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When I create instruments, I invest more time into getting the sample names right so they import and get placed to the desired range automatically.
Also, I doubt that you'll need more than 30 V-layers to get realistic drums/percussion, can you really play as precisely as hitting triggers with the same velocity every time?
Isn't the point precisely that you don't hit triggers with the same velocity every time, so the sound varies subtly every time.
I couldn't hear the difference between even 16 velocities of a snare, but as a guitar player, I have that kind of nuanced ear for guitar, so I can see how a drummer could be that sensitive.
That's how I see it too. I haven't ever needed more than 20 velocity layers in a sampled instrument except once when I had to cram as many samples into one patch (all playing with the same levels) and select different samples by editing note velocities in the MIDI sequence.
I think we're crossing wires here. I'm saying I get it why 128 sampled layers would be desired by someone more highly attuned to the drums than I am.
@rs2000 yeah, I see it's a matter of naming things right so that import works the way you want. It'll be much easier to do mass manipulations of file names on the laptop then transfer as opposed to monkeying with AudioLayer's GUI.
When I'm in practice, I can hit ranges of about 7-10 values of MIDI velocity reliably. You would think, then, that 16 layers would be enough, and 30 more than enough, but years of experience prove otherwise. BFD3 has 128 layers, which you can reduce to 64 to save memory and CPU. The playing difference with a Zendrum is very noticeable and undesirable. I believe what happens is that my errors in strike velocity are randomized around a central range, and this adds a human feel that's very much like what you hear when people play acoustic drums and is sonically appealing. My issue with using the Zendrum with percussion synthesis software has always been that--unexpectedly--they have a less detailed response than 128-layer multisamples, so that they're super-uninspiring to play. Hardware synths like the Nord Drum 3P and Soma Labs Pulsar-23 are fine, so more natural-feel drum synthesis is possible, just not much of a market for it, I guess. I'm hoping Drambo can be tweaked to a nice response.
It's not just me, but I have a very expensive accessory for the Zendrum where the whole cost goes into providing 16-layer response, yet even the sample designer describes it as nothing more than a back up device for "grab and go stuff" where you don't have a laptop. In fact, that's the set of samples I'm trying to adapt now to AudioLayer, though I'd prefer one of those Drum Drops kits if they'll load properly out of the box.
I named my multisampled kick's files GeneralKickL-001-C1,.wav, GeneralKickL-009-C1.wav, etc. When I import all 16, the velocity layers are close enough to use without any issues, but the keyboard range balloons to the entire keyboard (C0-B8, or whatever) for each sample. How do I import so that each sample is in a zone one key wide, at C1?
You cannot control that except by also importing B0 and C#1 samples at the same time.
The auto mapper will always fill remaining spaces which is what most people usually want.
Thanks. Normally, I'd be like most people, I guess, and import entire drum kits at a time. For now though, I'm just testing things out, so I won't panic if I have one, massive bass drum kit.
@blipson I have the vintage funk and memphis soul packs from Drum Drops and they imported smoothly into Audiolayer. I used the SFZ since it contains patches for the full kits as well as patches for all individual drums, so I can open these in separate AU instances as Audiolayer does not have multi output yet.
Thanks for that. I'd really rather go with prepackaged stuff. Looking through Drum Drops kit descriptions, only Vintage Funk, Tony Allen, and 60s Motown explicitly say "SFZ" in their descriptions. But you have Memphis Soul. Does this mean that all their stuff probably comes in SFZ format?
I got some Drum Drops kits. How do you load them? No matter where I place things, the samples are all not found when I load the exs file. I also got some Voxengo kit pieces, whose sfz files enable them to load fine. I'm able to look at the contents of the exs file, and even though they're in a form I shouldn't edit directly, I see that the paths to the samples aren't what I expect. Parts of the path might be variables for an exs loader, so maybe that's not a problem.
@wim @rs2000 @McD - Summoning the AudioLayer experts...
I thought the velocity was pretty much the volume when you play at a specific speed. Couldn’t you just interpolate it based on the velocity information? Or are there added artefacts when you play at a higher velocity?
MIDI Notes have a Velocity parameter and instruments that are sensitive to this parameter will do 2 things:
select a specific sample to trigger based upon layers as defined in the sampler
adjust the volume of the playback engine
By using layering in the sampleset a soft note will sound mellow while a hard strike might play a very bright sample like a Rhodes E-Piano when you bang on it.
You can take a single sample and using velocity just have it play back with 127 volume levels but the tone will be consistent.
There one other interesting variables in sampled instruments are "round robin" of multiple samples when the sale note it pressed to avoid the "machine gun" effect and adding more reality.
There are also attack and release samples that can simulate the hammer noise and the clamping sound of the key release.
But velocity is just a volume number and not much more than that. The sampler details add the real extras to make an instrument come alive. And building complex sample sets is a tricky business but a skill you can get better at with practice. But one sampler and another might have completely different features...
so loading an SFZ, SF2 or EXS instrument might produce several slightly different instruments depending on the features supported.
I'm not much of a sampling expert... but there are some here. I won't sic the mob on them but some have done a lot with this dark art.
