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Comments
I hear you. I too got burned by the mbp keyboard (was just in warranty thank god) but my guess would be that all the significant players (avid, adobe, etc) have been working on it for a while. when the transition from powerpc to intel happened, it took about a year for protools and all the main plugins to be ported across. granted, they probably shared a lot of code with the windows versions.
and sure, waiting would be the sane thing to do anyway. it usually takes apple a couple of generations to really get a new product solid.
Yes, and by the time you’re done tinkering, all of the musicians have gone home. Believe me, I really wanted it to work but the hassle and investment was big and took away from making music. No frills and light mixing work also don’t describe paid work with deadlines either.
For someone doing regular computing tasks though, Linux is great. I haven’t used it in a while now but it was my daily OS for about 5 years.
Mhh, for me it is kind of a thing who will deliver first what i need. iOS developers which finally give me the tools i still miss or developers already give me the tools on mac and migrating to ARM when it really happens since i doubt i would buy a new X-86 mac now anymore and wait what happens in next 1-2 years.
At the end there is def. one winner again, Apple!
So iOS still lacks a lot tools for me while mac has maybe not the best future (or even a better one?).
At least my current tools will still work for many years so i am not in a hurry anyway.
I mean it really depends upon the person and their skill level. I setup a Linux audio workstation in 2013 that used a dedicated audio distribution and it just worked out of the box. Really didn't have to do much to it. I used it for mixing, recording and sound design (in SuperCollider and CSound). I didn't (and still don't) love Ardour, but it got the job done. It was stable, with low (like incredibly low) latency. In my case I was lucky in that the hardware I had was class compliant and so just worked.
For me it's always been more about the software. But like I said, that's changing. Bitwig works fine on Linux, as does Reaper. The windows emulation stuff works really well now, so you can even (apparently) run the Native Instruments stuff on Linux (I have a friend who's doing that). Definitely not for everyone, but I think so long as you download a distribution tuned for audio and are the kind of person who wouldn't think twice about customizing their Reaper workflow it can work very well. And I think that a very nice turnkey system could be built in Linux.
Apple must already be working with the big names. Adobe, Microsoft. Possibly Ableton too? I’ll admit, that last one is wishful thinking.
Also, audio units should work, right? Plus all Apple’s own software, which has probably been running on ARM test machines for years at this point.
I’m ready for a new iMac, but I wonder if ARM will come to the portables first? On the one hand, MacBooks would seem to see the most benefit from the power:performance ratio. On the other hand, the iMac sells much less, and wouldn’t be such a disaster if things go wrong.
Plus, there’s the rumor of a new iMac at WWDC this month.
I wonder if the transition to ARM will give iOS audio developers a potential jump start?
Porting apps to Mac OS using Catalyst requires lots of work to get them looking and behaving anything like ‘proper’ native Mac apps.
Plugins won’t have anywhere near the same issues as they generally don’t have most of the native UI elements that make iPad apps feel weird on the Mac. There are no text boxes,
Scroll bars etc and the lack of menu bars, key commands and niceties like scripting don’t really apply either. Your average iPad Auv3 UI would work fine on the Mac. Some of logics new plugins look more like iPad than Mac UIs as it is. 🤫
If the catalyst tools are sufficient for Auv3 plugins it might be easier for a developer of iOS plugins to make Mac audio units than It will be for an existing Mac only developer to convert from intel to ARM. I suppose it depends on the technologies that the developer uses. Many older plugins may not be worth porting.
Also the iOS developers are already used to the App Store method of sales (and are used to having to accept Apple’s cut) and would likely be ok with selling in the relevant App Store and not have to worry about selling direct and all the issues that brings (copy protection, licensing, online store fees, credit card processing, etc).
There’s a potential opportunity there for currently iOS only developers that are quick off the mark to make inroads into the plugin market and become new leaders even.
It’s interesting to see developers like Eventide and fabfilter make the jump to iOS. I wonder if being ready for ARM Macs early was part of that plan?
@swarmboy
They've never designed a high performance CPU. They do have inhouse expertise, but ARM chips are not designed for high performance work (they lack good intrinsics, which are important for video/audio - as well as the kind of caching stuff that Intel does for multi-core work). For laptops some of that may not matter, though I think for people who want to run a million plugins on their DAW it may, but for the professional desktop users it will. Designing CPUs at that level is extremely difficult, failure prone and time consuming. It's a far tougher problem than those that Apple has dealt with before. They may overcome them, but they could also fail messily. We shall see.
Going down this path certainly makes sense for Apple, but it's higher risk than people seem to realize. Far higher risk than when they moved from PowerPC.
