, like Billy Joel, Zep also had some reviewers (in much higher places) who looked down at recording artists who didn’t meet their pompous standards:

“Now, you probably think the title of the album is Led Zeppelin IV or Zoso or an unpronounceable series of symbols ... but you're wrong. The album has no title at all. The album cover also doesn't identify the band in any way, and they were advised that this was "professional suicide." But as it turned out, it was the opposite. According to Rolling Stone, Jimmy Page did this in part to get back at the rock music journalists and reviewers he'd come to view as enemies due to the incessant bad press and poor reviews the band received. He figured having an untitled album would make it more difficult for them to write about. The fact that the packaging also enhanced the band's mysterious image was probably also a motivating factor.”

https://www.grunge.com/206183/false-things-you-believe-about-led-zeppelin/

Well, sure, but there are plenty of acts that have gotten bad reviews - I disagree with some and agree with others. So, what exactly is your point? I could care less about Jimmy Page’s axe to grind and this thread is about Billy Joel, not LED Zeppelin. I agree with many of the points in the article criticizing Billy Joel. And criticism is not just a thumbs up/thumbs down proposition, either. There were a couple of things in that article that I didn’t agree with but mostly thought it was on the money.

pete12000

@anickt said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@anickt said:

Someone saying something they don’t like is “bad” strikes me as merely looking for confirmation of their opinion. “I don’t like” does not define “bad” just as “I like” doesn’t define “good”.

What other standard is there for identifying good or bad music?

There is no “good” or “bad” art IMHO. If there is that means somebody gets to define it. How do they define it? If you don’t like something but I do how does it get defined? It’s pointless. When it comes to art I like what I like because it appeals to me on some level. That should be enough for anyone. If I like something and you don’t I doubt either of us can change the others mind.

I disagree...

Art seeks to unveil fundamental truths about the human condition. It's not as simple as "like" or "dislike". I wonder if Billy Joel was even trying to create art.... if he was, then he probably failed. It's bad art. There's nothing moving or relatable in the ballad of Brenda and Eddie, or in Uptown Girl. Even Goodnight Saigon sounds generic, as if he read an article in the paper about Vietnam and wrote a song about it.

For many people, Billy Joel's music is enjoyable, fun, light, superficial, entertaining pop. Nice melodies. Nothing complex or challenging that makes you think about what it means to be a human being.

Pop music is "good" when it's popular and sells a lot. If you judge Billy Joel by the measures of the game he was playing, then his music was good.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@pete12000 said:

Pop music is "good" when it's popular and sells a lot. If you judge Billy Joel by the measures of the game he was playing, then his music was good.

The market has spoken—talk to the invisible hand.

ALB

@pete12000 said:

@anickt said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@anickt said:

Someone saying something they don’t like is “bad” strikes me as merely looking for confirmation of their opinion. “I don’t like” does not define “bad” just as “I like” doesn’t define “good”.

What other standard is there for identifying good or bad music?

There is no “good” or “bad” art IMHO. If there is that means somebody gets to define it. How do they define it? If you don’t like something but I do how does it get defined? It’s pointless. When it comes to art I like what I like because it appeals to me on some level. That should be enough for anyone. If I like something and you don’t I doubt either of us can change the others mind.

I disagree...

Art seeks to unveil fundamental truths about the human condition. It's not as simple as "like" or "dislike". I wonder if Billy Joel was even trying to create art.... if he was, then he probably failed. It's bad art. There's nothing moving or relatable in the ballad of Brenda and Eddie, or in Uptown Girl. Even Goodnight Saigon sounds generic, as if he read an article in the paper about Vietnam and wrote a song about it.

For many people, Billy Joel's music is enjoyable, fun, light, superficial, entertaining pop. Nice melodies. Nothing complex or challenging that makes you think about what it means to be a human being.

Pop music is "good" when it's popular and sells a lot. If you judge Billy Joel by the measures of the game he was playing, then his music was good.

Glad you put “good” in italics. Maybe we should just post number of units sold...

SNystrom

@ALB The “point” (as I and others have clearly stated a number of times) is that if you rely on the opinions of others on which to state your case, you have no real opinion at all.

If you let others speak on your behalf It simply reveals your inability to think for yourself @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

Your lack of an ability to compose your own original argument without the crutch of a biased old fart makes you the “invisible hand

anickt

@pete12000 said:

@anickt said:

@Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

@anickt said:

Someone saying something they don’t like is “bad” strikes me as merely looking for confirmation of their opinion. “I don’t like” does not define “bad” just as “I like” doesn’t define “good”.

What other standard is there for identifying good or bad music?

There is no “good” or “bad” art IMHO. If there is that means somebody gets to define it. How do they define it? If you don’t like something but I do how does it get defined? It’s pointless. When it comes to art I like what I like because it appeals to me on some level. That should be enough for anyone. If I like something and you don’t I doubt either of us can change the others mind.

