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Comments
It's just a matter of attitude.
IMHO it's not hardware vs software that makes the difference but rather how you use it.
If you decide to sit down and make music with exactly one groovebox for a few hours, it doesn't make too much of a difference if it's an app or a hardware box.
Both require the same patience, the same creativity, the same workarounds for "doing the impossible".
IOS and grooveboxes are often spoken of as if they were different versions of the same thing and on paper they are to a degree yet in reality (to me at least) they couldn't be more different: on iPad I permanently feel like I'm "on the other side of a window" and with physical hardware I feel as if I'm part of the machine itself / fully integrated as an experience.
I love iOS and continue to use it but as convenient as it is (and as cumbersome as owning hardware units can be) iOS is very much a Virtual experience as opposed to a physical one and that difference isn't slight.
One last personal note: when I do the research on the electronic music I love the most it’s usually made with hardware as source. Obviously that’s no universal case or anything but just something I notice.
One side benefit of hardware is you own it. iOS apps you just pay for the right to use, and with iOS that right can disappear if a developer abandons their developer account. Or, if you don't realize an app is no longer supported and upgrade the OS one version too far or have to do a restore on the device and are forced to update the OS.
You can sell hardware, albeit usually at a loss, sometimes many, many years later. Check out what ER-1's from last century still go for on eBay ... let alone something like an original 808 or 909.
I can't deal with the expense and clutter of a load of hardware, so apps and a couple of controllers is all I care to own. But to categorically say that hardware is inferior because it doesn't fit one's personal preference seems narrow-minded to me.
Not that I care though. I'm just bored.
@Proppa I'd say that highly depends on the hardware.
Some boxes totally depend on small LCD screens plus a few buttons and/or knobs, others have lots of controls and get along with little or no menu diving.
Touching glass is a matter of getting used to, I think.
But indeed, the touch experience can be very different between different apps, some aren't even optimized for touch operation at all.
AUM, Drambo, MiRack, GR-16 and Gadget together blow my hardware Grooveboxen out of the water with their collective power and versatility ... though sometimes my eyes just need a break from the screen., so I probably spend 25-30% of my music time on HW. (Deluge and Machinedrum UW+ for now, maybe Digitone eventually)
The convenience of on board IO and unique workflows are the biggest draw of HW to me. I like how different styles of UI can impact creative direction. I especially love devices that allow you to dive deep on sound design and impart its own character on the sound, like MD.
If I could only keep one platform though, it’d definitely be iPad. (Maybe with a midi controller like Bitstream 3x to replicate that HW tactility)
Not to belittle your gripes, but that sounds like limitations not necessarily "bugs". It's normal for grooveboxes and synths with limited DSP to reset when changing patterns or patches. This happens among various brands often which is why there's usually additional outputs for using global external FX in a live situation.
Also BPM and sync are 2 different things. One refers to tempo and the other to phase. Something can't be -0.3bpm out of sync. Either the displayed tempo is incorrect or the sequencer could be at the correct tempo but start late and drift out of sync gradually until noticeable. That could be how well the midi clocks interact with each other. I hope that you compared using different clocks as the master, searched for settings to offset sync, filtered out any unneeded midi data being transmitted or received, and inspected the quality of your midi cables. All those things can affect this.
Usually true, though not necessarily a bad thing imo, if it’s good enough to begin with.
Deluge is definitely one of the outliers in the HW world. There aren’t many devs in the mobile and desktop world that roll out new features at the pace Rohan has over the last couple years.
also, some older hardware is having new life breathed into it by indie devs, like this Megacommand project for Machinedrum:
https://github.com/jmamma/MegaCommand_Design
Black Box looks cool
This video shows what the advantage of hardware is for me personally.
Those quick changes, subtle knob turning. I can’t do this on an ipad.
IDK... my mac mini has been doing crackles and pops from audio interface randomly for which I believed was not psu-ed audio interface... them I remember read somewhere that users experienced this as bug since high sierra and my mind started to wake up...
Mic permission on Mojave made me suspect a little more...