I went crazy sampling for a bit but it lost it's appeal for me. I am starting to think about sampling interesting "noises" and kitchen stuff that has some tone. Muted pianos intrigue me too. I might poke about for some piano wave files that could be zoned early in Audio Layer or Obsidian.
EXS format is a black box. It is possible that the files specify paths in a way that AL can't read. Do they also supply an sfz for the samples?
There is a Windows app that can translate from EXS to SFZ that also has a Mac version (it is the windows app wrapped in an open-source windows emulator). You can use it in demo mode for 30 days. I can't remember the name. I used it last year to convert some sfz files to EXS in the days before AL imported sfz files.
What happens when you try to load the EXS?
You might also want to share the EXS with the developer to see why it isn't working. It might take a few emails
@VirSyn
@McD - Great read. Thanks for taking the time to write that. Round Robin is something I recently learnt because of using Audiolayer. What iOS apps would you recommend for opening each of these sound formats? (SFZ, SF2, and EXS). Also, are there any other file formats besides these three?
Also, I made a sampling mega thread a few minutes ago if you’re looking for some more content that shares my thought process - https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/39120/an-open-thread-about-managing-samples-loops-and-midi
Since it was the last day of Drum Drops's 50% off sale, I got all the ones that had EXS format, assuming that would work out of the box, which was a mistake. It seems that only some kits come with SFZ format, so I'll try them first. @gosnote mentioned success with Memphis Soul and Vintage Funk.
When loading EXS, I get the normal load process without any error notification, but no samples get listed during the process. Then each zone shows the name of its sample in read with a note that it's missing. I've tried placing the EXS file in different places compared to the samples folder, but nothing's worked. @espiegel123 , yeah, I think I'll try EXS-to-SFZ as possibly a quick solution to get the non-SFZ kits working.
Take a look in AL's sample library to see if the samples are there. If not, maybe manually importing them into a new dummy instrument will allow the sample to be seen
@blipson, @Samflash3, @espiegel123, @McD and others:
If anyone wants EXS translated to SFZ for use in AudioLayer or Lyra inside Auria, just zip the EXS files without samples and post them, I can try to convert them with the tools I have.
Worth a try.
I bought some drum drops packs too. Didn’t work out as well in the beginning. Eg I bought the modern funk pack and had the same problem as you. It worked for me after I moved the exs file out of the folder into the „upper folder“. Sry, but I can’t describe it better right now (english is not my native language). After that AL loaded all samples and created a directory and an instrument. But somehow AL only recognized the Hihats from the pack although it copied all files even the kickdrums etc. into the sample folder.
Not quite sure whats going on with AL because the same exs file loaded correctly into plogues sforzando on my laptop.
@rs2000 Wow, thanks. I bought 14 Drum Drops kits, but only 5 have SFZ files. I've got one to try. What's the most convenient way to share a zip file?
@WTK I could continue trying to move the exs file's location, but if you're saying the best you can do is just get the hi-hats loaded, that's pretty disappointing. Maybe this exs-sfz conversion will provide more capability.
@blipson: I don't think he is suggesting changing the EXS file location, I think he is suggesting that you may need to reorganize where the samples are in relation to the EXS file. This can also happen with SFZs. If you haven't done so, try this:
Now try to import the EXS file. If sample folder that goes with the EXS has a lot of nesting, you may need to move all the samples so that they are directly in "myDrumKit1Samples" rather than nested.
@espiegel123 Actually, that's what I meant to say, and I did do that, but now I'll try it without nesting.
Tbh this was the first time that it happened to me. Other (free) exs samples from the internet worked flawlessly.
And sry for my confusing explanation. Espiegel123 explained it better.
Here is a screenshot from my icloud folder before I imported it into AL.
They're usually quite small, so you can attach them to your post here.
When I try to attach a .zip file, the system here says, "File format is not allowed." So I've renamed the .zip file for Drum Drops Vintage 1965 Ludwig Super to .jpg and attached it here:
@WTK That's where I tried placing the .exs file, but the samples aren't found.
What you posted only has EXS Files without the samples. EXS Files are just descriptions for the sampler of what samples to use and how to use them (I.e. how to map the samples). So, your problem is probably that you tried importing the EXS file without the sample files being visible to AudioLayer. See my description upthread of what you should try.
I posted the zip of EXS files for conversion to SFZ format. I certainly hope @rs2000 doesn't need the samples to convert the format because that would be a 1GB attachment.
As I said, after reading your suggestions, I've tried putting the EXS file in various locations in relation to the samples--in the same folder as the samples, one level up, etc.--but AL never finds the samples. Meanwhile, I've loaded Voxengo drum pieces via SFZ file without a problem, so that verifies that I'm not completely lost. Next, I will try your suggestion to eliminate all the nesting and re-try the EXS file, but I haven't done that yet.
It will be interesting to see if he is able to open the EXS files and convert them without the samples.
Maybe it's just a matter of doing a global search-and-replace on the path names for each sample rather than anything involving the sample file itself. You can do that with SFZ in a text editor, but EXS isn't in text format, so you need a specialized editor.