I disagree...

Art seeks to unveil fundamental truths about the human condition. It's not as simple as "like" or "dislike". I wonder if Billy Joel was even trying to create art.... if he was, then he probably failed. It's bad art. There's nothing moving or relatable in the ballad of Brenda and Eddie, or in Uptown Girl. Even Goodnight Saigon sounds generic, as if he read an article in the paper about Vietnam and wrote a song about it.

For many people, Billy Joel's music is enjoyable, fun, light, superficial, entertaining pop. Nice melodies. Nothing complex or challenging that makes you think about what it means to be a human being.

Pop music is "good" when it's popular and sells a lot. If you judge Billy Joel by the measures of the game he was playing, then his music was good.

You’re only stating your own opinion and backing it with your own definitions of what is art, what is good and what is bad.

What about the large number of people who like Billy Joel’s music? You don’t speak for them but you are defining his art as “bad” because (apparently) you don’t like it. So they are wrong in your estimation ?

There is “complex and challenging music” that I don’t like. Am I to say whether it’s good or bad? Absolutely not.

JohnnyGoodyear

I love art! On velvet especially!

...but to quote a good friend of my grandmother's: Everybody's got toast.

Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

@SNystrom said:
@ALB The “point” (as I and others have clearly stated a number of times) is that if you rely on the opinions of others on which to state your case, you have no real opinion at all.

If you let others speak on your behalf It simply reveals your inability to think for yourself @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

Your lack of an ability to compose your own original argument without the crutch of a biased old fart makes you the “invisible hand

Thanks for that input, you charmer!

SNystrom

I find it most amusing that a person who claims to be the worlds second best GeoShred(er) has zero posted evidence of said abilities.

I’m guessing a sour, bitter 75-year-old "get off my lawn" guy Is willing to vouch for your totally unsubstantiated skill set:

😂

JohnnyGoodyear

OK guys, keep it civil. I'm pretty sure Billy wouldn't want to be the (original) cause of closing the thread early

Ben

Great thread JG. Makes for lively conversation.
I would just love to be able to sing like the dude. Good (I like them) lyrics or bad (I don’t.)
Who’s next?

McD

@Ben said:

Who’s next?

Tom Petty?
Bob Marley?
Bowie?
Lou Reed?
David Byrne?
Bruce Hornsby?
Prince?
Tom Waits?

I can't imagine we'll get consensus on any significant creative and if it really matters anyway
for many of these historic figures.

ALB

@SNystrom said:
@ALB The “point” (as I and others have clearly stated a number of times) is that if you rely on the opinions of others on which to state your case, you have no real opinion at all.

If you let others speak on your behalf It simply reveals your inability to think for yourself @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr

Your lack of an ability to compose your own original argument without the crutch of a biased old fart makes you the “invisible hand

But that is just the point: I didn’t and don’t rely on anyone else’s opinion. I stated my opinion in this thread before another person posted the link to the article critical of Billy Joel’s oeuvre. I simply (later) said that I agreed with the article in large part. My own opinion is based on a long history of hearing Billy Joel’s music when it came out. If I happen to agree with some article, it really doesn’t make my own opinion any less authentic. Please don’t make assertions that are verifiably untrue. If you disagree with my opinion (or the article for that matter) feel free to respond to that. You don’t have to resort to these weird ad hominem attacks.

Artj

Writing pop music like he did is not easy at all. Bash him all you want, but listen to the Nylon Curtain.

The guy has good piano chop, can sing while playing in an era without autotune, and is apparently strong in harmony. He writes music with harmony that moves forward, not static like loop music today, and that may be the reason that he is out of fashion. But you can't deny that he's very talented.

kobamoto

I think one has to decide whether the question is has Joel moved many and/or has Joel moved the person asking the question with his music, the answer will always be that he might not have moved the person asking the question, but that he has moved many and by my account that should be enough.

JohnnyGoodyear

@McD said:
@Ben said:

Who’s next?

Tom Petty?
Bob Marley?
Bowie?
Lou Reed?
David Byrne?
Bruce Hornsby?
Prince?
Tom Waits?

I can't imagine we'll get consensus on any significant creative and if it really matters anyway
for many of these historic figures.

All good calls there. And no, we'll never get any consensus, and in a way that's the nature of the human condition: I love the Bay City Rollers, you think they're terrible and rubbish and an insult to Muddy Waters. Quite right

As for who's next, I think we'll give it a little while, but I was (originally) thinking that this would be 'still alive only' series, but I guess some of us might take the task of assessment a little more broadly with those folks who have slipped off ahead of us....we'll see.

Thank you Mister Joel. For my money you were a good songwriter in a post Tin Pan world who committed the sometime sin of straying into the sentimental which is also, probably, what made you so very successful.

This thread is now closed.