I keep the mac for Logic/garageband (and some desktop duties) and the iPad for Lumbeat and some music learning apps (like tonality) but I’m considering get a dedicated groovebox like mc707 or Djs1000 to add it to my rc505 (which will substitute iOS loopers on stage for sure).
iDevices get hot and disconnect themselves and mac doing these weird crackles aren’t a music tool anymore.
I have to do some researching and testing but I prefer a limited but designed specifically for tool than a multipurpose but buggy due Apple “ditch the artists” policies.
My 2cents...
I had the same issue with my 2018 Mini I got last year. Had to run a command line process to permanently remove the clock, including the background process that updates it—which fixed the issue for the most part. Still a couple applications that produce the occasional crackle, but most are clear now.
I think Thunderbolt interfaces don’t have the issue at all, since the problem has something to do with the USB bus being interrupted. I somewhat regret getting a USB MOTU interface now :-/
Right now, I'm buying apps and hardware, trying them out against the knowledge and attitude, mindset and workflow that I have and seeing how they fit. I see them as pieces of a jigaw and my music as the whole thing. I pick them up, look at the edges and see how they fit. Sometimes I just mash them into a space with the heel of my ear.
I will research into that but it’s weird... I use a mac to AVOID these, usually windows, shit...
Here’s my gear list:
Sold:
I know each of these machines like the back of my hand, but I only use an old iPhone 6s for production and mastering.
I carry a super-studio in my pocket everywhere I go.
😀 I had almost forgotten about this. The utter rage after waiting for an instrument to hit the shops, shelling out the best part of a grand for it only to discover this abject failing. Not a word about it in the exclusive magazine reviews either. Then to top it all off the manufacturers (ROLAND!!! being one of the main culprits) tell you - ‘well actually they are designed this way’.
Note: I’m going through a Major hardware (re)honeymoon so with that in mind:
While not necessarily more capable hardware is always more tactile by definition which to me is such a major currency in itself.
I agree yet found machines a thrill to engage with straight off and after this many years still find touchscreens to feel way more “distant” in comparison.
Not a knock on iOS at all - more a salute to the Machines in all their tactile glory. This also might be a generation thing: I was born to machines while my son can maneuver my iPhone at age 3 and delights in it.
To both these points and the OP topic specifically: I love Novation’s iOS ‘Groovebox’ in pretty equal measure to their hardware ‘Circuit’ even though they’re completely unrelated in concept, UI and virtual / physical form factor.
I know, right! That’s why I switched from PC to Mac last year, having too many of these problems on my windows 10 box. Go figure!
Anyway I tried to find the guide for you that I used for my fix, but came up short but not empty handed.
Here’s a terminal command that should (temporarily) do the trick:
sudo launchctl unload /System/Library/LaunchDaemons/com.apple.timed.plist
There were one or two other steps I had to take to permanently remove the timed daemon, which I can’t find yet..so you might have to re-apply that command every time you reboot until you can figure that part out.
Wish I was more fluent in Mac OS underpinnings and could help ya more.
I find the machines way more reliable too. They crash from time to time, and the OP-Z gets weird fairly often, but they never crash and lose work, or have the midi between them stop working, or just refuse to send audio to each other.
Whenever I get an iPad involved, unless it’s a single app, then I’m usually just waiting for a glitch to turn my music session into a computer-troubleshooting session.
Thanks mate! I will try and research by myself. Anyways I will probably go the standalone box (Djs1000, MPCone, MC707 or new hopefully novation cirtcuit sampler?) and just forget about Apple definetly for live gigs. For studio it has some pita but I can survive but for Live gigs it's a no go for me.
Drambo plus AUM plus a MIDI controller will blow them away. I just built my own 8 track groove machine in Drambo, assigned controller pads to tracks / pattern changes, built up 7 tracks of beats / loops and left track 8 for live improv, ran it in AUM and recorded the whole thing. Beautiful.
(and that was without any PLock / tweaking. That's my next investigation)
The closest thing I came to buying a groove box was Model:Cycles from Elektron. But then Drambo came along..