@Turntablist
An emulator will mean a significant slow down. 30-50%, depending upon the code.
For complex complicated code porting it to another platform is always difficult. You trigger new bugs, parts of your code are no longer performant (because the CPU operates differently) and there will some of your code that has assembler, or CPU specific stuff, in it. There will also be code that relies upon libraries that will not be ported to ARM. And of course there will be old code (such as plugins) that will never get ported to the new system because the developer is no longer around.
I'm describing my own experience of using it. Compared to Linux and OSX I find it unreliable and time consuming. And I really hate the new interface. Also Windows does not run on ARM today (a subset does, but not the subset that most of the world uses it)
+1
I know some good desktop developers like Cytomic f.e. have their tools mainly ready (or already preparing) for ARM, even they not selling iOS apps (yet). So it might that more than we thought already have tested this for the final day.
Of course its up to Apple to give developers the right tools and it seems that Apple is not always a great help (more the opposite often).
But it also might more easy to create new tools for new platforms instead of trying to port old code (hello N.I.) to something. Sadly some of the old things are still my favorites and have no counterparts on other platforms.
Also some of my other favorite desktop developers are also really small teams or single independent developers (like many on iOS) and might have no resources for handling a new platform or not wanting to enter the app store paradigm.
I hope it does all work out, and fast. Then instead of spending loads of money on a new iPad for music, I’ll get a base model Air laptop and then do everything on that.
For me though, the current MacBook Pro range provides the graphic and CPU power I need for work stuff, without worrying about hardware or software compatibility issues.
Wouldn’t surprise me to see a massive rush to buy up the old models, before the new batch start shipping. Better the devil you know...
Reason 19 with new support for ARM? (But still no retina UI).
Plugin developers who use JUCE will be fine. The problem is the plugins that were not developed with JUCE.
However, huge difference however between updating a plugin and updating a complex bit of code developed over 20+ years, where there are going to be parts of your codebase that noone is familiar with, or even really understands how it works anymore....
As "side effect" i would hope more great iOS apps coming to mac since it looks that Catalyst isn´t that great or developers have no interest at all. I love my iOS apps but often i would love to have things like Zeeon, Drambo or other really unique iOS apps on mac running as AU inside Logic side by side with my favorite mac tools.
I would f.e. happily pay 100 for Drambo. But it might stay that we have to use 2 platforms to combine our favorite tools which is not the biggest problem but i personally really like just one machine with everything.
I also adopted maybe too much to a notebook workflow (but i never ever would even think about to use a desktop set-up) since for me it is simple the most powerful AND mobile tool since i have no need for an audio interface, midi hardware controller or any other add on beside a headphone.
An iPad with mouse support and keyboard with the same options and support (like using the qwerty as midi input in all DAWs, trackpad as MPE/velocity controller etc.) might offer quite the same but still it is of course much better as tablet but i need a lot more additional dongles/hardware/workarounds to do the same there and while multi-touch is brilliant often, Apple cut off some amazing things like 3D touch and for playing live i just hate flat glass. Some exceptions like Animoog, ThumbJam and a few others are still amazing to play (as long as i need only 3-4 note chords or expressive mono sounds) but i can just play a lot more expressive on my computer keyboard as on 99% of my iOS apps on-screen keyboards. Muscle memory might play such a big part here.
Things like even play programmed chords via a single key just feels strange for me on iPhones/iPad since i really need some movement under my fingers. Of course that is just my problem
Also a reason i just would prefer now to buy sample libraries which uses their own new player (like Spitfire Player or Orchestral Tools Sine etc.) where the chances are much higher things would get ported to all platforms.
In the meantime indeed so much desktop tools still have no proper support for high dpi and/or different screen sizes.
In terms of GUI iOS seems already lightyears ahead.
It’ll be an interesting situation with organisations that have both an iPadOS and a macOS product, such as Affinity, and Korg with their Gadget.
I know benchmarks aren't the same performance, but the geekbench scores of an iPad Pro are comparable to a MacBook Pro, despite running at significantly lower power and clock speed, with very little heat dissipation, etc. and even ignoring the raw numbers, the detail : for transcoding video, etc is also comparable.
Further, the rate of performance increase from one A-series SoC to the next is, when compared to intel's is pretty astonishing.
I realise that risc vs cisc is a significant hurdle to overcome in terms of porting code, but powerpc was a risc architecture, and for a long time it smoked intel for tasks involving video and audio.
I think an ARM chip for a macbook pro (which at this point is basically an iPad pro with an expensive, and rather fragile, keyboard) makes a lot of sense. They're devices optimized for size and battery life, with few cooling options. That's where ARM really shines. The same would be true for iMacs, which are basically a laptop embedded in a monitor.