However, as much as I love Drambo and what it can do, I still might get the Model:Cycles. There's something to be said for having a ready-built, LIMITED machine. God knows I need limitations after buying so many apps.
Hi mate.
Its rad right.
I mapped 3 controllers and have a loop record system also.
Drambo even made me use my controllers as I was always just using screen mostly.
Tell me are there any hardware grooveboxes where you can hold down or latch an erase button while playing notes and recording to replace previously recorded notes in a looped pattern? Ya know like all grooveboxes, software or hardware, should have?
Analog Rytm and TR8s will both allow that. Model:cycles doesn’t... or if it does I haven’t read about or figured it out.
I’m pretty sure the OG 808 and 909 were some of the first hw that would work this way... seems to be one of those areas where a new technology keeps ideas from the past (ie thinking of the sequencer as a running tape loop, thus an erase head idea).
Most of them have a dedicated erase or clear button that you hold down with the corresponding key/pad to erase notes or quickly clear that track/instrument. It's a pretty standard feature on any sequencing hardware. Sometimes it requires a shift-combo depending on the device.
MPC Hardware workflow for Win and Mac without the actual hardware:
http://www.izmar.nl
Whoa! Has anyone tried this? If so how is it?
I like the Novation Circuit quite a bit. I have thought about just selling it at various points, but don‘t think I ever will. It has a lot of problems but it‘s advantage is it gets you doing things fast and you don‘t have to fiddle with computers endlessly.
Although, you can‘t make patches on the device itself. So, you need to fiddle with computers some to get the device in a state you like it. I honesty made 12 or so synth patches and just keep using those and switch up sample packs for the drums.
I have no experience with other grooveboxes.
Yes, Circuit is super intuitive.
Hardware will always do catch up with software no matter what, which to me is a major advantage point.
It is interesting that no one thinks of iPad as a hardware box. In theory having Samplr on full screen and using the screen as an input surface is no different from samplr being released as a hardware box with a touch screen. I guess this wouldn’t work as well with mpc style samplers because onscreen pads are different from rubber ones albeit they could have some potential advantages such as position CC trigger or tap and swipe to modulate functionality. It’s odd how little this has been embraced by devs. We keep seeing those tired pads and keyboards instead of super intuitive assigneable, swipeable playing surfaces.
I’m puzzled why there is such a perceived gap between hardware and iPad software? To me at least in theory the gap between hardware and Idevices is radically smaller than between hardware and a keyboard and mouse type computer.
I guess there is also the fact of having non music software acting as a distractor from the music focus. That falls into self discipline category though as when you’re making music with hardware you most likely will have your phone sitting next to you anyway.
Workflow?
Ready to use rigid system of hardware versus the need to put a tailored system together on iOS using AUM or Audiobus. This is a major point I think, as I keep reading comments of how folks would rather learn one app as opposed to jumping from one solution to another, none of them complete. Yet couldn’t this be said about hardware as well? No hardware box is the same and you’d hardly be expected to finish an album on a groove box (not that it can’t be done!). So back to focus and self discipline again. Maybe coupled with a plan/vision (or the lack of), which arguably applies to both hardware and software.
Stability?
Another major point. I wonder why hardware clock sync is almost always spot on and sync in iOS software so iffy? System resources shared with non music applications? Devs not being able to give system priority to their app? I guess there’s also the fact of different developers favouring different approaches to what they believe the best way to implement clock sync and midi in general is? So the lack of unique standard for all? So many questions.
I have made my choice since buying my first iPad. Being a person of wide interest I just cannot afford to buy the equivalent in hardware other than the fact of portability and set up. Going to my studio and firing up all of my gear versus tapping on my host and loading a session is an easy choice for me. I get GAS all the time and keep reminding myself that every time I buy a new box it also means that I will need to change a patch for a specific patch when playing live, need another input on my mixer and finally there’s no way I can work on a project involving that piece of hardware in the 5 mins before lunch when I’m sat on the couch without the need to plug everything together. Practicality, or lack of, sometimes is the difference between making music and not making it at all and I know which I’d rather have.
Sorry about this uncoordinated post. I was trying to cover as many points as possible without getting lost in editing.