Where ARM has never been tested is for higher powered stuff (think desktop computing, or even render farms), and that's where Intel's tech (and also increasingly AMD) shines. They have more power available to them, they don't have to worry so much about cooling. An intel chip in a small laptop is constantly throttling - on a desktop not so much. Can ARM scale to that degree, nobody really knows, but I think there are reasons to be skeptical. For example, video game consoles have not embraced ARM chips (they use AMD chips) - and like Apple they have the resources to make their own ARM chips if that's something they desired.
Apple may not care any more about the professional video and audio market, but that's an area where I could see ARM chips being really underwhelming. After effects, or really demanding photoshop work, may not work so well. But given most of their market is now consumer and prosumer, this may not matter to them.
And for the record, I hope this works. I would love to see ARM be a viable product for high end machines. I just think it's a bigger challenge than people think.
The ARM chip could be added to allow users to seamlessly run iOS/iPadOS on the hardware without emulation...
I think it'll be a similar moment as when Apple showed macOS running on Intel Hardware...
But will they 'crush' the Intel chip with the ARM when it comes to desktop performance like they did with the PowerPC vs Intel?
June 22 is not that far away
Best would be to compare a large Logic project if and when it runs on ARM
But 6GB RAM would not cut it and not sure how ARM scales with more demanding tasks.
I could bet they start with a macbook air or so.
Hopefully it sucks not like the T2 chip.
More important......will they remove the headphone jack
Most likely the Air Pods Studio will use a USB-C chord to charge the cans and that will be 'low latency option'.
I mean it'll likely be a $499 premium for a 'Beats Clone' with an Apple logo...
Please no, Beats are so bad that it is criminal.
But hey, Dr. Dre is still part of the Apple board so that sh*t must be good LOL
I do like the sound of my AirPod 2's but the latency drives me nuts for anything remotely realtime...
...so I still use the lightning EarPods when I use my iPhone 8 as a field-recorder with TwistedWave which allows Mic Selection and monitor with the EarPods and record with the Top, Bottom or Back Mic...
It could, but I think it highly likely they’ll fix it so there’s an additional cost to the user.
Otherwise customers will just abandon more expensive desktop software in their droves.
Why would Apple care about third party software?
Also as long as there does not exist software i need, what could someone leave?
Don’t understand the second question, but a computer is only as good as the software it can run. So if software companies and developers supporting both platforms start taking a 90% hit in their profits courtesy of Apple, either they’ll put up their app prices, stop making apps, find a way to make a combo app etc., or abandon the Mac platform completely.
Apple will find a way to make you pay.
I just mean i just could abandon my more expensive notebook software if there is a similar and cheaper app store version.
In a worst case it could end with not much developers support for ARM macs, in this case i indeed would maybe switch back to iPad with keyboard. Maybe that is Apple´s masterplan.
Or i use the latest intel macbooks for the next decade.
Or also it could be ARM mac and iOS apps will be sold via the same store for the same price.
Or maybe it will be all a smooth transition.
No one knows. But you are right, the software i want is where i go with at the end, i do not care really about the OS or chip architecture.
I agree with the last sentence 100%. I wish there was something that just booted right into a DAW and your plugins just were installed, without ever seeing the OS.
I use a UA apollo x8 and have softube console 1 on the way, so linux wouldnt work for me now. I bet it would be fun to make a mac that did only audio though and where you could strip out all of the nonsense you didn’t need. Kind of like people used to do with windows xp (I used the “performance” edition at one point) and like is done with the audio distros (AV Linux was the one that I had the most success with). But right now I need to work with mainstream stuff for the world I’m in.
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Working with ilok reauthorizations and such all day today for the songwriter I assist, I would love that. Copy protection is such a pain. I know why it has to exist but I havent used a cracked anything in a long long time because it’s so much better without that. I’m working on getting all of the stuff off of his machine that’s he’s collected over the years, unknowingly in some cases. Apple did well in that part of things.
Depends what you’re doing/workflow. For me, I wouldn’t want to do my day job (web/graphic design & development) on an iPad - even though I probably could. With hundreds of projects and clients built up over the years, it’d be a nightmare with the iOS file system. Likewise music making - I prefer using a desktop DAW, though iPads are good for initial ideas and sound creation.
Can’t say running apps on a Mac particularly excites me either, since most are designed for a touchscreen, and I’d be missing the point running them on a laptop. As it is I can already integrate them into my DAW via IDAM, which does as much as I need it to.
But yeah, be interesting to see what they come up with.